BizarroTerl

Shouldn't charges for restocking fees include receipts?

Regardless, communication beforehand goes a long way towards preventing "misunderstandings".

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

sure i can show receipts, still wouldn't matter.

Kolokoi

iTrader: (7)

[QUOTE=BizarroTerl;11008625]Any parts that are not returnable belong to Josh and he should get those parts with the purchase costs (and any labor costs for research/purchasing/returns) deducted from the original deposit.


but josh insist of getting the $2000 in cash when he pick the car up from ben and he didn't want the parts that ben ordered. and Josh never gave a chance to let ben return the parts that he ordered. so it was a lose, lose situation from ben.

rx7roller02

I'm going to stop you right there because you are not telling the whole story. Ben himself admitted that he gets to taking too much time on his projects. This isnt a case of a customer simply changing their mind, it is a case of a customer expecting a job to be done in a specified time frame--and when it wasnt even begun in that time frame, the customer pulled out of the deal. Here's the story on this--a verbal contract is still a contract. So, when Ben told the customer that he expected to have the job done in a certain amount of time, and it wasnt even started in that time, he was within his rights to pull his car from the shop. Let's not forget now, as apparently you are, this was a major undertaking for this customer. It isnt like he drove down the road a few blocks and parked his car in the shop. The man traveled from a different state--and you make it sound like he simply just changed his mind. Sorry, that isnt going to cut it.

And the customer has a valid point when he was mad about other work being done to other cars while his car sat. I own a business, and the only thing my customers care about is how I take care of THEIR needs, not everyone else's. And some of my customers spend thousands of dollars with me, just like this case. When I spend thousands of dollars somewhere, I expect to be treated with prompt courtesy, and I expect when the man says it will be ready, that it is ready. If it isnt, thats not the customer's choice or fault. Granted, we all have bills to pay, but thats the juggling game we business owners play. I spend a couple hours on some jobs, several days on others....and the only thing my customers want is to have it done right, when it was supposed to be done. Anything else and I have not acted professionally. It is that simple. As a business owner you should have no problem understanding that.



Yeah, about that...customer gives Ben $2000.....Ben is in this thread complaining about how he is stuck with $375 worth of apex seals and "other misc parts..."....? Someone isnt telling the truth in this thread. Where did the rest of that money go? Did it all go to parts, or did it go to help someone else's predicament? Someone needs to come clean on this one.

In either event, Ben had to eat the parts because Ben did not follow through on what he told his customer. It is that simple. Ben admitted that he didnt use the time to work on this car. He admitted using the time to work on other things. There is NO WAY that I am going to sit here and let you or anyone else blame the customer for that! Not gonna happen. Imagine if Ben had spent that time working on the car? He at least would have had progress to show the customer, and THEN you can make the case for needing more time to finish.

You couldnt be more wrong, chief. The "personal problem" that the customer had is that Ben said "your car will be done in about this much time"....and then when that time passed, not one thing was touched on the car!!! YOU ARE IN A SERVICE INDUSTRY. That means you have to SERVICE customers. THEY do not have to SERVE YOU. When you tell a customer something, it is UP TO YOU TO DELIVER. It is NOT UP TO THE CUSTOMER TO LET THEIR CAR SIT WITH NO WORK BEING DONE. The customer paid money to get his car WORKED ON, not to let it sit and collect dust. THEREFORE, the customer is NOT LIABLE for the fact that he pulled the car because it was left collecting dust. If Ben had worked on it as he promised, then this would not be an issue!!

I have a college education in criminal justice, in addition to my work here and elsewhere.....so I know the laws. You clearly do not.

I am amazed with his work as well, but that doesnt have any bearing on if he doesnt come through like this. And yes, this is the one and only time I can ever recall Ben having this issue, but he DID still have it this time, and he IS still liable because of it.

A word of caution to you as well--I know you are partial to Ben because he did work on your car. But here's the deal, that bias has no place in this thread. Ben did wrong. It is up to Ben to fix it. And I am not going to allow anyone to falsely blame another member for anything. Ben made it clear in his own words that he did not come through....so I do not want to hear any more blaming the buyer. If I took my car to your shop, and you told me "it will be done in a month", and after that month you havent touched the car, you are at fault. Plain. Simple. shouldnt need any more explanation, and certainly shouldnt warrant the way you pin blame in the wrong place.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

everyone keeps saying a specified timeframe, as if i used words like "would be done" or "will be done". i use "will be about", if people want to put words into my mouth then they need to prove it themself.

again, i'm not out to get anyone, take their money or waste their time. as i also mentioned if you cannot give some leighway then do not waste my time either in coming to my shop. not one person can ever truly guarantee a timeframe, ever. the timeframe also hadn't expired yet.

here is the list i made up for josh without rooting up for the receipts, wasting more time on this just to prove something of which i care a little too much about...

front and rear main seal $12.50
ALS apex seal set $400
apex seal spring set $83
side seal spring set $80
side seal set $153
corner seal spring set $22
oil control o-ring set $40
coolant seal set $100
front cover gasket $15
rear gear o-ring $7.50
pilot bearing and seal $11
dowel pin o-ring set $41
front cover o-ring $3
e-shaft thermal pellet $10
w/pump housing gasket $5

total $983

add shipping and you get the picture. coolant seals and a few other minor misc things i had in stock, most others i order a few sets at a time to restock when i have a few rebuilds in process.

Japan2LA

iTrader: (256)

$120.00 in your pocket is NOT worth the stress and headache..

rx7roller02

OK, with all respect to you Ben, you need to stop making excuses. "unsubstantiated"??? Are you serious? Look at the car! Whether he exactly knew or not that you did nothing to the car, YOU STILL HAD DONE NOTHING TO THE CAR. Right or wrong???



This is not a place for "what-if..." because the truth is the issue here. Truth--you had not touched the car, am I correct? Then you cannot blame him for pulling the car. you may think that because you didnt say "I promise it will be done in this time" that you are excused from meeting the time frame but you are not---you are the one that gave him a time frame, no? That means you legally agreed to get it done in that time.
And that's the key right there--and thats the reason why you cannot fault him or hold his money. Because at the end of the day you did not follow through with what you told him you would do.

I believe you should, yes.

Hey man, you have my respect. I'm not gonna try to chuck you under the bus, I just want things done right. You do awesome work and you are a true asset to this community. But please understand I cannot overlook things because of respecting you. I have never, not one time, heard a complaint about your work that I can recall. And I respect that you would like more opinion...I am providing you what would likely happen in small claims court because I am educated in the field. One of the forums I moderate, I help people who have been wrongly sued by crooked debt collectors....so I deal with civil law very frequently.


And if you had done that, and he still complained, then you leave that to me....like I said, I am not going to sit back and let someone get wrongly trashed. And if you gave him a full refund, there aint nothing else you could do at that point. I would back you up, believe that.

That all being said, I do hope you dont close your shop. Maybe it would help to slow things down for a while....maybe even consider charging more for some of your services---they are worth it. You cannot let the "economy" tell you whats up....I started our business in the middle of this economy and we are about to sign a MAJOR contract. I hope you can find a way to keep it going.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

it is when you need to pay rent and electric bill.

know what though? i'm done with this. most people seem split between whether im right or wrong. at this point i believe josh can do what he needs to do and the rest can take all of this at face value. i feel i bent over backwards through the rest, even in attempting to get to his car, problem is none of you are me or know what it takes to do this here in my shoes.

i've given the whole story from my perspective and people can or won't come to me, at this point that may be a blessing.

if the forum mods feel i am 100% wrong and need to be made an example of, then so be it.

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

everyone goes through a learning curve, just because some of us do certain work doesn't mean we are qualified to run a business.

Communication is the key, it does seem the original poster has not made any claims about lack of communication and I dont see claims Karack lied to him claiming to have done work on the car he had not done yet. Seems odd that there would be a lack of communication in regards to updates on the original poster's part?


Verbal agreements- sorry but that doesn't cut it these days. With email, PMs, phone, text- there is no reason for verbal anymore. It can be as simple as sending off a email saying "we discussed this and that today and this is what will happen as per our agreement"
I have had a customer straight up rip me off on a verbal agreement, he knew he had me what was I to do? Waste my time going to small claims court based on a verbal agreement for a job that was paid in cash anyhow? Funny he came to me the next year with another problem- karma does work in mysterious ways.

Think I dont have jobs sitting around without work started on them? I certainly do but that is what people can expect when dealing with specialized labor and services. I give them time frames and if I cannot meet that CALL them right away and explain. I dont moan and groan that I came in on Sunday- they dont want to hear it. You can work 7 days a week and the one job you DONT get to will still be disappointed. I would never, ever think of charging a guy storage who didnt want to wait any longer, I would make sure he still leaves shaking my hand

My customers spend tens of thousands with me on pretty much straight up labor, but SPECIAL order parts I insist on being paid in full up front because for me this means parts made just for that job that will not do me any good elsewhere. A set of seals- lets be real you can use those on another job.

The whole story is never given, that was the point of me linking that thread earlier- because all it takes is one misunderstanding to be broad casted over the internet to smear a man's name.

rx7roller02

Ben, you need to understand that "will be about 6 weeks" tells your customer SIX WEEKS. It isnt his fault--that is what you said to him. After 5 weeks, with nothing being touched, you said you could have had it done in a few weeks. So, lets say 4-5 weeks more. So now, "about 6 weeks" has turned into "10-11 weeks". What you did was set the expectation with your customer and then you didnt meet it. You do not have to say "exactly 6 weeks", honestly--with this car you were so far behind that "about 6 weeks" would have been 10-11. And you cannot fault a customer for that. When someone tells me "about 6 weeks", I would expect exactly that--about 6 weeks. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more, but not nearly twice the time. See my point?
What you need to do is do a better job of setting the expectation up front. Thats how I avoid this issue with my business. I actually tell my customers, and have it in writing on my documentation, that we are not responsible for delays beyond our control, etc etc. You need to cover yourself and protect your customer at the same time.

You need to think of it this way--most customers cannot do the work you do--if they could, they wouldnt take the car to you. They would do it themselves. So, most people do not know what it means to do what you do....they dont know the issues that can arise. They have no concept of the reality of what you do. So you need to let them know, educate them a bit. thats what I do, and I have not had a problem with this. If you do not set their expectation, you are leaving it wide open, and thats not a good thing.

Japan2LA

iTrader: (256)

Refund and be done...

Take the advise from someone who has been where you are now....many times...

Japan2LA

iTrader: (256)

Set the example, take the high road..

Believe me, I have been there...

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

if i even do choose to even be better than how i am perceived here, he is going to have to wait.

"i can't pull money out of my ***" in a frustruated voice. Josh will understand this.


i think i will go work security with my gf, less stress than this and more income.

guess i get to test ALS seals in one of my own cars. rest of the 2 month schedule will go to rent to get nicks car done, yay me i get to work 3 more months for free..

rx7roller02

Welcome to the wonderful world of being in business for yourself, Ben. It comes with the territory. We spend a lot of time working "for free". It's sometimes the nature of the beast. If you always work like this, then the business isnt the problem--maybe it is how everything is set up for your business. No business can survive without being profitable....

Natey

iTrader: (19)

On the other hand,
I set up an appt with Ben to have my REW rebuilt. I dropped off my car, and when he called and said it was ready, I drove up to his house and picked it up. I didn't hit him with a million questions, follow his every move on the internet, or ask for my car back because I had a feeling he hadn't started on it yet.

I DID ask for a mild street port and a vague timeframe, then I let Ben do HIS work. I don't even remember how long it took him, because I realized that good rotary techs are few and far between, and the last thing I'd want to do is end up back at Ricks Rotary, PR Motorsports or Rotorsport where they don't even ease it in slow.

This was back before he moved to Las Vegas, and my car's still running great after three summers of flogging at Laguna Seca/T-Hill/Infineon. If I ever have any questions about my car's internals, port work, or whatever, my builder is a PM away.

TENAZ

iTrader: (2)

This is my Tiny advise : I know economy is difficult around ths times for everyone.
over all Business Owners watch for their reputation and try to keep their customers Happy because they will refer you and when you have an issue like this customer Try to handle in a profesional manner doing that You don't see your reputation be affected

Akagis_white_comet

iTrader: (4)

I'm not sure if it is permissive for me to post in this thread, but I have read it start to finish so far and may have a solution that could turn this around.

After dealing with Defined Autoworks and what happened regarding my car, along with the conclusion, I can safely say that if a shop is determined to take the moral high road, it will only benefit their reputation. In regard to my situation, the issue being resolved in the way it was earned Defined Autoworks mention in my build thread to not be negatively swayed by the pre-resolution opinions. This is because I did not wish to unfairly tarnish their reputation. I wanted to make certain that Logan and Peter were given credit from me in the most visible locations, and what better way to make that visible than a 20B build thread?

Would I do business with Defined Autoworks again? Definitely! Since then, I've bought a few small items here and there from them, like turbo gaskets, engine mounts and other stuff I can't recall at the moment. Every time I've gone there since then, Logan and Peter have been nothing but awesome. That's why I recommend them to people, with the only stipulation being to get everything in writing so there aren't any more issues like I had. With anything like an engine rebuild, having everything in writing seems like a no-brainer, including a timeframe for completion.

On the flipside of the coin, another shop I previously dealt with in PA did pretty much the opposite. I purchased 3 products (bin frame, black bins and gray rear carpet) from them. When it arrived the carpet was hacked up, looked like a shop rag and the bin frame (stamped FB01, S4 part) had been modified for a S5 car, all of which were obscured in the one poor cell phone picture I saw. When I brought this to their attention, they said it was my problem, or I could buy another one from them (WTF?). As a result, they lost the sale on the other interior parts I wanted to buy, items that they had in stock and I really wanted too, all because of their attitude. The end result is that they lost a customer that had previously been very happy with their products, just because of their attitude. So I went elsewhere, got exactly what I wanted for quite a bit less, was exactly as described in several high resolution pictures and the seller was awesome to deal with.

It is my opinion that Karack has a common issue in certain small businesses: his eyes got bigger than his hands. He spread himself too thin by taking on too much work at one time. While I cannot comment on the volume of work Karack performs as I'm unfamiliar with his shop, a good example of appropriate time/work management is Kevin Landers' Rotary Resurrection. On his homepage, it lists the shop's current status regarding if he is accepting new jobs or not, how many 'slots' are open and when they will be accepting new jobs. Being that RR is a one-man show as well, Kevin has to be careful to not overextend himself. That care in time/work management is what earned him his reputation: deliver "X" product in "Y" time at "Z" cost, stating it upfront and doing it consistently.

Turning down work because you cannot realistically meet the timeframe is always better than doing a sloppy job or worse, not doing the job you were paid for. This is why RR has their current status on the front page, first and foremost. I've dealt with Kevin a few times and he's always been very easy to deal with, and overall a cool guy. As a result, he's gone out of his way to help me out on a couple parts that I really wanted, but couldn't buy till payday and would be gone by then. Didn't cost him anything to pull the ebay listings, but it sure made me a happy customer that WILL come back and refer my friends too.

Karack, I have to agree with RXRoller02 on this matter. By agreeing to have the work completed in a timeframe and not even beginning work by the deadline, you were in violation of the contract, not Josh. In doing so, you have no claim to any storage fees. If anything, the moral high road would be to make him whole by giving him a complete refund as well as offering to at least split the cost of airfare and gas that was purchased in dealing with your shop. If he was up to 1 hour away from your shop, I would consider it a write-off from the customer's perspective. But since he is 600 miles away, asking him to eat that is too much to ask anyone, given the situation.

In my opinion, you owe him the full $670 (the disputed $120 storage fee, plus his $550 worth of expenses in dealing with your shop) and a very humble apology. While I am not currently including 1200 miles on his FD as I have no frame of reference in regard to this, I believe that something appropriate should be offered to offset this as well. If someone with a better grasp of the FD would like to chime in, it would be most appreciated in order to come to the most appropriate conclusion.

To put it in perspective, it could be MUCH worse. Here in Ohio, one can sue to recover up to three times actual monetary damages, or $200 if there are no monetary damages, as well as court fees and legal counsel fees on top of that. Google "Ohio Auto Repair Rule" to see more details.

rx7roller02

Natey,

I already did say that I will not have anyone trying to bash the customer in this thread. Not everyone has the same level of understanding, and the only thing this customer did was take Ben at his word. When Ben said "about six weeks", the guy believed him....and why shouldnt he? The very nature of being a customer means that he doesnt know as much about these things as Ben. That is why it is our job as business owners to educate our customers on the reality of what we do in our respective fields. I NEVER do work for a customer that knows before I get there what the process is, how long it takes, or what it will cost. If they already knew, they wouldnt be calling me. The same applies here.

And this is the end of comments like "ask a million questions and follow their every move on the internet". The guy has EVERY RIGHT to ask questions, he's spending thousands of dollars!!! So knock it off. And he didnt follow Ben's every move either--he was already on the forum and noticed that Ben was on here. Skip the drama, or else do not post in these threads. You are not helping, youre making it worse.

We do not need any more comments about how great Ben's work is either, we all know it. He is very highly respected here for his work, by myself as well....but none of that changes what took place here.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

you can stop trying to teach me the argument of trying to meet deadlines now, as if i'm a child and haven't been doing this for a very long time.

sometimes i try to avoid calling people everyday to try and actually accomplish things, or write page essays on forums explaining myself wasting hours, digging the hole deeper.

i'm honestly sick of this job, sick of listening to whiners like josh make their own excuses after saying to my face that they had no personal issue with me or what i said/was doing, turning it all around on me as if i have so much free time on my hands that i should update everyone daily even if i don't have any updates to report, customer's do not need in depth details of other customer's builds either so i don't know what might even be expected other than the unacceptable answer "having issues getting this other car finished on time, your car and all behind it including the future appointments that keep calling every single ******* day bothering me to get their cars into the shop are getting pushed back"

i'm tired of putting myself out there for others just to get **** on in the end. in all honesty, if you own one of these cars and expect quick deadlines to be met always, you're in a different reality than the rest of us.

i have been fooling myself into thinking most customers were happy with the work provided versus timeframes taken. so if i'm not doing the job of making more than most people happy then i'm not even accomplishing what i thought i was. i know many people were happy but obviously fewer than i thought.

this isn't the first time i've had things get pushed back and i know it won't be the last either, but the stress of working 7 days having no life, no free time, dealing with issues like this... well i promise you it's over now, that's about the only thing i can promise.

the single largest issue most have is that their cars once they arrive are still in line, this makes the job seem to be taking even longer than it is. but wanna know what? "most" 7 owners are cheap *****, they can promise the moon but only end up wasting your time with their own promises. if i had to rely on promises that were made to me i would be stuck only working half the time while i constantly shuffled the flakes out to get the cars in. there were a number of times i extended myself in accepting payments and sitting on complete engines until the customer came up with the rest, understanding is also something obviously not every person is born with.

and please don't compare my work to Kevin's... just because the prices are similar does not mean the quality is.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i didn't put the mileage on his car, i did not twist his arm to come to me and tell him he had to fly here on a more expensive airline than the one i told him about. i tried to give him the cheapest alternatives, some he took, some he ignored and went his own path.

expecting me to eat his choices when i never had any obligation to, you might want to also look up the law in this regard.

here's my answer to that... "no", hopefully there is no miscommunication.


this bullshit thread is turning into this analogy:

go to a restaurant across town, order food and get an estimated time of 30 minutes, after 25 minutes you get no word that the food is going to arrive on time so you leave. on your way out you tell the maitre'd that you want to be reimbursed for your fuel, and wear and tear on your car driving there and back.

this is going above and beyond, or am i becoming mentally challenged from dealing with all these chemicals? starting to feel like i'm getting trolled here or something.

i tell you what... i COULD HAVE STILL COMPLETED HIS CAR ON TIME!

does that help? yes, i would have requested more time though. i prefer not to try and kill myself just to make a few bucks. the first half of the estimated 6 weeks was before i would even get started on it...

if i drive to new york to buy a hamburger then that is my choice, i also would figure someone with so much riding on it would have a little more patience than josh had which is why i accept the story of personal issues being the cancellation reason more than it not being accomplished within reason. it was an excuse, an excuse put onto me and now to make me look bad. to which i almost feel like not returning it out of spite and if he had a little more courtesy/understanding he would have had his full deposit and an apology.

i did apologize to him in person when he picked up the car but once he turned collections agent on "his money" that is when the divide started to form. he knew i was selling off personal property in order to recover his deposit, he got mad at me over my own frustruations to which i was getting mad at him over.

i showed remorse towards him, not one ounce returned to me. hopefully some of you understand how that feels.

rx7roller02

And I agree, Ben. You are not responsible for mileage on a car. That mileage was to be put there by his choice, and even if you had done the work the car would still have that mileage on it. This is not about mileage, or anything else. It is about money that changed hands. Thats it.

FYI to all who intend to post here, there will be no more talk about nonsense like this. You are all welcome to your opinions, but if your opinion contains stuff like that, better to keep it to yourself. This is not a "lets bash the customer" thread, and LIKEWISE, it is not a "lets bash karack" thread either. I've never personally met Ben, but he is one of the good guys, and I will NOT TOLERATE this crap. Few people in this community work as hard as Ben has for the members here.


this bullshit thread is turning into this analogy:

See above, dont worry about that because I do believe I made my point clearly enough.

I think you are letting the frustration get the best of you now, to be honest. You already told us that you do not deny that you most likely could not have done this.

But you need to understand that the law makes no provision for you to keep money for a service that you never ended up providing. You didnt sell him parts--you sold him the service of rebuild work. You did not provide any portion of that service. Hence, he is entitled to all of the money back unless you had some other arrangement with him that you apparently didnt have.

And I am going to back you on this here and now. There's a difference between wanting your money back on a deal that fell through, and people bombarding you like this. I will say it again, Ben is one of the good guys--and folks, pay attention real good--that list is SHRINKING. None of you benefit at all by treating him poorly. I understand that things get mixed up, and sometimes things do not go as planned, but there is no reason for hostility. If you demand your money back and the guy says "no, I'm keeping your $2000", then you have a reason to react. But in a case like this, there's a way to go about it.

Ben, I am here to stand in the middle, to help get things resolved. I am happy to do it. Forget about the nonsense of others posting who have no dog in the fight, so to speak. Let's see what we can work out so that everyone can move on. Let me know how I can help.

rx7roller02

In a single word, NO.

Please do not post in this thread anymore. We are looking for a solution, not opinions from people who have no dog in the fight.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

he'll get his refund back in the next week or so.

i believe things happen for a reason and i needed something to push me off the fence in one direction or the other and this was it. dealing with Cosmo's continually blowing up car, loss of a $4600 job in combination of days worth of effort recouping funds for parts that i have to sit on and numerous other small things that have been bothering me in combination of being overworked dealing with menial things to keep the shop operational isn't worth it anymore. the appreciation from some customers was noted and in return helped me get this far.

Natey

iTrader: (19)

I didn't mean to add to any drama, roller. I just saw "Karack, Scam" and a thumbs down and felt that someone oughtta throw 2 cents in as a happy customer. I've met Ben twice...When I dropped off my car and when I picked it up. I'm not backing up my bro or anything like that.

I wont post here any more.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

believe that i appreciate it, thanks.

the title wording is definitely bogus, and one of the things that urks me most about all of this drama. but he knew that when he posted it, he knew i wasn't out to rip him off but here we are. i would never intentionally take someone for their money, but my time is worth something as well and that is what i am here fighting for. i just still do not understand that in wanting a little more time i should have to pay out of pocket due to a miscommunication, because i am also losing money and time through this. making a huge list of repairs you should automatically understand that things will and do happen and things may take longer than anticipated, but again he never even said anything about it taking too long EVER! unless he is the backstabber type, saying one thing and doing another because he doesn't have the guts to ask or tell you anything. think he went up to Rick and told him he was overpriced? nope, he went home and typed up a bad report because he can't give honest feedback yet acts like everything is kosher to you in person.

it is bothering me because of his own untruthfulness in his reason for cancelling the job and painting me as an axe murderer who killed his babies, to which the sheep have already responded. nitpicking on little things blowing them up like the dust on the car, if you live in vegas you know that in one day your car looks like it has been sitting for weeks due to dust in this town(you also can be fined for not using an approved car wash station, so i wash them AFTER they are done. if i was expected to wash the car that i never got paid for then i should stand on the corner with a sign that states "will work for free"). was the tire sitting flat? no, it still had air but it was definitely low when he pointed it out to me, again his thinking was that i should have known like i check all 4 tires before i ever move a car.