Lawyers Spirit is a star!!
10-04-05, 08:06 AM
#26
Originally Posted by SophiaCDN
Don't take this personally, but this "poor students" routine is a bit of a peeve of mine, so I'll speak up... (and yes, I know it's the journalist who wrote the article, not our star model 
Come on guys, look at this realistically. A lof of student debt is lifestyle. Here, law school cost what, $30K tuition and another $5 in books? That means that the other $65,000 in debt is what? Living a $20+ K a year lifestyle?
Don't let such articles discourage you from school. You could do it with a lot less debt if you really work your butt off (live a more conservative lifestyle, and work part time). If you choose to live a more "relaxed" lifestyle, then you know you'll be in more debt and you'll just have to deal with it.
Anyone of the "why bother going post-secondary because it costs so much" school of thought... You can do a four year degree over five years if you go part time and take three courses a semester every semester, including summer. That leaves plenty of time for work. If you live a conservative lifestyle, you can graduate debt free. Or, if you go full time, do co-op. You earn $10,000 in a work term, and that covers tuition plus residence for a school year. Little bit of part time work on the side and less partying, and you'll be debt free. I worked full time hours while studying full time for a chunk of my graduate degree, and it didn't kill me.
Anyway, the poor student in massive debt routine doesn't fly by me, never has! Especially because I know plenty of people that worked and studied full time and graduated debt free.
Come on guys, look at this realistically. A lof of student debt is lifestyle. Here, law school cost what, $30K tuition and another $5 in books? That means that the other $65,000 in debt is what? Living a $20+ K a year lifestyle?
Don't let such articles discourage you from school. You could do it with a lot less debt if you really work your butt off (live a more conservative lifestyle, and work part time). If you choose to live a more "relaxed" lifestyle, then you know you'll be in more debt and you'll just have to deal with it.
Anyone of the "why bother going post-secondary because it costs so much" school of thought... You can do a four year degree over five years if you go part time and take three courses a semester every semester, including summer. That leaves plenty of time for work. If you live a conservative lifestyle, you can graduate debt free. Or, if you go full time, do co-op. You earn $10,000 in a work term, and that covers tuition plus residence for a school year. Little bit of part time work on the side and less partying, and you'll be debt free. I worked full time hours while studying full time for a chunk of my graduate degree, and it didn't kill me.
Anyway, the poor student in massive debt routine doesn't fly by me, never has! Especially because I know plenty of people that worked and studied full time and graduated debt free.
Newsflash Sophia, it takes two degrees to get an LL.B. So on average you are looking at 6-7 years of post secondary. Osgoode Hall's Financial services office estimated the cost of attending a year of Osgoode at $25000 per year when living and education expenses are combined. This is living on a budget not the lavish lifestyle that you seem to think has been portrayed. And by the way I ran a small business while attending Osgoode and worked whenever possible.
It is now impossible to attend a Greater Toronto Area law school on what is provided by OSAP. The article was not intended to discourage attendance but more so to try and stir the lazy politicians to get of their collective asses and do something about it.
I agree with you that money should not be a concern when obtaining an education but the reality now is very different. If I did not have good credit I would not have been able to attend Law school since I wouldn't have qualified for the private loans I needed to supplement the amount loaned by OSAP.
If you want to go to a professional school you ought to be able to go depending on your grades, not on what family your were born into or on the basis of your credit report.
10-04-05, 08:38 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by Lawyer's Spirit
Newsflash Sophia, it takes two degrees to get an LL.B. So on average you are looking at 6-7 years of post secondary. Osgoode Hall's Financial services office estimated the cost of attending a year of Osgoode at $25000 per year when living and education expenses are combined. This is living on a budget not the lavish lifestyle that you seem to think has been portrayed. And by the way I ran a small business while attending Osgoode and worked whenever possible.
It is now impossible to attend a Greater Toronto Area law school on what is provided by OSAP. The article was not intended to discourage attendance but more so to try and stir the lazy politicians to get of their collective asses and do something about it.
I agree with you that money should not be a concern when obtaining an education but the reality now is very different. If I did not have good credit I would not have been able to attend Law school since I wouldn't have qualified for the private loans I needed to supplement the amount loaned by OSAP.
If you want to go to a professional school you ought to be able to go depending on your grades, not on what family your were born into or on the basis of your credit report.
It is now impossible to attend a Greater Toronto Area law school on what is provided by OSAP. The article was not intended to discourage attendance but more so to try and stir the lazy politicians to get of their collective asses and do something about it.
I agree with you that money should not be a concern when obtaining an education but the reality now is very different. If I did not have good credit I would not have been able to attend Law school since I wouldn't have qualified for the private loans I needed to supplement the amount loaned by OSAP.
If you want to go to a professional school you ought to be able to go depending on your grades, not on what family your were born into or on the basis of your credit report.
In general professional degrees such as laywers, accountants, doctors, engineers... do not offer their programs in part time format. In addition to the heavy work load required outside of the classrooms and labs that takes away from the time that could have been alloted for part time jobs and such. I lived like a bum and worked every single summer at engineering jobs making avg of 12k in 4 months. I still managed 20K debt (maybe it would've been 12K debt if I had not purchased the FC) over 4 years, which isn't bad. I had a small scholarship and bursary to supplement my education but even that was not enough. 20k to pay takes a bit of time to pay off.
10-04-05, 09:47 PM
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I knew people who struggled to get by. I also knew people who had parents pay for everything including new cars, insurance and even gas. There are a mix of people at school and in the rest of the world.
I went to school part time and worked part time. I still had loans to pay off. I worked hard during school and after I finished. I paid off my loans. I thought about dropping out but I didn't. Now I'm pretty happy with things. Looking back I would do it again and I would recommend it.
The main point being made about the cost of education is that before doing it and being able to see that things did work out better it is really hard for people without a lot of money to decide to go to school. Doubly so if you have a family to look after.
All that said we still have public libraries and you can make a difference to yourself without going to school. It's not the same thing but it's a very cheap way to learn.
I went to school part time and worked part time. I still had loans to pay off. I worked hard during school and after I finished. I paid off my loans. I thought about dropping out but I didn't. Now I'm pretty happy with things. Looking back I would do it again and I would recommend it.
The main point being made about the cost of education is that before doing it and being able to see that things did work out better it is really hard for people without a lot of money to decide to go to school. Doubly so if you have a family to look after.
All that said we still have public libraries and you can make a difference to yourself without going to school. It's not the same thing but it's a very cheap way to learn.
10-04-05, 10:50 PM
#29
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all i know, is having an RX-7 while trying to get an engineering degree is definetly a mistake!
no way in hell i could work part-time, there are phsically not enough hours in a week to accomodate it and school (unless i want to completely give up sleep).
thankfully i can get some decent government student jobs over the summer, and my parents RESP savings pay for a (small) part of tuition...the rest of the money unfortunately goes into the car, and thus i WILL be in debt after all is said and done...but that is fine to me. i don't mind paying back a bit after graduating, although it will be nowhere near 100k!
no way in hell i could work part-time, there are phsically not enough hours in a week to accomodate it and school (unless i want to completely give up sleep).
thankfully i can get some decent government student jobs over the summer, and my parents RESP savings pay for a (small) part of tuition...the rest of the money unfortunately goes into the car, and thus i WILL be in debt after all is said and done...but that is fine to me. i don't mind paying back a bit after graduating, although it will be nowhere near 100k!
Last edited by coldfire; 10-04-05 at 10:52 PM.
10-04-05, 11:09 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by coldfire
no way in hell i could work part-time, there are phsically not enough hours in a week to accomodate it and school (unless i want to completely give up sleep).
I was sleeping through my morning classes and only showing up at school long enough for lectures. I just crashed hard. I still I remember the moment when I realized what was happening. I hope I never forget it because life is too short to work yourself to an early grave.
10-04-05, 11:13 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Doctor.Jekyll
I don't recommend overloading with work. Do both part time but don't do both full time. In my first year I worked 32 hours a week (at my part time job) plus I had six courses. You get one guess as to what happened.
I was sleeping through my morning classes and only showing up at school long enough for lectures. I just crashed hard. I still I remember the moment when I realized what was happening. I hope I never forget it because life is too short to work yourself to an early grave.
I was sleeping through my morning classes and only showing up at school long enough for lectures. I just crashed hard. I still I remember the moment when I realized what was happening. I hope I never forget it because life is too short to work yourself to an early grave.
unfortunately i can't really take school part-time since i've only been able to find full-time jobs in the summer, and they don't offer a lot of the courses i need in the summer.
i can only imagine what having a job and a full course load must be like! i would never do that, lol.
i had 7 courses (37.5 hours in-class a week) three semester ago, and i didn't make it out in good shape...
10-05-05, 11:09 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Lawyer's Spirit
Newsflash Sophia, it takes two degrees to get an LL.B. So on average you are looking at 6-7 years of post secondary. Osgoode Hall's Financial services office estimated the cost of attending a year of Osgoode at $25000 per year when living and education expenses are combined. This is living on a budget not the lavish lifestyle that you seem to think has been portrayed. And by the way I ran a small business while attending Osgoode and worked whenever possible.
So according to Osgoode Hall's Financial Services Office, you shouldn't have graduated with more than $75,000 debt? So that brings me back to what truly bugs me about that article: It's misrepresenting the student financial situation. Your debt wasn't all forced upon you, you're $25K more in the hole than you should have been according to your own school. The journalist was basically using you, an atypical example of a student (come on, you didn't live a spartan lifestyle, and you own an RX-7!) to make some whining plea to the public. So I wouldn't rub that into clients either, because that is misrepresentation. Oh wait, that's what lawyers get trained to do
The article is a lot of BS, and you haven't really proven otherwise, so don't newsflash me either, mister!
Originally Posted by Lawyer's Spirit
It is now impossible to attend a Greater Toronto Area law school on what is provided by OSAP. The article was not intended to discourage attendance but more so to try and stir the lazy politicians to get of their collective asses and do something about it.
People also need to be honest with themselves: How many hours a week, while in school full time, did you really spend studying? I'm honest enough to myself to know that I had a LOT of free time during undergrad.
10-06-05, 07:58 AM
#33
Originally Posted by SophiaCDN
I know it takes two degrees to get an LL.B., I never stated otherwise. The article says "The 30-year-old Woodbridge man, who graduated in April, said his three years at Osgoode Hall law school left him $100,000 in the red," so definitely saying that it's only your law school that is responsible for your debt, then why bring up the first degree? It's another matter entirely. Based on your age, you most likely didn't go straight from the first degree to the second either, so you had time to save up or pay off any other student loans.
So according to Osgoode Hall's Financial Services Office, you shouldn't have graduated with more than $75,000 debt? So that brings me back to what truly bugs me about that article: It's misrepresenting the student financial situation. Your debt wasn't all forced upon you, you're $25K more in the hole than you should have been according to your own school. The journalist was basically using you, an atypical example of a student (come on, you didn't live a spartan lifestyle, and you own an RX-7!) to make some whining plea to the public. So I wouldn't rub that into clients either, because that is misrepresentation. Oh wait, that's what lawyers get trained to do
The article is a lot of BS, and you haven't really proven otherwise, so don't newsflash me either, mister!
As long as politicians know how much the situation is being exaggerated, they won't do much at all. A lot of student loans get abused, and they know it. At least Cheers was honest enough to admit that 40% of his student loan was his car!
People also need to be honest with themselves: How many hours a week, while in school full time, did you really spend studying? I'm honest enough to myself to know that I had a LOT of free time during undergrad.
So according to Osgoode Hall's Financial Services Office, you shouldn't have graduated with more than $75,000 debt? So that brings me back to what truly bugs me about that article: It's misrepresenting the student financial situation. Your debt wasn't all forced upon you, you're $25K more in the hole than you should have been according to your own school. The journalist was basically using you, an atypical example of a student (come on, you didn't live a spartan lifestyle, and you own an RX-7!) to make some whining plea to the public. So I wouldn't rub that into clients either, because that is misrepresentation. Oh wait, that's what lawyers get trained to do
The article is a lot of BS, and you haven't really proven otherwise, so don't newsflash me either, mister!
As long as politicians know how much the situation is being exaggerated, they won't do much at all. A lot of student loans get abused, and they know it. At least Cheers was honest enough to admit that 40% of his student loan was his car!
People also need to be honest with themselves: How many hours a week, while in school full time, did you really spend studying? I'm honest enough to myself to know that I had a LOT of free time during undergrad.
10-06-05, 08:34 PM
#34
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I've got a minute, so allow me to enlighten you SophiaCDN. First off, I'm curious as to what your diploma or degree is in. I received my B. Mus. Ed. in '95 and B. Ed. in '96 and walked away approximately $50K in the hole. Throughout my four years in undergrad I had, on average 36 hours of class a week. They ran from 8 am to 10 pm, with the exception of Friday's class ending at 5: and yes, I attended most of them except when health or family engagements wouldn't allow. I managed to maintain a part-time job throughout each year along with a full-time seasonal job every May through August. My program was such that I had to carry around approximately $15K worth of instruments at any given time. (ie. carrying them or in the back of my car to take them to rehearsals and gigs.) And each of my cars was a major piece of **** but was a necessary evil in order to allow me to go to my rehearsals, gigs and jobs. Most of my "free" time was split between working on my car, practicing, studying and going out for the odd night of drinking maybe two or three times a month. When you take into account that every year I spent another $10K on books, sheet music, lessons, and instruments, coupled with living expenses and parents who were not in a strong financial position, the final tally is of no surprise. Yes, there were scholarships but competition for those available was very tight. My first of four years saw 180 students start but only 40 or so complete their fourth year.
I'm currently in my ninth year of teaching highschool and as a result I'm quite familiar with what many students are facing as they prepare for post-secondary.
The debt ratio for many graduates these days are high. That's the cost of education as it stands right now in Ontario. We are moving towards a dangerously wide void between those who can "afford" to continue in the post-secondary stream and those who cannot. I could go on and provide you with a bombardment of facts but I hope that you are getting the point of what I'm saying. It simply isn't as cut and dry as you would have us believe. It's not a bleak and hopless situation for many people-granted. But the fact remains, that the cost of post-secondary is increasing far too quickly and proving to be prohibitive for an alarming number of people.
I'm currently in my ninth year of teaching highschool and as a result I'm quite familiar with what many students are facing as they prepare for post-secondary.
The debt ratio for many graduates these days are high. That's the cost of education as it stands right now in Ontario. We are moving towards a dangerously wide void between those who can "afford" to continue in the post-secondary stream and those who cannot. I could go on and provide you with a bombardment of facts but I hope that you are getting the point of what I'm saying. It simply isn't as cut and dry as you would have us believe. It's not a bleak and hopless situation for many people-granted. But the fact remains, that the cost of post-secondary is increasing far too quickly and proving to be prohibitive for an alarming number of people.
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