94 Build... GT35R, RE Vmount and a whole lot more............ NOW WITH PISTONS!!
09-02-13, 03:55 PM
#601
That vid doesn't quite do him justice... I had the pleasure of caravan up to PR with him Saturday and his car is amazing... a little on the quiet side if you ask me (j/k). He did a couple pulls while I was with him and it performed flawlessly... while I was busy misshifting... ugh.
I said it repeatedly at the event and I'll say it again... Josh's car is one I look to when I am trying to plan out next steps for my car.
I said it repeatedly at the event and I'll say it again... Josh's car is one I look to when I am trying to plan out next steps for my car.
09-02-13, 11:43 PM
#603
Yep, that is what I am considering.
I want to look into it more, but I may use 2 DM100's in place of the coolant and oil pressure, then go back to my stock column. This way I can display up to 8 metrics, or 4 and 1. Either way, something has to happen with this flakey speedo and tach.
I want to look into it more, but I may use 2 DM100's in place of the coolant and oil pressure, then go back to my stock column. This way I can display up to 8 metrics, or 4 and 1. Either way, something has to happen with this flakey speedo and tach.
09-03-13, 04:36 PM
#604
Turbo Death....
Well, after an awesome weekend and 3 days of driving my car, I pulled into the garage and heard a nice chatter after I shut it down... Pulled the intake pipe and yep, turbo is is hitting...
Some facts...
The turbo is used. I bought it from Logan at Defined and everything looked awesome when I received it. Shaft play was on point and the compressor and turbine were perfect. I did notice smoke during startup from the beginning. I am running a .030 restrictor as per Garrett. I asked my tuner about it during the dyno, and he said it could be 3 things... my premix, turbo, or side seals. He said it looked like turbo and I agree. It has consistently smoked during startup with this turbo. My engine didn't do it with the old turbo. I am in no way saying Logan sold me a bum product. But with any used part, you never really know exactly where it stands, or can predict failure even if you're the seller.
The turbo performed perfectly during the dyno session with no weird noises during shutdown or pulls.
I did notice that it spins freely when everything is cold. You can't tell there is anything wrong apart from some shaft play. The shaft play is there, but nothing hits when spinning it or moving it to each side trying to make it hit. Start it up and let it idle and I can definitely hear it as I put my ear to the compressor. Shut off the engine and it chatters during spin down, and chatters when spinning by hand. Once it cools, nothing....
I haven't taken it apart yet but I have ZERO visible compressor wear from my pre-turbo WI. I'm really not suspicious of the WI affecting it. The wear I would see would be erosion of the blades themselves, not the degradation of the bearings and added shaft play that I am experiencing.
So what killed it???
1. Used turbo - The turbo was on its last leg, and taking it to 24psi for a dyno day, and 2 days of driving it.
2. No BOV - I am not running a BOV, and the surge killed it in 3 days.
3. A combination of both. A used turbo, coupled with the added stress of no BOV sent it to its grave.
The Fix
First order of business is that I am installing a damn BOV...lol. Whether the debate is true or not, it can't hurt. My Tial 50mm worked great in the past and never had a leak. I'll be putting it back on and don't plan to visit the grey area that is "no BOV"
I'm sending my P-trim 35R to Turblown for assessment. From here, we will look at options.
1. Rebuild and continue with what I have.
2. Upgrade to a TDX61, retune, and see how she does
3. Switch to a BW S366
All have their benefits and drawback, so we will see what happens.
I'm still very happy with the car. We live and learn of what works and what doesn't. I'm a little frustrated, but it comes with the territory. My car still did great, and every other system that affects power did awesome. Just a slight setback.
Well, after an awesome weekend and 3 days of driving my car, I pulled into the garage and heard a nice chatter after I shut it down... Pulled the intake pipe and yep, turbo is is hitting...
Some facts...
The turbo is used. I bought it from Logan at Defined and everything looked awesome when I received it. Shaft play was on point and the compressor and turbine were perfect. I did notice smoke during startup from the beginning. I am running a .030 restrictor as per Garrett. I asked my tuner about it during the dyno, and he said it could be 3 things... my premix, turbo, or side seals. He said it looked like turbo and I agree. It has consistently smoked during startup with this turbo. My engine didn't do it with the old turbo. I am in no way saying Logan sold me a bum product. But with any used part, you never really know exactly where it stands, or can predict failure even if you're the seller.
The turbo performed perfectly during the dyno session with no weird noises during shutdown or pulls.
I did notice that it spins freely when everything is cold. You can't tell there is anything wrong apart from some shaft play. The shaft play is there, but nothing hits when spinning it or moving it to each side trying to make it hit. Start it up and let it idle and I can definitely hear it as I put my ear to the compressor. Shut off the engine and it chatters during spin down, and chatters when spinning by hand. Once it cools, nothing....
I haven't taken it apart yet but I have ZERO visible compressor wear from my pre-turbo WI. I'm really not suspicious of the WI affecting it. The wear I would see would be erosion of the blades themselves, not the degradation of the bearings and added shaft play that I am experiencing.
So what killed it???
1. Used turbo - The turbo was on its last leg, and taking it to 24psi for a dyno day, and 2 days of driving it.
2. No BOV - I am not running a BOV, and the surge killed it in 3 days.
3. A combination of both. A used turbo, coupled with the added stress of no BOV sent it to its grave.
The Fix
First order of business is that I am installing a damn BOV...lol. Whether the debate is true or not, it can't hurt. My Tial 50mm worked great in the past and never had a leak. I'll be putting it back on and don't plan to visit the grey area that is "no BOV"
I'm sending my P-trim 35R to Turblown for assessment. From here, we will look at options.
1. Rebuild and continue with what I have.
2. Upgrade to a TDX61, retune, and see how she does
3. Switch to a BW S366
All have their benefits and drawback, so we will see what happens.
I'm still very happy with the car. We live and learn of what works and what doesn't. I'm a little frustrated, but it comes with the territory. My car still did great, and every other system that affects power did awesome. Just a slight setback.
09-03-13, 04:48 PM
#606
#garageguybuild
iTrader: (32)
Sorry to hear about the turbo...
How about the S363, has about the same power potential as a S366 w/better spool.
And you can't beat the price of a BW turbo.
Check out Howard's comparison 366 vs 363 in the single turbo section.
.
How about the S363, has about the same power potential as a S366 w/better spool.
And you can't beat the price of a BW turbo.
Check out Howard's comparison 366 vs 363 in the single turbo section.
.
09-03-13, 04:59 PM
#608
-4 size Oil inlet fitting for GT28/30/35R with built-in restrictor : atpturbo.com
09-03-13, 05:02 PM
#609
It's all so funny because this couldn't have come at a worse time. My wife and I just bought a house in another state in anticipation of moving this January and we are dealing with all the expenses of that. Not to mention with the financing, I can make no purchases or change my credit until we close on the house.
Nonetheless, Rx7's show you patience, and it will be back on the road all in good time.
Paint looks sick though right
Nonetheless, Rx7's show you patience, and it will be back on the road all in good time.
Paint looks sick though right
09-03-13, 06:13 PM
#610
How would you like to personally talk to the chief firmware writer at Haltech? Sounds like a long shot huh? Say for some reason you did end up talking with him....and somewhere in the convo you mentioned the need for some sort of firmware update for something that was needed to better suit your needs and the rotary community, hence it would be justifiable to write a new firmware code. But, its Haltech they would prolly laugh at all of this and say sorry. Whether it was for the simple reason that there aren't enough Rotary users running platinum series ECU's or the fact that it'd be too much $ for the company as a whole, if demand isn't there. In any case you get the picture, unwilling due to various reasons.
On the other hand, Adaptronic, you can openly communicate to the developer/owner right here on this forum. Or the Adaptronic forum. Have the same request and why its valid, boom he'll write a new firmware upgrade for all suitable models of Adaptronic ECU's.
Maybe that will help you see the light. Support is everything in the ECU world.
On the other hand, Adaptronic, you can openly communicate to the developer/owner right here on this forum. Or the Adaptronic forum. Have the same request and why its valid, boom he'll write a new firmware upgrade for all suitable models of Adaptronic ECU's.
Maybe that will help you see the light. Support is everything in the ECU world.
Yep, that is what I am considering.
I want to look into it more, but I may use 2 DM100's in place of the coolant and oil pressure, then go back to my stock column. This way I can display up to 8 metrics, or 4 and 1. Either way, something has to happen with this flakey speedo and tach.
I want to look into it more, but I may use 2 DM100's in place of the coolant and oil pressure, then go back to my stock column. This way I can display up to 8 metrics, or 4 and 1. Either way, something has to happen with this flakey speedo and tach.
does he continue to do quick changes and add features at customers' requests? i hope so.
please keep in mind i'm not talking bad about the ECU (sure, a few little jabs about it) but i'm posting about it because it's piqued my interest, and elliot seems to be nearly singlehandedly spreading these things like wildfire. i want to see what it can do. adaptronic, please send me a free unit and i'll do a comparison
09-03-13, 06:22 PM
#612
Josh,
So sorry about your turbo
I don't think not having a BOV was a major contributor to this.
FACT: Running no BOV will not kill a turbo that fast. (1 week)
Personally I know Calvin Wan has been running his car with no BOV for years with full abuse from drifting. No issues.
Honestly, it probably was too small a restrictor like mentioned before or used part but ALSO your doing WI.
Im wondering if the added mist was putting stress on the bearing because its much more dense cool air. At the rpm's that the turbo spins in it will have more affect on the bearing because the compressor has more to bite. Its not just biting air, there is actually a mist of water there as well.
The blades at that speed will actually slap against the water molecules hitting it downward / upward / whatever the angle the blade hits it at. That hitting puts stress / additional load on the bearing.
Watch this vid, at 1:20 it does the water test. You can hear the blades hitting the water. Yes its much more then your WI, but it does put stress on bearing.
Yes I know a turbo is different from a jet engine, I was a jet mech in the navy, but still compressor wheels / vanes still have to bite the air and whatever is in it.
Also an article with compressor surge:
Turbocharger - Examination Notes For Marine Officers,E books,Model question papers,MMD exam papers
I would not worry about not having a BOV, the amount you drove you car is less then the abuse at 1 drift event.
My finger goes to restrictor and the turbo not being designed for use with WI or the rate at which your WI was working because you were really boosting a lot.
That's just my gut feeling, but Its not the fault of not having a BOV based of field experience.
Ben
So sorry about your turbo
I don't think not having a BOV was a major contributor to this.
FACT: Running no BOV will not kill a turbo that fast. (1 week)
Personally I know Calvin Wan has been running his car with no BOV for years with full abuse from drifting. No issues.
Honestly, it probably was too small a restrictor like mentioned before or used part but ALSO your doing WI.
Im wondering if the added mist was putting stress on the bearing because its much more dense cool air. At the rpm's that the turbo spins in it will have more affect on the bearing because the compressor has more to bite. Its not just biting air, there is actually a mist of water there as well.
The blades at that speed will actually slap against the water molecules hitting it downward / upward / whatever the angle the blade hits it at. That hitting puts stress / additional load on the bearing.
Watch this vid, at 1:20 it does the water test. You can hear the blades hitting the water. Yes its much more then your WI, but it does put stress on bearing.
Yes I know a turbo is different from a jet engine, I was a jet mech in the navy, but still compressor wheels / vanes still have to bite the air and whatever is in it.
Also an article with compressor surge:
Turbocharger - Examination Notes For Marine Officers,E books,Model question papers,MMD exam papers
I would not worry about not having a BOV, the amount you drove you car is less then the abuse at 1 drift event.
My finger goes to restrictor and the turbo not being designed for use with WI or the rate at which your WI was working because you were really boosting a lot.
That's just my gut feeling, but Its not the fault of not having a BOV based of field experience.
Ben
Last edited by Rotary Extreme Sales 1; 09-03-13 at 06:42 PM.
09-03-13, 07:26 PM
#614
Many people are running the same setup as mine (preturbo WI with atomizer) are not having any issues either.
On the no BOV, I said the same thing. Much of the reason I chose not to run one! We have talked about this alot. I know Calvin doesn't run one. Many folks don't, with no issues. Aussies tend to not. It's such a grey area though.
On the restrictor, I am running the exact restrictor recommended for a ball bearing 35R. I mis-spoke earlier. It is the .035 that Elliot recommended with a -4 AN feed.
I'm just not sure what to think of the failure. It's so illusive. I am definitely looking forward to seeing what Turblown finds when disassembled.
Thanks for your input!
09-03-13, 07:29 PM
#615
Is it possible that since you have your water nozzle far away the mist is getting disrupted by the curve of the intake piping and by the time it gets to the turbo you actually have some water condensation running off the pipe causing the turbo to hit large droplets. I guess this would show blade wear but the turbo went kind of quick.
I think your old set-up was better, the mist was were it should have been. Just a mist straight into the turbo, no curves for water condensation to collect on.
Maybe the turbo was on its way out anyways and the added stress from high boost and WI did it in.
I think your old set-up was better, the mist was were it should have been. Just a mist straight into the turbo, no curves for water condensation to collect on.
Maybe the turbo was on its way out anyways and the added stress from high boost and WI did it in.
Last edited by Rotary Extreme Sales 1; 09-03-13 at 07:35 PM.
09-03-13, 07:44 PM
#616
And the trubo was draining properly yes, to the pan, no kinks
Is it possible that the oil got contaminated during tuning and or at anytime at all. Too much fuel causing the oil to become an issue. I know you said you changed your plugs. But all that time you were starting your engine, was fuel going in and no spark. Did you change the oil before the tune. was the oil a little diluted.
smell it now, does it smell a lot like gas.
Is it possible that the oil got contaminated during tuning and or at anytime at all. Too much fuel causing the oil to become an issue. I know you said you changed your plugs. But all that time you were starting your engine, was fuel going in and no spark. Did you change the oil before the tune. was the oil a little diluted.
smell it now, does it smell a lot like gas.
09-03-13, 10:01 PM
#618
Is it possible that since you have your water nozzle far away the mist is getting disrupted by the curve of the intake piping and by the time it gets to the turbo you actually have some water condensation running off the pipe causing the turbo to hit large droplets. I guess this would show blade wear but the turbo went kind of quick.
I think your old set-up was better, the mist was were it should have been. Just a mist straight into the turbo, no curves for water condensation to collect on.
Maybe the turbo was on its way out anyways and the added stress from high boost and WI did it in.
I think your old set-up was better, the mist was were it should have been. Just a mist straight into the turbo, no curves for water condensation to collect on.
Maybe the turbo was on its way out anyways and the added stress from high boost and WI did it in.
And the trubo was draining properly yes, to the pan, no kinks
Is it possible that the oil got contaminated during tuning and or at anytime at all. Too much fuel causing the oil to become an issue. I know you said you changed your plugs. But all that time you were starting your engine, was fuel going in and no spark. Did you change the oil before the tune. was the oil a little diluted.
smell it now, does it smell a lot like gas.
Is it possible that the oil got contaminated during tuning and or at anytime at all. Too much fuel causing the oil to become an issue. I know you said you changed your plugs. But all that time you were starting your engine, was fuel going in and no spark. Did you change the oil before the tune. was the oil a little diluted.
smell it now, does it smell a lot like gas.
My oil looks and smells fine. I checked it. It had a fresh change with Mobile 1 10w30 before I started the car. Drove it around 200 miles before the tune, and around 200 miles after.
I appreciate your brain storming with me.
I'm definitely curious to see what happened. I have hopes that we will get more information when Turblown takes it apart.Thanks!
09-03-13, 11:42 PM
#619
Yeah, I really hope all goes well. At least your engine is good.
Well Im just speculating, I do not have WI experience but Im learning a lot in here. I guess the stuff Im talking about is just long term effect.
Anyways, anxious to see the results too.
Off to Kazakhstan!
Well Im just speculating, I do not have WI experience but Im learning a lot in here. I guess the stuff Im talking about is just long term effect.
Anyways, anxious to see the results too.
Off to Kazakhstan!
09-04-13, 10:06 AM
#621
Damn, Josh. I go out for dinner and all is right with the world. I come back and what the hell? You know, I'm sure its all gotten better since I went NA, but running 23 psi on ball bearings when those turbos were a bit newer often burnt out the turbo. You'll get it sorted out though. (I went NA in part to get completely away from turbo issues and am just now -- after 6 years for God's sake -- starting to see the fruits of my labor.) My broad recommendation is to run way less than max boost (440-460-ish whp?) and use WI just as safety net. You've got the move and so much related to that right now that you can spend whatever time you have leftover figuring out what to do. But you lose the car for a while... Sorry, man, but as you said, best paint around!
Gordon
Gordon
My 2 cents.
Run a blow off valve. There's no reason not to. It didn't cause your problem.
The turbo was obviously on its last leg. If you don't have any compressor blade pitting, the WI hasn't had time to cause bearing play. Which it will, just over a longer period of time.
09-04-13, 10:44 AM
#622
My 2 cents.
Run a blow off valve. There's no reason not to. It didn't cause your problem.
The turbo was obviously on its last leg. If you don't have any compressor blade pitting, the WI hasn't had time to cause bearing play. Which it will, just over a longer period of time.
Run a blow off valve. There's no reason not to. It didn't cause your problem.
The turbo was obviously on its last leg. If you don't have any compressor blade pitting, the WI hasn't had time to cause bearing play. Which it will, just over a longer period of time.
I'll definitely be keeping everyone updated. I should get to pulling the turbo tomorrow evening, and get it sent to Turblown.
09-04-13, 10:49 AM
#624
my BOV seems to be "slow," probably because of a relatively stiff spring. i may as well not even have one, if we're talking from a reliability standpoint.
i get a lot of surge before the BOV even opens, then the BOV opens with the big air rush sound.
i get a lot of surge before the BOV even opens, then the BOV opens with the big air rush sound.
