Boo... or not?
05-22-12, 12:36 PM
#28
400HP turbo rotaries can last years.
Plenty of guys are doing it. Look at IAN's 10AE. (retired now but a good example)
LS1's are a great swap idea for FC's but I'm not sold on it on FD's. I've even driven some really good examples of LS FD's and they just aren't for me. The engine doesn't fit that well, you have to relocate a million things, and you add weight to the nose of the car.
I'm not saying the LS1 swap isn't a good plan but if I was doing it I'd either push the 13B harder or go 20B. 20B's are really great engines and I loved mine. Didn't like 14MPG but it was in a heavy luxury car with an auto trans.
I also know many people who have blown up many LS1's. One guy has blown up more LS1's than I've blown up rotaries. t56's explode all the time even in light cars until they're built. Building a 400HP LS1 is cheap, building an 800HP LS1 is not unless you go the forced induction route, and even then I don't think it's super easy if the car isn't a dyno queen.
Also, sell me your entire setup so I can find an FD to put it in.
Plenty of guys are doing it. Look at IAN's 10AE. (retired now but a good example)
LS1's are a great swap idea for FC's but I'm not sold on it on FD's. I've even driven some really good examples of LS FD's and they just aren't for me. The engine doesn't fit that well, you have to relocate a million things, and you add weight to the nose of the car.
I'm not saying the LS1 swap isn't a good plan but if I was doing it I'd either push the 13B harder or go 20B. 20B's are really great engines and I loved mine. Didn't like 14MPG but it was in a heavy luxury car with an auto trans.
I also know many people who have blown up many LS1's. One guy has blown up more LS1's than I've blown up rotaries. t56's explode all the time even in light cars until they're built. Building a 400HP LS1 is cheap, building an 800HP LS1 is not unless you go the forced induction route, and even then I don't think it's super easy if the car isn't a dyno queen.
Also, sell me your entire setup so I can find an FD to put it in.
05-22-12, 01:44 PM
#29
My motors been making 450+ rwhp since it was built pretty much and abused heavily on the track. It is my daily and I've brought it 4 times to the DGRR already and its even been to Florida twice now. There is over 50k on my motor. Building a reliable high HP rotary isn't that difficult, you just need to know what your doing which sadly a lot people don't. If I had kept my 500R, the downtime on my car would be minimal as most of my recent issues have been Precision turbo related sigh...
On the 20b I'm definitely not using anything but a Garrett turbo even if theres other turbos that will flow more with the same response. I don't want to deal with turbo bullshit anymore.
thewird
On the 20b I'm definitely not using anything but a Garrett turbo even if theres other turbos that will flow more with the same response. I don't want to deal with turbo bullshit anymore.
thewird
05-22-12, 01:46 PM
#30
400HP turbo rotaries can last years.
Plenty of guys are doing it. Look at IAN's 10AE. (retired now but a good example)
LS1's are a great swap idea for FC's but I'm not sold on it on FD's. I've even driven some really good examples of LS FD's and they just aren't for me. The engine doesn't fit that well, you have to relocate a million things, and you add weight to the nose of the car.
I'm not saying the LS1 swap isn't a good plan but if I was doing it I'd either push the 13B harder or go 20B. 20B's are really great engines and I loved mine. Didn't like 14MPG but it was in a heavy luxury car with an auto trans.
I also know many people who have blown up many LS1's. One guy has blown up more LS1's than I've blown up rotaries. t56's explode all the time even in light cars until they're built. Building a 400HP LS1 is cheap, building an 800HP LS1 is not unless you go the forced induction route, and even then I don't think it's super easy if the car isn't a dyno queen.
Also, sell me your entire setup so I can find an FD to put it in.
Plenty of guys are doing it. Look at IAN's 10AE. (retired now but a good example)
LS1's are a great swap idea for FC's but I'm not sold on it on FD's. I've even driven some really good examples of LS FD's and they just aren't for me. The engine doesn't fit that well, you have to relocate a million things, and you add weight to the nose of the car.
I'm not saying the LS1 swap isn't a good plan but if I was doing it I'd either push the 13B harder or go 20B. 20B's are really great engines and I loved mine. Didn't like 14MPG but it was in a heavy luxury car with an auto trans.
I also know many people who have blown up many LS1's. One guy has blown up more LS1's than I've blown up rotaries. t56's explode all the time even in light cars until they're built. Building a 400HP LS1 is cheap, building an 800HP LS1 is not unless you go the forced induction route, and even then I don't think it's super easy if the car isn't a dyno queen.
Also, sell me your entire setup so I can find an FD to put it in.
No offence, but you don't know what your talking about.....relocate what?? Dosen't fit well, according to who?? and add weight....where?T56 explode???since when? Thats why all the rotary guys who make 400rwhp or more are looking to put the T56 into there cars...lol and please show me these cars you've driven and who built them, I'd love to see the works of art they built....
I don't want to get into a pissing match with you but I think I know what I'm talking about especially since I built my car and its been scaled so.....your wrong.
BTW the 20B adds no weight.....sure it doesn't.....lol
05-22-12, 01:49 PM
#31
400 rwhp doesn't need a t56 lol... More like 600 rwhp (street) or 500 rwhp (track use). The old t56's don't like the high RPM either unless their built for it. The new magnums can take the rpm though which is what I'm putting in my 20b.
Anyway, I don't care about what is better for what reason. I want a 20b in my car and nothing else.
thewird
Anyway, I don't care about what is better for what reason. I want a 20b in my car and nothing else.
thewird
05-22-12, 01:56 PM
#32
I am not offended, I still like rotaries and I say go for it....a 20b is a good choice. I just don't like it when people spread bullshit.
Also let me mention that I've been at this for along time now and I was making 450rwhp out of my 13b more then 10 years ago and I loved it but its not reliable....if you dont believe it your just fooling yourself.
Also let me mention that I've been at this for along time now and I was making 450rwhp out of my 13b more then 10 years ago and I loved it but its not reliable....if you dont believe it your just fooling yourself.
05-22-12, 02:10 PM
#33
Which part isn't reliable? My issues throughout the years actually abusing the hell out of my car at the track...
blew 2 (Precision) turbo's
Had a wastegate fail
fried a map sensor (spilled hot coolant on it)
Pinion has loosened a few times
broke front sway bar mounts (upgraded to RE replica sway bar mount)
broke 2 transmissions
oil leak from cracked banjo fitting (upgraded to steel)
some melted vacuum lines that were too close to hot things (solved obviously)
broke the OE driveshaft (upgraded to carbon fiber)
rear brake caliper seized once
old manifold used to crack on occasion, new manifold is made with thicker walled tubing
That is it really, and the majority of this stuff has zero to do with the engine. I've only ever blown my engine once and that was intentional pushing the tune like 5 years ago when I was still on BNR's.
thewird
blew 2 (Precision) turbo's
Had a wastegate fail
fried a map sensor (spilled hot coolant on it)
Pinion has loosened a few times
broke front sway bar mounts (upgraded to RE replica sway bar mount)
broke 2 transmissions
oil leak from cracked banjo fitting (upgraded to steel)
some melted vacuum lines that were too close to hot things (solved obviously)
broke the OE driveshaft (upgraded to carbon fiber)
rear brake caliper seized once
old manifold used to crack on occasion, new manifold is made with thicker walled tubing
That is it really, and the majority of this stuff has zero to do with the engine. I've only ever blown my engine once and that was intentional pushing the tune like 5 years ago when I was still on BNR's.
thewird
05-22-12, 02:25 PM
#34
Rotary Freak
To provide some kind of balance to this discussion, the Dolan guys out of Ottawa tried to make a higher HP 3rd gen work for a couple of years and they had very good guys building their equipment. They popped lots of equipment. Sure the 13b is reliable and can work. Sure it can put down the numbers and sure it can go for 50,000 miles. The only real shortcoming is when things go slightly off, like fuel quality or a rad getting plugged with tire rubber or dirt. The margin of error is a lot tighter on a stressed turbo 13b. It does make a huge difference street vs lapping vs racing.
The LSx Series of motors put down tons of torque stock. With a few upgrades they can make tons of power and can be very reliable. They do have a tendency to overpower the chassis and the support systems, oil/water fuel tank capacity. The Dolan car only became successful after they swapped in the LSx motor. It made good power and was reliable as it was understressed for the application. Of course you have to be smart and put the right box behind it. The T56 is a decent box and reliable with some maintenance. When you add G-Force or Quaife or Hollinger guts to the box, you will have no problems shifting at any rpm. It is also a fairly common swap with FC's and FD's with higher HP 13b's and 20b's and companies sell the adaptors for reasonable money.
Marco, you sound like you know what you want and have a very good idea of how to get there. Just be smart about cooling capacity for the water and oil and build that 800+ hp 20b. It should sound great and act like a ginormous big lump in the front of your car. Just kidding, but you will need to change your setup a fair bit. Good luck and run that 13b hard all summer while you build the new bullet....er bomb...... er nuclear device.
If it was me, for street, 20b for cool factor, for racing, I would go LSx, but thats just me.
Eric
The LSx Series of motors put down tons of torque stock. With a few upgrades they can make tons of power and can be very reliable. They do have a tendency to overpower the chassis and the support systems, oil/water fuel tank capacity. The Dolan car only became successful after they swapped in the LSx motor. It made good power and was reliable as it was understressed for the application. Of course you have to be smart and put the right box behind it. The T56 is a decent box and reliable with some maintenance. When you add G-Force or Quaife or Hollinger guts to the box, you will have no problems shifting at any rpm. It is also a fairly common swap with FC's and FD's with higher HP 13b's and 20b's and companies sell the adaptors for reasonable money.
Marco, you sound like you know what you want and have a very good idea of how to get there. Just be smart about cooling capacity for the water and oil and build that 800+ hp 20b. It should sound great and act like a ginormous big lump in the front of your car. Just kidding, but you will need to change your setup a fair bit. Good luck and run that 13b hard all summer while you build the new bullet....er bomb...... er nuclear device.
If it was me, for street, 20b for cool factor, for racing, I would go LSx, but thats just me.
Eric
05-22-12, 02:34 PM
#35
The guys out in Ottawa is brought up a lot. I really don't want to comment on it, they had a lot of external issues but they should not have had so many failures. They weren't even making that much power. Just because you have knowledgeable people, doesn't mean you have the right people for the application and I'll leave it at that. Everyone and their mother knows pistons, only a handful truly know how to setup a rotary.
Anyway, my goal is have something similar to this (powerplant wise). Built, setup, and tuned by a shop who knows what they are doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsG4f6oCo7I
thewird
Anyway, my goal is have something similar to this (powerplant wise). Built, setup, and tuned by a shop who knows what they are doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsG4f6oCo7I
thewird
05-22-12, 07:10 PM
#36
To provide some kind of balance to this discussion, the Dolan guys out of Ottawa tried to make a higher HP 3rd gen work for a couple of years and they had very good guys building their equipment. They popped lots of equipment. Sure the 13b is reliable and can work. Sure it can put down the numbers and sure it can go for 50,000 miles. The only real shortcoming is when things go slightly off, like fuel quality or a rad getting plugged with tire rubber or dirt. The margin of error is a lot tighter on a stressed turbo 13b. It does make a huge difference street vs lapping vs racing.
The LSx Series of motors put down tons of torque stock. With a few upgrades they can make tons of power and can be very reliable. They do have a tendency to overpower the chassis and the support systems, oil/water fuel tank capacity. The Dolan car only became successful after they swapped in the LSx motor. It made good power and was reliable as it was understressed for the application. Of course you have to be smart and put the right box behind it. The T56 is a decent box and reliable with some maintenance. When you add G-Force or Quaife or Hollinger guts to the box, you will have no problems shifting at any rpm. It is also a fairly common swap with FC's and FD's with higher HP 13b's and 20b's and companies sell the adaptors for reasonable money.
Marco, you sound like you know what you want and have a very good idea of how to get there. Just be smart about cooling capacity for the water and oil and build that 800+ hp 20b. It should sound great and act like a ginormous big lump in the front of your car. Just kidding, but you will need to change your setup a fair bit. Good luck and run that 13b hard all summer while you build the new bullet....er bomb...... er nuclear device.
If it was me, for street, 20b for cool factor, for racing, I would go LSx, but thats just me.
Eric
The LSx Series of motors put down tons of torque stock. With a few upgrades they can make tons of power and can be very reliable. They do have a tendency to overpower the chassis and the support systems, oil/water fuel tank capacity. The Dolan car only became successful after they swapped in the LSx motor. It made good power and was reliable as it was understressed for the application. Of course you have to be smart and put the right box behind it. The T56 is a decent box and reliable with some maintenance. When you add G-Force or Quaife or Hollinger guts to the box, you will have no problems shifting at any rpm. It is also a fairly common swap with FC's and FD's with higher HP 13b's and 20b's and companies sell the adaptors for reasonable money.
Marco, you sound like you know what you want and have a very good idea of how to get there. Just be smart about cooling capacity for the water and oil and build that 800+ hp 20b. It should sound great and act like a ginormous big lump in the front of your car. Just kidding, but you will need to change your setup a fair bit. Good luck and run that 13b hard all summer while you build the new bullet....er bomb...... er nuclear device.
If it was me, for street, 20b for cool factor, for racing, I would go LSx, but thats just me.
Eric
Every single ottawa failure was auxiliary. All. As for their Piston engine reliable? It only made one outing so far but I am sure it will be reliable. Im not trying to start a debate. The V8 is insane and has had every single car manufacture perfect it. If I were to put it in my car it better last 200,000km ++of 400rwhp or more, beating and I wouldn't expect anything less. My old 400rwhp made it throught two ems multiple drag races, multiple people tuning it, two overheats, and is still pulling strong. It sitting in my basement because my 10th AE is getting painted. You have to place a limit on the power output on the rotary. A stockish 200 rwhp motor 13b lasts along time. 400rwhp probable half that. Stock 400rwhp V8 lasts a long time. How long would a 800rwhp V8 last?
05-23-12, 07:09 AM
#38
Rotary Freak
Not my post against you 23racer. Just a small comment on the ottawa team.
Every single ottawa failure was auxiliary. All. As for their Piston engine reliable? It only made one outing so far but I am sure it will be reliable. Im not trying to start a debate. The V8 is insane and has had every single car manufacture perfect it. If I were to put it in my car it better last 200,000km ++of 400rwhp or more, beating and I wouldn't expect anything less. My old 400rwhp made it throught two ems multiple drag races, multiple people tuning it, two overheats, and is still pulling strong. It sitting in my basement because my 10th AE is getting painted. You have to place a limit on the power output on the rotary. A stockish 200 rwhp motor 13b lasts along time. 400rwhp probable half that. Stock 400rwhp V8 lasts a long time. How long would a 800rwhp V8 last?
Every single ottawa failure was auxiliary. All. As for their Piston engine reliable? It only made one outing so far but I am sure it will be reliable. Im not trying to start a debate. The V8 is insane and has had every single car manufacture perfect it. If I were to put it in my car it better last 200,000km ++of 400rwhp or more, beating and I wouldn't expect anything less. My old 400rwhp made it throught two ems multiple drag races, multiple people tuning it, two overheats, and is still pulling strong. It sitting in my basement because my 10th AE is getting painted. You have to place a limit on the power output on the rotary. A stockish 200 rwhp motor 13b lasts along time. 400rwhp probable half that. Stock 400rwhp V8 lasts a long time. How long would a 800rwhp V8 last?
My next door neighbour is a very well respected race engine builder who has been building NASCAR, NHRA and SCCA race motors for over 40 years. He constantly tells me stories of him building higher HP motors and guys blowing them up right away after they install them with too small rads, too small oil coolers, fuel lines too small to provide enough fuel for the new 700 hp motors, not enough airflow through the rads and coolers, funky electronics that make the engine misfire and pop.
I am certain that the Ottawa guys had issues with their auxilary systems. Making a motor live for 10 laps at Mosport at 8/10's lapping is pretty easy. Getting your car able to run 3 hours flatout is hard. That is why I have a ginormous rad, 2 oil coolers, baffle plate, huge oil lines, huge fuel lines, tank baffling, completely new electronics, etc.... just to run my 230+ hp NA motor. I need it to be able to go fast for a long time.
Marco, will do things right with his 20B, but he should go to talk to the Can Saf guys about what they needed to do to support their NA 20b to make it live on track. It never hurts to listen to people and make your own decisions with the added knowledge of everyone.
Eric
05-25-12, 08:57 AM
#39
Originally Posted by paul_3rdgen
Dosen't fit well, according to who??
Originally Posted by paul_3rdgen
and add weight....where?
Originally Posted by paul_3rdgen
T56 explode???since when? Thats why all the rotary guys who make 400rwhp or more are looking to put the T56 into there cars...lol
Originally Posted by paul_3rdgen
and please show me these cars you've driven and who built them, I'd love to see the works of art they built....
I built the motor in the red 240, the yellow FD has an LS3 and the camaro has the LS1 straight from GM herself. 2 of the 3 have broken transmissions, and the 3rd had a minor issue but still drives fine.
Several more examples. (stock)t56's aint bulletproof.
Originally Posted by paul_3rdgen
I don't want to get into a pissing match with you but I think I know what I'm talking about especially since I built my car and its been scaled so.....your wrong.
BTW the 20B adds no weight.....sure it doesn't.....lol[/QUOTE]
I never said that. Neither did anyone else.
Anyways, not looking for a flamewar here either just backing up my statement with proof. Take it however you want. I'm sure your car is a hoot to drive, all 3 of the cars I posted above are, but the LS1 into an FD isn't for me, and I don't think would be the right choice for a mainly track car either.
05-25-12, 09:12 AM
#40
Although the LS1 short block definitely weighs more than a 13BREW short block, once you add the weight of the turbo, intercooler, and all other crap, the difference is probably negligible. I believe the apples to apples comparison here would be LS1 longblock vs 13BREW longblock
06-21-12, 08:02 AM
#45
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I say we all help Marco out.
..and that is with a GROUP BUY of 20b engines!
I wonder how cheap we could get a 20b for if we all wanted one?
..can you see it!..I'll take 16 of those?..Paypal?.no problem..lol!
..and that is with a GROUP BUY of 20b engines!
I wonder how cheap we could get a 20b for if we all wanted one?
..can you see it!..I'll take 16 of those?..Paypal?.no problem..lol!
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