Anyone know anything about emissions testing?
06-26-13, 07:20 PM
#51
My question is, if etesting stops at 1987 for "regular" vehicles. Why would you even bother testing vehicles to a 1980 standard!?! We all know it's a pure cash grab at this point, so couldn't you just skip to hoops (ie physically having it tested) and mail a cheque?
06-26-13, 08:53 PM
#53
First: While it is true that emission testing is not required for vehicle's 1987 and older on a two year schedule to obtain a sticker, all vehicle's on the road are subject to Ontario's "Smog Patrol". You can be stopped by a member of the Smog Patrol and ordered to get an emission test even if your vehicle falls outside of the testing window.
Second: I have a tough time calling Drive Clean a cash grab. The program was designed to be revenue neutral (read: does not turn a profit). Further reinforcing this is a 2008 court decision that states governments can not implement mandatory "services" of any kind that charge a fee any higher than the cost of that service. (Again, read: can not turn a profit). Worthy of mentioning: Ontario only gets a cut of emission tests that pass. No money is remitted to the government on failed tests.
I despise Drive Clean as much as the next guy, I've even emailed my MPP about it. But the amount of misinformation and incorrect assumptions regarding the program should be cleared up.
-Geoff
06-26-13, 10:07 PM
#54
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Anyone know of a good shop in Burlington/Oakville area to get tested?
Not looking for anything shady, just a legit test but I would like to be able to monitor/adjust my map on the PFC/Datalogit.
I failed last time on the dyno part; passed the idle test no problem; figured I would give it another go this year since the test has changed.
Thanks.
Not looking for anything shady, just a legit test but I would like to be able to monitor/adjust my map on the PFC/Datalogit.
I failed last time on the dyno part; passed the idle test no problem; figured I would give it another go this year since the test has changed.
Thanks.
06-27-13, 07:47 AM
#55
I fully understand what you're explaining here, and I appreciate the knowledge your sharing. I feel we've written the same letters to our respective MPPs
On the first comment, I was simply meaning that the optics of this seem . . . distorted to the layperson.
On the second, Drive Clean as a program did break out of deficit in 2011, to the tune of $6.8 Million, and the Ontario auditor general (2012 report) warned that a court could find Drive Clean to be an “illegal tax” because it does in fact turn a profit.
Do I think it's a "cash grab"? Yeah. . . I do. In addition to the recent math that clearly shows it to be so. I've seen enough conflicting reports as to it's actual environmental benefit, and any program that will let you pass conditionally for a fee doesn't seem to be quite on the level to me.
But that's just my take on it.
On the first comment, I was simply meaning that the optics of this seem . . . distorted to the layperson.
On the second, Drive Clean as a program did break out of deficit in 2011, to the tune of $6.8 Million, and the Ontario auditor general (2012 report) warned that a court could find Drive Clean to be an “illegal tax” because it does in fact turn a profit.
Do I think it's a "cash grab"? Yeah. . . I do. In addition to the recent math that clearly shows it to be so. I've seen enough conflicting reports as to it's actual environmental benefit, and any program that will let you pass conditionally for a fee doesn't seem to be quite on the level to me.
But that's just my take on it. Two things:
First: While it is true that emission testing is not required for vehicle's 1987 and older on a two year schedule to obtain a sticker, all vehicle's on the road are subject to Ontario's "Smog Patrol". You can be stopped by a member of the Smog Patrol and ordered to get an emission test even if your vehicle falls outside of the testing window.
Second: I have a tough time calling Drive Clean a cash grab. The program was designed to be revenue neutral (read: does not turn a profit). Further reinforcing this is a 2008 court decision that states governments can not implement mandatory "services" of any kind that charge a fee any higher than the cost of that service. (Again, read: can not turn a profit). Worthy of mentioning: Ontario only gets a cut of emission tests that pass. No money is remitted to the government on failed tests.
I despise Drive Clean as much as the next guy, I've even emailed my MPP about it. But the amount of misinformation and incorrect assumptions regarding the program should be cleared up.
-Geoff
First: While it is true that emission testing is not required for vehicle's 1987 and older on a two year schedule to obtain a sticker, all vehicle's on the road are subject to Ontario's "Smog Patrol". You can be stopped by a member of the Smog Patrol and ordered to get an emission test even if your vehicle falls outside of the testing window.
Second: I have a tough time calling Drive Clean a cash grab. The program was designed to be revenue neutral (read: does not turn a profit). Further reinforcing this is a 2008 court decision that states governments can not implement mandatory "services" of any kind that charge a fee any higher than the cost of that service. (Again, read: can not turn a profit). Worthy of mentioning: Ontario only gets a cut of emission tests that pass. No money is remitted to the government on failed tests.
I despise Drive Clean as much as the next guy, I've even emailed my MPP about it. But the amount of misinformation and incorrect assumptions regarding the program should be cleared up.
-Geoff
06-27-13, 10:14 AM
#56
I fully understand what you're explaining here, and I appreciate the knowledge your sharing. I feel we've written the same letters to our respective MPPs
On the first comment, I was simply meaning that the optics of this seem . . . distorted to the layperson.
On the second, Drive Clean as a program did break out of deficit in 2011, to the tune of $6.8 Million, and the Ontario auditor general (2012 report) warned that a court could find Drive Clean to be an “illegal tax” because it does in fact turn a profit.
Do I think it's a "cash grab"? Yeah. . . I do. In addition to the recent math that clearly shows it to be so. I've seen enough conflicting reports as to it's actual environmental benefit, and any program that will let you pass conditionally for a fee doesn't seem to be quite on the level to me. But that's just my take on it.
On the first comment, I was simply meaning that the optics of this seem . . . distorted to the layperson.
On the second, Drive Clean as a program did break out of deficit in 2011, to the tune of $6.8 Million, and the Ontario auditor general (2012 report) warned that a court could find Drive Clean to be an “illegal tax” because it does in fact turn a profit.
Do I think it's a "cash grab"? Yeah. . . I do. In addition to the recent math that clearly shows it to be so. I've seen enough conflicting reports as to it's actual environmental benefit, and any program that will let you pass conditionally for a fee doesn't seem to be quite on the level to me.
But that's just my take on it. The heart of the matter is: The government is not allowed to use any of that excess cash for other programs like welfare or swimming pools or snow removal, etc. Right now the cash is sitting around (if it hasn't been spent back into the new system).
If they were allowed to spread that money into other area's then yes, I could see them keeping drive clean on as a cash cow, however the 2008 ruling has prevented this from being the case.
-Geoff
06-29-13, 04:53 PM
#57
Ok... so I took my car in for an emissions test. I'm registered as a Grey Market vehicle so I have much more leeway in my emissions limits.
List of (somewhat) relevant mods:
Streetported 13b
AirPump Delete
A/C Delete
P/S Delete
Greddy Pulley kit
BNR Stage 3 Twins
HKS Downpipe
Bonez High-Flow Cat
Blitz Nur Exhaust
HKS Twin-Power Ignition
Apexi PFC - Completely untuned. Running Base map.
Stock 550 primaries, Cleaned recently
Stock 850 secondaries, Cleaned recently
Greddy Arinix Intake
Greddy BOV
Apexi AVCR
Koyo N-Flow Rad
Greddy FMIC
NGK AFR meter
Oil Change was done 20 minutes before the test. I still run the factory OMP system, No pre-mix used in this tank of gas. Gas was Shell V-Power 91 Octane.
HILARIOUSLY BAD RESULTS:
2500 RPM
HC (PPM) Limit = 600
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 2074
CO% Limit = 5
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 8.55
AT IDLE
HC (ppm) Limit = 600
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 3955
CO% Limit = 5
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 9.03
So I kind of knew I would fail... my car is so stinky at idle that it makes your eyes water. I just wanted to see how bad I was... I even made the emissions tester say "HOLY ****" when he saw the results.
It looks like I'm going to have to beg thewird to take some fuel out of my maps at idle and when not under load and see what that does. I know thwird has done some playing around with tunes and the old drive clean standards and he's posted up that the tune didn't make much of a difference, however I'm curious what happens if we lean it right out at idle.
Time will tell, my sticker isn't due until November so I'm in no rush.
-Geoff
List of (somewhat) relevant mods:
Streetported 13b
AirPump Delete
A/C Delete
P/S Delete
Greddy Pulley kit
BNR Stage 3 Twins
HKS Downpipe
Bonez High-Flow Cat
Blitz Nur Exhaust
HKS Twin-Power Ignition
Apexi PFC - Completely untuned. Running Base map.
Stock 550 primaries, Cleaned recently
Stock 850 secondaries, Cleaned recently
Greddy Arinix Intake
Greddy BOV
Apexi AVCR
Koyo N-Flow Rad
Greddy FMIC
NGK AFR meter
Oil Change was done 20 minutes before the test. I still run the factory OMP system, No pre-mix used in this tank of gas. Gas was Shell V-Power 91 Octane.
HILARIOUSLY BAD RESULTS:
2500 RPM
HC (PPM) Limit = 600
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 2074
CO% Limit = 5
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 8.55
AT IDLE
HC (ppm) Limit = 600
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 3955
CO% Limit = 5
ACTUAL MEASURED RESULT = 9.03
So I kind of knew I would fail... my car is so stinky at idle that it makes your eyes water. I just wanted to see how bad I was... I even made the emissions tester say "HOLY ****" when he saw the results.
It looks like I'm going to have to beg thewird to take some fuel out of my maps at idle and when not under load and see what that does. I know thwird has done some playing around with tunes and the old drive clean standards and he's posted up that the tune didn't make much of a difference, however I'm curious what happens if we lean it right out at idle.
Time will tell, my sticker isn't due until November so I'm in no rush.
-Geoff
06-29-13, 06:18 PM
#58
How do you expect a streetported engine to even have a chance of passing with no air pump? It's definitely needed lol. The air pump serves to lean out the mixture and keep the cat hot since pre-rx8 rotaries have lots of exhaust overlap and HAVE TO run rich at low RPM or they miss and can't idle. The fact that its ported, just amplifies this problem. A general rule of thumb is ported rotaries can't pass period but maybe with the significantly slack grey market limits you'll have a chance.
thewird
thewird
06-30-13, 12:50 PM
#59
Oh I didn't think I'd pass. I wanted to see how bad it would be. I didn't think I'd annihilate the limits that badly. I'm mildly curious as to how much leaning out the idle would take down the emissions. Although I don't really care a lot. I see a conditional pass in my future.
-Geoff
-Geoff
07-02-13, 02:43 AM
#61
How do you expect a streetported engine to even have a chance of passing with no air pump? It's definitely needed lol. The air pump serves to lean out the mixture and keep the cat hot since pre-rx8 rotaries have lots of exhaust overlap and HAVE TO run rich at low RPM or they miss and can't idle. The fact that its ported, just amplifies this problem. A general rule of thumb is ported rotaries can't pass period but maybe with the significantly slack grey market limits you'll have a chance.
thewird
thewird
07-03-13, 10:01 AM
#62
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Just got my fd etested......PASSED!
My set up is
91 octane
Streetport
Hks dp
3" custom midpipe with bullet style hf cat
Apexi catback
Greddy intake and bov
Airpump not connected to exhaust but working
Famspeed tuned ecu
2500rpm. ............. Idle.
Hc 235. ............ 131
CO 3.26 ............ 0.18
That Famspeed ecu works pretty good . I can cruise passed at 16:1 afr and its nice and smooth even at 2500 in neutral it leans out to 15-16:1 but stays nice and rich in boost . When I try that with my fc I get hesitation must be in the timing.
My set up is
91 octane
Streetport
Hks dp
3" custom midpipe with bullet style hf cat
Apexi catback
Greddy intake and bov
Airpump not connected to exhaust but working
Famspeed tuned ecu
2500rpm. ............. Idle.
Hc 235. ............ 131
CO 3.26 ............ 0.18
That Famspeed ecu works pretty good . I can cruise passed at 16:1 afr and its nice and smooth even at 2500 in neutral it leans out to 15-16:1 but stays nice and rich in boost . When I try that with my fc I get hesitation must be in the timing.
07-03-13, 10:36 AM
#63
Just got my fd etested......PASSED!
My set up is
91 octane
Streetport
Hks dp
3" custom midpipe with bullet style hf cat
Apexi catback
Greddy intake and bov
Airpump not connected to exhaust but working
Famspeed tuned ecu
2500rpm. ............. Idle.
Hc 235. ............ 131
CO 3.26 ............ 0.18
That Famspeed ecu works pretty good . I can cruise passed at 16:1 afr and its nice and smooth even at 2500 in neutral it leans out to 15-16:1 but stays nice and rich in boost . When I try that with my fc I get hesitation must be in the timing.
My set up is
91 octane
Streetport
Hks dp
3" custom midpipe with bullet style hf cat
Apexi catback
Greddy intake and bov
Airpump not connected to exhaust but working
Famspeed tuned ecu
2500rpm. ............. Idle.
Hc 235. ............ 131
CO 3.26 ............ 0.18
That Famspeed ecu works pretty good . I can cruise passed at 16:1 afr and its nice and smooth even at 2500 in neutral it leans out to 15-16:1 but stays nice and rich in boost . When I try that with my fc I get hesitation must be in the timing.
Your AFR's at idle and below ~3000 rpm's are not an accurage indicator of what's happening due to still having your airpump spinning. It injects air near the exhaust manifold which "leans" out the reading your AFR will pick up as more air is in the mixture post-combustion, but pre-AFR sensor.
I've just ordered some ID2000's for my secondaries that I'll be putting in later this month (or early august), at that point I hope to get a proper tune done and I'll retest the car. I still don't think I'll pass, but I'm curious how much a proper tune will clean things up versus untuned.
When I don't pass, I'll swing by a crappy tire and get an emissions analysis and estimate on the repairs (which I'm sure will be more than $450) to get my conditional pass.
-Geoff
07-03-13, 11:45 AM
#65
I honestly don't care if it does or doesn't pass ever again. Current regulations allow for an unlimited number of conditional passes. So all I really need is a work order showing that it's going to cost more than $450 to bring the car back into spec and I get a conditional pass and a two year sticker.
Two years later, I can do the same thing. If I sell the car, the new owner will not be able to get plates until a lot of work is done, however I have lots of garage space and no intention of selling the car.
If they change the regulations on conditional passes in the future, I can simply register the car at my cottage which is outside of the Drive Clean area.
The test I did was for ***** and giggles. I don't *NEED* it to pass, I simply wanted to see how close I was... and I was *WAY* way way way off my guesses
-Geoff
07-03-13, 12:40 PM
#66
Lots of incorrect information here especially regarding the air pump. The main purpose of the air pump is to provide oxygen to oxidize the excess HC molecules..hence why the pipe goes into the centre of the cat before the oxidizing bed. It pumps air into the cat at idle and most of the time during cruising. On decel the ACV vents to the exhaust manifold to help prevent backfires. And it recirculates air back into the manifold..which I believe is at WOT.
The air pump does not lean out the a/f ratio. When its adding air to the manifold its trying to oxidize the HC molecules to minimize backfires..plus that's on decel anyway..don't need to be worried about afrs on decel unless something is wrong.
The air pump does not lean out the a/f ratio. When its adding air to the manifold its trying to oxidize the HC molecules to minimize backfires..plus that's on decel anyway..don't need to be worried about afrs on decel unless something is wrong.
07-03-13, 01:09 PM
#67
Lots of incorrect information here especially regarding the air pump. The main purpose of the air pump is to provide oxygen to oxidize the excess HC molecules..hence why the pipe goes into the centre of the cat before the oxidizing bed. It pumps air into the cat at idle and most of the time during cruising. On decel the ACV vents to the exhaust manifold to help prevent backfires. And it recirculates air back into the manifold..which I believe is at WOT.
The air pump does not lean out the a/f ratio. When its adding air to the manifold its trying to oxidize the HC molecules to minimize backfires..plus that's on decel anyway..don't need to be worried about afrs on decel unless something is wrong.
The air pump does not lean out the a/f ratio. When its adding air to the manifold its trying to oxidize the HC molecules to minimize backfires..plus that's on decel anyway..don't need to be worried about afrs on decel unless something is wrong.
Hook up my air pump, my AFR picks up 16:1 at idle. Unhook it, I immediately go to 10:1 at idle with no other changes to the car. This is because of the air being directed into the mainfold after combustion at idle. My O2 sensor for my AFR is in my downpipe, before the cat.
-Geoff
07-03-13, 03:16 PM
#69
What your describing could be a failed acv, mixed vacuum lines, detached vacuum lines...according to the fsm and internet sources the system functions as I described above.
before I was saying that air was directed into the exhaust on decel its not..its directed into the intake manifold.
before I was saying that air was directed into the exhaust on decel its not..its directed into the intake manifold.
07-04-13, 07:26 AM
#70
What your describing could be a failed acv, mixed vacuum lines, detached vacuum lines...according to the fsm and internet sources the system functions as I described above.
before I was saying that air was directed into the exhaust on decel its not..its directed into the intake manifold.
before I was saying that air was directed into the exhaust on decel its not..its directed into the intake manifold.
Remove Air Pump
And here: (2nd gen, but still a 13b)
The MAZDA RX-7 86-88 technical page
Key part here is
This means that, under no load, air is pumped:
into the port air tract from idle to 3,500 rpm
into the port air tract from idle to 3,500 rpm
Passing Emmissions
And here: (a nice write up on our exact site, start reading 3rd paragraph of post 2)
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...ntrols-841963/
I won't keep posting links, but every one of these pages says the air pump pushes air into the exhaust ports.
-Geoff
Last edited by CloudPump; 07-04-13 at 07:35 AM.
07-04-13, 09:21 AM
#72
Okay guess I should just throw out my 310s then.
Read the FSM. Why does Mazda say that's what it does if it doesn't?
The purpose for the air pump is to provide oxygen for HC oxidization when the cat is below operating temp. Argue with me all you want its a fact. OR in some cases its used for aux port activation (s5) or its used on RX8s for a similar purpose but its hooked directly to the intake manifold.
Read the FSM. Why does Mazda say that's what it does if it doesn't?
The purpose for the air pump is to provide oxygen for HC oxidization when the cat is below operating temp. Argue with me all you want its a fact. OR in some cases its used for aux port activation (s5) or its used on RX8s for a similar purpose but its hooked directly to the intake manifold.
07-04-13, 09:44 AM
#73
I already read the first link and it describes exactly what I already said.
2nd link also confirms what I said. it also states that air is directed to ports by the switching valve when it receives vacuum. Again I described the situations in which that happens.
When the relief valve has no vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is not used as it goes through the air chamber and air silencer. When the relief valve has vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is directed to:
either the port air tract (if switching valve has vacuum) or the split air tract (if switching valve has no vacuum)
the intake tract if the anti afterburn valve has vacuum.
I'm not denying that air reaches the exhaust ports were just in argument over when it happens.
Again 3rd link confirms what I said already.
2nd link also confirms what I said. it also states that air is directed to ports by the switching valve when it receives vacuum. Again I described the situations in which that happens.
When the relief valve has no vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is not used as it goes through the air chamber and air silencer. When the relief valve has vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is directed to:
either the port air tract (if switching valve has vacuum) or the split air tract (if switching valve has no vacuum)
the intake tract if the anti afterburn valve has vacuum.
I'm not denying that air reaches the exhaust ports were just in argument over when it happens.
Again 3rd link confirms what I said already.
07-04-13, 10:30 AM
#74
I already read the first link and it describes exactly what I already said.
2nd link also confirms what I said. it also states that air is directed to ports by the switching valve when it receives vacuum. Again I described the situations in which that happens.
When the relief valve has no vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is not used as it goes through the air chamber and air silencer. When the relief valve has vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is directed to:
either the port air tract (if switching valve has vacuum) or the split air tract (if switching valve has no vacuum)
the intake tract if the anti afterburn valve has vacuum.
I'm not denying that air reaches the exhaust ports were just in argument over when it happens.
Again 3rd link confirms what I said already.
2nd link also confirms what I said. it also states that air is directed to ports by the switching valve when it receives vacuum. Again I described the situations in which that happens.
When the relief valve has no vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is not used as it goes through the air chamber and air silencer. When the relief valve has vacuum, the air coming from the air pump is directed to:
either the port air tract (if switching valve has vacuum) or the split air tract (if switching valve has no vacuum)
the intake tract if the anti afterburn valve has vacuum.
I'm not denying that air reaches the exhaust ports were just in argument over when it happens.
Again 3rd link confirms what I said already.
When are you in vaccuum? At idle. The Port air tract injects air into the exhaust port.
You just stated what I have been saying all along, which is that the air pump injects air through the port tract in vaccuum. You are in vaccuum at idle. The destination of the port air tract is the exhaust ports. Therefore you are injecting air into the exhaust ports at idle.
Additionally I took out and quoted exact text from the second link that supports what I'm saying. "no load" means idle. Therefore if you're injecting into the port air tract under no load, you're injecting air into the exhaust ports at idle. This does not support what you're saying.
Last link says:
The air pump usually pumps air right into the exhaust port area ("port air" in Mazda's terminology) and before the factory narrowband oxygen sensor.
-Geoff
Last edited by CloudPump; 07-04-13 at 10:37 AM.
07-04-13, 12:12 PM
#75
Well I just read through it again. Discovered more keypoints and read what you said so according to that the switching solenoid conducts vacuum from idle to 3500..and the relief valve is open idle to 3500. So that means that the switching solenoid cuts off vacuum to the diaphagm to send air to the split air passage and that happens after 3500.
I'm sorry. I was wrong. I'm just used to everything I've been taught at school regarding air pumps apparantly Mazda likes to do things a bit differently on the RX7.
But...if air is mixing with the exhaust that would produce a leaner af (like you originally said). So a narrowband o2 would see this and the ecu would richen up the mixture to combat the lean reading? Unless the it doesn't add fuel when the port air tract is open..
Again, you guys were right I apologize. I forget that not every manufacturer does it the same way I just made assumptions based on what I've been taught about every other manufacturer. Boy I feel stupid...oh well at least I can admit it.
edit- it must only direct air to the ports during open loop...in closed loop that would be richening it up..got it nvm
I'm sorry. I was wrong. I'm just used to everything I've been taught at school regarding air pumps apparantly Mazda likes to do things a bit differently on the RX7.
But...if air is mixing with the exhaust that would produce a leaner af (like you originally said). So a narrowband o2 would see this and the ecu would richen up the mixture to combat the lean reading? Unless the it doesn't add fuel when the port air tract is open..
Again, you guys were right I apologize. I forget that not every manufacturer does it the same way I just made assumptions based on what I've been taught about every other manufacturer. Boy I feel stupid...oh well at least I can admit it.
edit- it must only direct air to the ports during open loop...in closed loop that would be richening it up..got it nvm