Snrub

iTrader: (1)

It does appear to be a good value and being a few horses shy doesn't change what the car currently does. People get too woried about the theory and not enough about the actual practice.

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

Exactly.
It is like Ian crying about only having 380hp when he normally drives with both left and right feet on the brake pedal.

Just enjoy the car. I know Scott does...

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

Snrub, the RX-8 is about 250 lbs heavier than the FD i believe, so that weight has to be taken into account...however, the weight distribution is actually better in the RX-8 than the FD, including the yaw center.

but what has been said is true, even with a lower output than the FD and more weight, i have heard of stock RX-8s lapping just as fast around a road course as a stock FD...

Wankels-Revenge

I've heard of such things as well. The rx-8 chassis is supposed to be quite a bit stiffer than the FD chassis. The raw power may not be there but it more than makes up for it with extra precision. Hey i'd still get one...if the money were there.

Then again if the money were there i'd be in an FD...in hawaii....with beautiful women surrounding me

Hellbreed

Actually I was expecting to get what Dan got and figured I didn't because it was hot and humid. I was really surprised with Dan's 186 rwhp given all I have read about that Typhoon, I wasn't expecting more the 2-3hp on the REVi that I have as Racing Beat claims are usually pretty good. RB's dyno shows the REVi putting 10HP in 5th gear at I think 7000rpm, not very usable HP if you ask me. I'll be ready for another dyno once RB releases the CAI for the REVi.

RXcetera

Kind of off topic, but I've never heard of this. If you're into Best Motoring, you know the FD owns the RX-8 (and all other Japanese RWD) on a track. On the street is another story... RX-8's handle the Ottawa cruise MUCH better than FD's.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

As for the weight, just like the FC, the FD varried in weight. Eg. A touring could weigh 2917lbs (Brian Long book pg. 146). The S4 TII is quoted @ 2830lbs, but a stripper like mine was probably a tad lighter still. The weight variations are only going to change the picture by a couple of tenths. Interestingly the 14.5 figure I mentioned for the TII was a 3k lbs S5, same as the RX-8. Minor tweeks on the yaw center aren't going to make any usefull difference (for our discussion) in the 1/4. Again, I don't want to get into a big thing about this because it's purely academic.

As for the second part, I've heard a couple of people say that, but I have a hard time believing it. If a car has cushier suspension (that's not to say the RX-8's suspension is poor, new Mazdas have an uncanny level of suspension comfort for their performance!) and is getting beat on corner exit due to the engine's peaky nature and down the straights due to HP, how is it going to beat the other car?

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

best motoring? are we talking about last gen RZs? because special tuned suspension and 280hp+ will for sure own the RX-8.

but a stock 92 FD that isn't in peak condition anymore may not so easily OWN an RX-8 i don't think.

in any case, forget what i said until i can find some actual proof of that, instead of just "i heard"...

RXcetera

Ok, a 93 FD with boost problems and worn-out rear pillowball bushings will have similar performance to an RX-8 on a track. But even with low boost, an FD still has more or equal power, more torque, weighs less and has the same basic suspension setup as the 8 (except the FD uses aluminium where the 8 uses steel).

I would take the 93 supension calibrations over the 99 spec any day on a track. The 93 was setup for neutral handling and was rediculously stiff (perfect for a smooth track). By 1999, the FD was much closer to the RX-8 in handling (softer + understeer) which is why RX-8's handle the real world so well. That said, the later FD's will be faster than 93's on a track because of that 280hp you mentioned .

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

yeah, you are right. i have to admit i have a hard time believing an RX-8 could lap faster than a good condition stock FD, no matter what model.

however the suspension geometry IS slightly different, and there are a few things that could make the 8 a little easier to drive fast. just a few points:
- even though the powerband is peaky, the 6 speed does a good job at keeping you in the proper powerband. the variable volume intake further adds to this, and i see these as more of a race track advantage than a street advantage
- the RX-8 chassis is an improvment over the FD. " twice as stiff in torsion and 1.7 times more resistant to bending". the power plant frame is newer than the FDs, it is a more rigid chassis, has a lower yaw moment and overall lower polar moment.
now as Snrub said, these may not make much difference individually, but it could make a difference on the track in terms of the car as a whole
- brakes. i'm not quite sure, but i'm inclined to say the optional performance brakes on the RX-8 are better than the stock RX-7s, but the bigger wheels and weight on the 8 might negate this advantage
- a whole bunch of little things, like the electronic throttle, add to a driver being able to maximize the potential of the car.

i guess maybe on the right track under the right conditions the RX-8 could keep up to an FD, but i guess it can't be really determine unless there is an actual objective comparison between the two...
anyways, sorry to go on, and i know the thread has been jacked, lol

HEVNSNT

iTrader: (3)

I didn't know the 8 had optional brakes? The fixed caliper was one thing I didn't like about the 8.

In a car and driver comparison the 8 was pretty close to the piggish g35 and only a 1sec behind the svt cobra r on a certain track.

23Racer

Not to drag this scintilating discussion further off track (bad pun, I know) I have to just explain the Car and Driver article that Hevnsent mentioned. This may come as a shock to many of you, however car magazine tests are often performed to achieve a result as wanted by the magazine editors. This may be to create controversy, to entice a new advertising partner or to slag a departing advertising partner. Many times I have heard of stories where if you advertise in the magazine then you get a favourable slant to an article.

On to my point. I have the pleasure of racing a 2000 SVT Cobra R and have driven the street version many times. This car is a track bullet and there is no way, stock vs stock, that an RX8 or a G35 is even close to it's performance. The stock Cobra R turns 12's in the quarter, can pull over 1 g in cornering and has a top speed of 175 mph. On a race track, Thunderhill Timex 12 Hour race in 2001, we took a basically stock Cobra R and using the stock full tread depth Goodrich KD's (2:05) and with beat Goodyear slicks on the stock wheels put the car in 7th place out of 48 cars with a 1:58 lap. This was with an as delivered car with only safety stuff added.

When I read this article I just about fell out of my chair laughing. In any subjective test on a race track the Cobra R is superior in every way. On the street, the car sucks. It doesn't have air or a stereo or a back seat. My buddy who actually owns 2 of them talked to Ford about it and they just laughed it off and said that they guessed that Car and Driver was trying to land a piece of the Mazda Ad money.

Not trying to slag the Mazda RX8, however the Car and Driver test was like comparing apples and oranges and getting a hamburger as a result.

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

Looks like the FC is catchin' up

I totally agree with the whole advertising issue. You just have to look at any car magazine, where every second page is an ad for another car. Serious money there. But hey, the Cobra R was still the fastest on the track...

I guess until Consumer Reports starts doing tests on high end sports cars like those mentioned, we'll just have to deal with a little journalistic manipulation.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

The C&D article was using the 2003 SVT Cobra, not the very limimted production, basically intentended for the track - Cobra R which is a completely different animal.

Minor differences in the RX-8 vs. FD chasis aren't enough to translate into something that would shift a competition that already isn't that close.

As for the C&D article, that brings up an good point. On a short course, the RX-8 lapped about the same as the G35. My car which dynoed at RX-8 numbers and is probably 300-400lbs lighter and has better low and mid range, was even with a 350Z (lighter car, same engine) at Shannonville down the straight. The 350Z and G35 while fine, are not the most capable in corners compared to say the FD or RX-8. If a RX-8 is even with a G35, it's not reasonable to expect it to surpass a FD.

23Racer

When Hevnsnt said SVT Cobra R I assumed he meant "The Cobra R" not some Ford wannabee. At Shannonville HP means less than handling and everything I have heard says that the RX8 is a great handling car.

It will be very interesting to see the laptimes of the Grand Am Cup RX8's this weekend from Mosport. This will give me a very good feeling as to their relative power and handling versus other cars.

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

ok, i think that this was a fairly unbiased comparison:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ee/index3.html

you can see that the S2000 and 350z could out accelerate an RX-8, but they commented on how the RX-8 is much more balanced and can change direction very well. they also commented on the power delivery and how the torque curve is great.
now, if you look at page 5, you can see that all the cars are very evenly matched.
they didn't test it, but this comparison would lead you to think that an RX-8 could lap around a road course almost as fast as an S2000 and a 350z.

now call me crazy, but i don't think a stock FD can easily leave an S2000 or 350z (track model) behind on the race track...

RXcetera

BM tested the RX-8 at Laguna Seca when it came out. They had previously also tested a late version FD there. The RX-8 managed a 1:50:70, the FD managed a 1:45:87. Almost 5 seconds faster.

FD from Feb 92 issue of C&D:
0-60 5.0
0-100 13.4
0-120 19.4
1/4 mile 13.7
5-60 6.0
30-50 10.7
50-70 7.5
top speed 159
braking from 70mph 157ft
skidpad .97g

RX-8 from April 2003 C&D
0-60 5.9
0-100 15.8
0-130 33.5
1/4 mile 14.5
5-60 7.5
30-50 10.8
50-70 10.0
top speed 144
braking from 70 161 feet
skidpad .87g

Amur_

Am I the only one who remembers the video from about 2 years ago of the FE and FD lapping? They'd get into a straightaway and the FD would take off, but once they got into some twisties the 8 would get right back on his *** again...

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

0.97 skidpad on the FD? i have a hard time believing that. on the stock tires, especially back in 92, i really don't think 0.97 continuous is possible...you would need close to r-compound tires at least to get 0.97 continous lateral accel.

and again, if you are saying LATE model FD, i am assuming the 96+?
that's more than a 50hp advantage in a lighter car compared to the RX-8...corners become a moot point if there are any straight lines whatsoever.

raw numbers alone won't tell you how the car is going to dynamically react. the article i posted prooves it. both the 350z and s2000 could out accelerate the RX-8, but on the figure 8 track they had all cars run almost the exact same times. the RX-8 also came out as the fastest to react, which they actually partially measured.

i also remember reading on rx8club.com RX-8s times just as fast as 350z at autocross.
comparing the S6 FD and the 350z, i'm inclined to say they are very closely matched, but i think the [track model] 350z could actually run faster lap times, drivers being equal...

hey Amur, where can we get this video

RXcetera

.97g isnt possible in 92??

From C&D...

Mazda RX-7 R1/'93 .97
Chevrolet Corvette LT1/'94 .91
Mazda RX-7 Touring/'94 .91
Toyota Supra Turbo/94 .93
Dodge Viper RT-10/'93 .97
Acura NSX/'93 .92
Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1/'93 .92
Ferrari 348tb Serie Speciale/'93 .96
Jaguar XJR-15/'91 .95
Lamborghini Diablo/'91 .91
Porshe 911 Speedster/'94 .91

BTW, R&T recorded a .98 for the Supra

280hp (99+ FD) - 255hp (93FD) =25hp. 25hp (or even the 50hp you state) does not account for a 5 second difference. It's not complicated... an FD weighs less, has more power and has more overall grip than an RX-8. Even a 93 will lap faster.

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

i wasn't saying cars could not get close to 1g on the skidpad in 92, i'm just saying that i have seen lower than that in a few articles i have read. i realize now that it could be very trim-dependent on the FD. i know i have for sure seen a test on a stock FD on the 200ft skid, and they could only manage about 0.91.

i would like to see the article/road tests with those 200ft skidpad numbers, because some of those numbers you mentioned seem high for skidpad tests...
well, regardless it's quite pointless to argue between 0.97 and 0.92, or whatever, anyways. you even mentioned 2 different magazines had the supra at fairly different results...

RXcetera

Base and Touring FD's came with V rated tires, R1's came with Z rated. That accounts for the different numbers. If anything these high numbers make the FD look even better when compared to the RX-8 since, as you mentioned, they where acheived with 15 year old tire technology. It's safe to say that with new high performance tires (like the RX-8 has), you could manage even higher numbers.

Skidpad numbers will vary depending on the surface the cars are being tested on. Most magazines have a specific testing areas they use for every car so it's normal for their numbers to be slighly different. The point of the exercise is to see a trend in each cars behaviour. Any car that can manage .90g+ on street tires has incredible grip.

eViLRotor

iTrader: (2)

Why are you even arguing this?
Who here doesn't think the FD is a better sports car than the RX-8? I would say in the majority of situations, the FD will come out on top.

Also, I doubt Will is making up skidpad numbers to prove his point, so if he shows you the magazine, are you then going to give the FD its due credit.

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

yeah, agreed.

it should also be noted that with r-compound or race tires i think either car, the FD or RX-8 in stock trim, can manage 1 g, and maybe even more.

how about we say both cars kick total ***

nfs05

i think you've been smoking too much crack aaron if you think an rx-8 or s2000 can keep up with an fd on a well paved race track... now on a rough street road they could keep up without a problem...