Luke's 1990 Rx7 Build
05-19-13, 10:35 AM
#52
I'm so lost...lol, are you joking? Because taking thewird's whole post into context, it makes perfect sense. A dyno can simulate, but it can't replicate. Not to diminish the value of a dyno tune, many ppl go on that alone. However, tuning on the track is real time, and reveals the engine's true behaviour, especially after several laps with the engine working very hard. You simply can't replicate those conditions on a dyno. Or at least that's how I see it, lol.
05-19-13, 11:23 AM
#53
Good job with the car Luke!
Joe is being serious.
Thats the difference between a good tuner and a bad one. Fine tuning can always be done after the fact based on the logs. If you are tuning that close to the wire on a dyno full well knowing the conditions aren't exact, then the tuner is a retard. There's simply no better way to get your tune 95% there than to dyno tune. It would take way longer at the track and like Joe mentioned:
"Tuning at the track is a waste of track time and money in my opinion, not to mention a hazard for everyone else at the track that day."
I'm so lost...lol, are you joking? Because taking thewird's whole post into context, it makes perfect sense. A dyno can simulate, but it can't replicate. Not to diminish the value of a dyno tune, many ppl go on that alone. However, tuning on the track is real time, and reveals the engine's true behaviour, especially after several laps with the engine working very hard. You simply can't replicate those conditions on a dyno. Or at least that's how I see it, lol.
Thats the difference between a good tuner and a bad one. Fine tuning can always be done after the fact based on the logs. If you are tuning that close to the wire on a dyno full well knowing the conditions aren't exact, then the tuner is a retard. There's simply no better way to get your tune 95% there than to dyno tune. It would take way longer at the track and like Joe mentioned:
"Tuning at the track is a waste of track time and money in my opinion, not to mention a hazard for everyone else at the track that day."
05-19-13, 11:35 AM
#54
Well I believe we were referring to the dyno/street tune as the base tune. And "tuning at the track" I was referring to logging & adjusting off the track as I'm sure thewird was also. You would obviously not create your base tune on a track, or tune while you're on the track, that would be ridiculous. I'm referring to the final tune. I'm not even claiming to be in Joe's or thewird's league, to the best of my knowledge they are both proven incredible tuners. Essentially, what I'm saying is that a dyno tune alone isn't enough. I'm sure every tuner thinks differently regarding different aspects of the process. But that doesn't mean anyone's methods should be ridiculed, especially when he is a proven tuner. Even if I didn't agree with thewird I would say the same. That's just my 2 cents anyway, lol.
05-19-13, 12:04 PM
#55
^ And this is exactly the reason why the rotary has a bad name. Everyone thinks they know the answer better then the next guy and when an engine blows everyone stands back and says ah well its nobody's fault, its just a rotary. When in reality, that problem can very well be identified and it has nothing to do with the engine. Blown engines shouldn't happen, period. Car's that drive like a bag of **** shouldn't happen, period.
EVERYTHING changes when the car comes off the dyno. Boost goes up, temperatures come down, components are no longer heat soaked, everything just works different. Now any good tuner will of course take that into consideration and leave some safety margin for those changes. But if your trying to get a perfect tune, a dyno tune isn't going to cut it.
Now having said that every tuner will have his own tuning theories and practices. Mine is to have a car run as close to stock as possible with regards to streetability and make power reliably without blowing up no matter what the conditions. In my opinion this cannot be done soley on a dyno which is why I push street tuning so much. My sole interest is to have properly running rotaries and I go out of my way to make things run right which no other shop does. Joe obviously has his own theories and that's fine, its the reason I don't bother replying to his smirk remarks cause its a waste of time.
My track record speaks for itself, every car I tune is still running today without failure. I can count every car that had an issue on fingers of one hand and directly explain why it did what it did. I don't just tune a car, I find its problems and suggest changes to make it better and more reliable. I don't need to blatantly advertise on the forums that I tune, my customers do that for me. Not that I want new customers, I'm stupidly busy this year that I'm realizing I don't have the proper time for my own car.... I had to bail on the VIR trip to for the rotary test day with Modified which I really wanted to go to cause too many people are depending on me for their cars to take time off.
thewird
EVERYTHING changes when the car comes off the dyno. Boost goes up, temperatures come down, components are no longer heat soaked, everything just works different. Now any good tuner will of course take that into consideration and leave some safety margin for those changes. But if your trying to get a perfect tune, a dyno tune isn't going to cut it.
Now having said that every tuner will have his own tuning theories and practices. Mine is to have a car run as close to stock as possible with regards to streetability and make power reliably without blowing up no matter what the conditions. In my opinion this cannot be done soley on a dyno which is why I push street tuning so much. My sole interest is to have properly running rotaries and I go out of my way to make things run right which no other shop does. Joe obviously has his own theories and that's fine, its the reason I don't bother replying to his smirk remarks cause its a waste of time.
My track record speaks for itself, every car I tune is still running today without failure. I can count every car that had an issue on fingers of one hand and directly explain why it did what it did. I don't just tune a car, I find its problems and suggest changes to make it better and more reliable. I don't need to blatantly advertise on the forums that I tune, my customers do that for me. Not that I want new customers, I'm stupidly busy this year that I'm realizing I don't have the proper time for my own car.... I had to bail on the VIR trip to for the rotary test day with Modified which I really wanted to go to cause too many people are depending on me for their cars to take time off.
thewird
05-30-13, 09:41 PM
#61
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada, Ontario, Kitchener
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update
Installed the stock clutch fan and shroud for the time being. Will eventually get a good efan but cant afford one at the moment and the stock set up should be plenty for my needs. Had it running for a little shy of an hour a few days ago and it stayed at 182F. ...and then some neighbour who i have never before seen in my life(so he cant live that close) came up to me in a bitchy mood telling me to shut off my car because it was "loud and annoying like a harly" or he was going to call the cops.
I also made some ducting around the intercooler, oil cooler, and rad. Made it out of house duct. I will put up pictures when i have a chance.
Bought wheels and tires. R888 on RPF1 wheels, Thanks Ian!
Still have to change the rear brakes and bleed the lines with racing brake fluid and it will be ready for tune.
Last edited by Lucas FC; 05-30-13 at 09:44 PM.
05-31-13, 09:11 PM
#64
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada, Ontario, Kitchener
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pictures of ducting.
Changed the rear brakes to the vented T2 ones today. Flushed the system with racing brake fluid. Then i test fitted the 17x8 +30 offset RPF01s with 235/40/17 R888s. They fit but its TIGHT at the front!!! Going to need to get some spacers. 5mm???
Changed the rear brakes to the vented T2 ones today. Flushed the system with racing brake fluid. Then i test fitted the 17x8 +30 offset RPF01s with 235/40/17 R888s. They fit but its TIGHT at the front!!! Going to need to get some spacers. 5mm???
06-03-13, 08:49 PM
#68
Progressive rate springs like that shouldn't compress that much at the bottom that they'll hit the tire. What size tires are they? Depending on the offset of the rims you might need spacers. Probably not large ones though. I ran spacers on the front of my old GXL and I had a really tight fit between the tire and the spring.
06-03-13, 09:38 PM
#69
You may need a 5mm spacer by the look of it, or it's just the angle of the camera. Can you see how much space you have between the top of the tire and that second spring coil?
This is my setup with RB springs (supposed to be .5" drop for convertibles) and 16x8 +50 FD wheels, 225/50R16, and a 20mm spacer (effectively +30 as well).
Your 235/40R17's actually have a smaller overall diameter.
This is my setup with RB springs (supposed to be .5" drop for convertibles) and 16x8 +50 FD wheels, 225/50R16, and a 20mm spacer (effectively +30 as well).
Your 235/40R17's actually have a smaller overall diameter.
06-04-13, 09:55 PM
#70
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada, Ontario, Kitchener
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Progressive rate springs like that shouldn't compress that much at the bottom that they'll hit the tire. What size tires are they? Depending on the offset of the rims you might need spacers. Probably not large ones though. I ran spacers on the front of my old GXL and I had a really tight fit between the tire and the spring.
06-04-13, 10:03 PM
#71
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada, Ontario, Kitchener
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You may need a 5mm spacer by the look of it, or it's just the angle of the camera. Can you see how much space you have between the top of the tire and that second spring coil?
This is my setup with RB springs (supposed to be .5" drop for convertibles) and 16x8 +50 FD wheels, 225/50R16, and a 20mm spacer (effectively +30 as well).
Your 235/40R17's actually have a smaller overall diameter.
This is my setup with RB springs (supposed to be .5" drop for convertibles) and 16x8 +50 FD wheels, 225/50R16, and a 20mm spacer (effectively +30 as well).
Your 235/40R17's actually have a smaller overall diameter.
I dont currently have my fenders rolled but i talked to a guy near me last night and im going to get them done. I dont know if it will be before or after my fist track day though.
06-06-13, 07:12 AM
#73
Full Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I doubt I'll actually sell the vert haha, I just can't insure it this year, so I figured I'd put it up and see if I get offers.
06-15-13, 07:39 AM
#74
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada, Ontario, Kitchener
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update
Wheel spacers- I picked up some 8mm spacers and put them on. I can just squeeze the tip of my finger between the tire and the bottom coil.
I had my car on the dyno last night for tuning. It turned in to a long, problem-some, and expensive night and its not complete. I dont know what was all going on since i know noting about tuning but this is what i think was happening. The first issue was timing. Took a lot of adjustment and even when it was set up right the car still wouldnt run well. It sounded like a miss fire at low rpm but once you brought it up it sounded normal. At low rpm it a little sputtery and laggy. The guys were saying it sounded kind of like a big ported engine but not really at the same time.
We know the leading coils are fine but we are going to check the trailing coils. While idling we unplugged the trailing coils and no change to idle but we didnt know if there should be or not. Next step is to pull the plugs and crank the engine and check for spark from them.
Next issue was the tach. I knew it was weird going into the tune because it is twitchy and when i would rev the car up the tach seemed way too high for the sound of the car. Well i was right. The faster the car ran the further off it seemed to be. At idle it was bang on but when the engine was at 2000rpm it was reading 2800 and engine at 3000rpm and it was reading 4200rpm.
Not sure what is causing that. I have the stock tach wired to the trailing coils. I am using the wire that ran it with the stock wiring since it isnt used for the haltech wiring.
Another thing that is happening is there is a shriek from something in the engine bay that starts right at 4000rpm. We were wondering if it was maybe the pained pulleys???
The o2 sensor burnt out at the end of the session. The guy i got the car from had it 4 inches from the turbo. I was told thats not a smart idea last night and sure enough it was toast by the end of the night. So i am having that moved further away to 36inches.
And lastly the brakes are squishy. I swapped all four single piston na brakes to TII stuff with ss flex hoses. I then bled them with wilwood racing fluid. I have not changed to the TII master cylinder yet so im wondering if that will do it???
Soooooo yeahhhhh it wasnt the awesome and happy ending dyno night that i had hoped for
After the work i have to get done and then more tuning and seat brackets and sliders i have ordered now i dont know if i will be making it to sigma by the end of the month....maybe not even this year its just costing me too much and another 500 bucks for a race day will just kill me!
I had my car on the dyno last night for tuning. It turned in to a long, problem-some, and expensive night and its not complete. I dont know what was all going on since i know noting about tuning but this is what i think was happening. The first issue was timing. Took a lot of adjustment and even when it was set up right the car still wouldnt run well. It sounded like a miss fire at low rpm but once you brought it up it sounded normal. At low rpm it a little sputtery and laggy. The guys were saying it sounded kind of like a big ported engine but not really at the same time.
We know the leading coils are fine but we are going to check the trailing coils. While idling we unplugged the trailing coils and no change to idle but we didnt know if there should be or not. Next step is to pull the plugs and crank the engine and check for spark from them.
Next issue was the tach. I knew it was weird going into the tune because it is twitchy and when i would rev the car up the tach seemed way too high for the sound of the car. Well i was right. The faster the car ran the further off it seemed to be. At idle it was bang on but when the engine was at 2000rpm it was reading 2800 and engine at 3000rpm and it was reading 4200rpm.
Not sure what is causing that. I have the stock tach wired to the trailing coils. I am using the wire that ran it with the stock wiring since it isnt used for the haltech wiring.
Another thing that is happening is there is a shriek from something in the engine bay that starts right at 4000rpm. We were wondering if it was maybe the pained pulleys???
The o2 sensor burnt out at the end of the session. The guy i got the car from had it 4 inches from the turbo. I was told thats not a smart idea last night and sure enough it was toast by the end of the night. So i am having that moved further away to 36inches.
And lastly the brakes are squishy. I swapped all four single piston na brakes to TII stuff with ss flex hoses. I then bled them with wilwood racing fluid. I have not changed to the TII master cylinder yet so im wondering if that will do it???
Soooooo yeahhhhh it wasnt the awesome and happy ending dyno night that i had hoped for
After the work i have to get done and then more tuning and seat brackets and sliders i have ordered now i dont know if i will be making it to sigma by the end of the month....maybe not even this year its just costing me too much and another 500 bucks for a race day will just kill me!