David H

Rotary Rocket,

contact Jason at the Rx-7 Store he can suggest a coolingmist kit for you. There are coolignmist kits on the forum supporting 500 HP cars, so it will work well with your application and you dont have to pay an arm and a leg for it.

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

Thank you Richard L, that was a phenomenal summation -- it's only missing *one* item and it's what concerns me the most about AI -- can I use my existing ECU (Haltech E6X) to get the controller the signal it needs?

Richard L

Most if not all systems on the market do not use Fuel IDC as a primary input signal to control water/meth flow. If you want to go this route, Aquamist is your only choice.

Our current system HFS-6 (PWM-Valve system) converts the IDC % to flow. Signal is read from the fuel injector directly. In you case, you send the PWM signal to HFS-6 from the Haltech directly. Any PWM Frequency from 30Hz to 3KHz will work. The higher the frequency, the better it is.

The H6 is equipped with flow monitoring failsafe output to enable your ECU to switch map upon a failsafe activation. Can the Haltech switch maps "on the fly"?

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

I think "on the fly" would be possible only with a laptop. I don't think there's any way to do it without one. I'm looking through Haltech's updated E6X manual to see if there's any other way to do it.

I'm pretty deep into my project and set up the Haltech E6X before I had the slightest clue about AI (not to say that I have much of a clue right now, anyway), but I guess at this point switching ECUs is a possibility. I definitely want to have a sound system though.

I think it would be perfect if I could use an output from the Haltech to provide the source signal to the AI controller.

Thanks for all of the help. You and Howard are assets to this community.

EDIT: This implies that switching maps on the fly would be possible (in my mind...):

RotaryRocket93

iTrader: (7)

Richard,

Does Aquamist provide a kit that compares well with the basic trunkmount coolingmist kit that I posted a link to in the 1st page?

Richard L

After reading the attached image, it appeared the Haltech cab change map "on the fly". All you need to do is linking aux input to the Aquamist's map-switch output. Please confirm this with Haltech.

Let me know. Our map switch output is +5v (system OK) to 0v (failsafe activation).

Richard L

At first glance at the kit you mentioned is almost half the price of the aquamist's comparable system. (HFS-1). If you look a bit closer, you will find out why.

Similarity:
1. Both trunk mount
2. Both pumps are made by Aquatec USA. Can be set to 250psi (not recommended).

Difference:
4. Aquamist doesn't supply a tank
5. Aquamist can be triggered by IDC or OE MAP sensor signal. Coolingmist uses a mechanical pressure switch.
6. Aquamist uses an inline solenoid valve. Coolingmist uses a checkvalve.
7. Aquamist comes with three jets compared to Coolingmist's two.
8. Aquamist comes with the following, Coolingmist doesn't.
- Water level sensor
- 100 micron stainless inline filter
- Turbine based flow monitoring system with three failsafe outputs
- 52 mm Dash gauge with system on/off button
- Universal tank adaptor
- 1/8NPT Water jet adaptor with blanking plugs.
- Inline fuse holder with 15A fuse
- Universal tank adapor

Coolingmist: $350, Aquamist: $645. (MRRP)

The difference of $295 is for all the components on item#8. If you want to guard against a water system power failure, clogged nozzle or cut pipe, go for the aquamist.

HFS-1 user manual: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/V10/HFS-1-v10w.pdf (technical reference)

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

I did some research and confirmed that maps can be switched on the fly using the AUX input.

Now then, how does the Aquamist get the data it needs (from my ECU...or another sensor) for knowing when to inject water/meth?

Richard L

We have got over the difficult part. It is so nice to be able to do map switch "on the fly".

Here is what we need:

1. Haltech sends a PWM signal to the HFS-6's IDC input. (Anything between 12% to 100% DC)
2. Set the HFS-6 to the minimum triggering point (12%)
3. Lets say the haltech 's W/A map ranges between 15% to 80%
4. As soon as the Haltech sends out DC% greater than 12% the HFS-6 will start looking for flow.
5. If flow is not detected or confirmed within a preset period, the HFS-6 will send a signal to Haltech's AUX input and asks it to switch to a safer map (or reduce boost at the same time)
6. After a second preset period, if the flow is still absent, it will repeat the same cycle again.

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

I follow you until here:

By "W/A" I'm assuming you're referring to "water/alcohol" -- now where does this map come from and where is it stored? On the HFS-6? I'm probably missing something very simple here. Probably a tenant of AI that I'm missing, so I sound like a fool!

If only I had gotten in on that early '09 HFS-6 group buy! I keep looking for current ones.

Thanks again Richard. Invaluable information! Seriously. I'm sure this is answering some questions other members have as well.

Richard L

W/A = water/methanol. You were correct

The W/A map has to be made in the Haltech, H6 just does what it is instructed. If this is not possible, then just use the fuel map.

Almost all H6 tracks the fuel map because it is simple. This negates the necessity of re-doing the WI map everytime you change the fuel map. The H6 can rescale the OE's fuel map anyway.

For the next GB, you have to wait for the HFS-7.

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

Following the fuel map seems like the logical thing to do -- so I'm guessing there is some method for the system to "read" the Haltech's fuel map?

Any details on the HFS-7 GB yet? I might as well get my name on the list!

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

very nice post Richard. thanks. i suggest you post it in the main AI thread in the 3rd Gen section where it will be welcomed.

howard

link: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/making-case-rotary-powered-fd-fix-806104/

Richard L

The HFS-6 reads the "pulse" side of the fuel injector and converts to a user scalable variable to control the water/methanol flow.

It will take the signal from anyone of the Haltech's injector control pin. That is all you need to do.

HFS-7 is long way away, we have no plans to replace the HFS-6 just yet. I think it will be at least two to three years.

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

Excellent -- that's an easy enough explanation for me to understand.

Well I will scour for HFS-6 group buys in the meantime. I still have some weeks before my FB will be ready for AI. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my (asinine) questions!

Richard L

Sorry to be a bit too complicated, I though you were going to run a separate W/A map, independent of the fuel map.

There is no hurry, we are not make the H6 fast enough for the demand at present. There are a few RX7 GB purchases. Perhaps it would be faster to post to the "wanted" forum, some may decided to sell it.

The HFS-5 is not a bad system, I am sure there are a few NIB out there.

Richard L

Howard,

I will do my best to post there. It is a very busy thread. You are doing a great job informing people how effective AI injection can be.

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

I would like to do whatever is optimal for my setup, so if that means that running a *separate* W/A map is required, I will do what is necessary to handle that. I don't plan on tuning the car myself though! I will put it in the hands of Steve Kan or Jesus Padilla, whoever is closest to me in Georgia when I'm ready for it.

Would you recommend running an independent W/A map, and if so, how does one accomplish this? With a separate programmable controller that's not in the HFS-5/6 kit? It seems like the simplest setup is for the W/A system to use the fuel map from the Haltech, but that's from my pea-sized brain so I could be very wrong!

Richard L

.
"Being optimal" often means having an ideal fuel and ignition map. Sensors such as air, knock and lambda etc are used to further trimming the above under "less than" optimum operating environments.

Introducing another variable such as WA injection into your engine will affect the carefully balanced setup. In most cases, if the WA is not injected in excess or closely pegged to the power curve, you don't need a "too radical" remapping to your fuel and ignition maps. A minor fuel map change will ensure AFR is consistent through out the operating range.

If the WA injection does not vaguely resembles the fuel flow, system such as single point (all on/all off) or PPS system (limited dynamic range), you then need quite a radical remap especially you use quite large jets. In the event of a W/AI failure, you will not be able to drive you car safely under medium to high load.

The same scenario will apply if you decided to create you own WAI map (within the Haltech, via a 5th injector channel). I known that you might be able to get more out of the WAI system but inconvenient if the system breaks down. On the other hand, a "mirror" to fuel flow is less of a problem should the system breaks down. You just reduce the boost pressure and continue to run the car with very little risk of engine damage.

I am sorry to make my explanation so long but if it helps you to pick a system wisely. All forms of WAI system works and will give great performance gains. But only the a few can give you the convenience similar to a "lack of octane" situation if the system fails, the Aquamist HFS-6 is one of those.

.

Dysfnctnl85

iTrader: (11)

Your explanations are extremely helpful!

What I gather is...ASSuming the ignition and fuel maps are decent, an AI system that utilizes the fuel map is safe and efficient and may or may not require adjustments to allow for AI.

I would rather have support for system failure than introduce a variable that could spell the end for my motor.

I'm on the lookout for an HFS-6...

Thank you!

Richard L

HFS-5 will be just as good - I am sure you will be able to pick up a pre-owned one for around $600 to $650. Quite a few of them are entering the market place as the HFS-5 is not upgrade-able to HFS-6.

David H

I know you asked the other company if they have a kit comparable to our basic trunkmount kit. It was obvious to me you were not looking for a super complex kit. I want to make some clarifications, because it is misleading for aquamist to compare a $700 + kit to our basic kit and marvel at the great deal you get for just 350+ more. If you were looking for something with comparable hardware to what they posted here is our response. I think this is more accurate and in no way attempts to dis-respect the other company.

We can offer our CMGS stage 1 + smart controller + flow sensor without a tank for about $650. Lets go into detail to compare to the aquamist offering.

At first glance at the kit you mentioned is almost half the price of the aquamist's comparable system. (HFS-1). If you look a bit closer, you will find out why.

Similarity:
Both kit manufacturers have "MIST" in the name.
Pressure is about the same (150- 160 psi)
these kits do not come with a tank.
Both have Turbine based flow monitoring system
Both 52 mm Dash gauge with system on/off ability
Universal tank adaptor
Inline fuse holder with 15A fuse (coolingmist offering is integrated into gauge)


Difference:
4. Coolingmist offers tank choices including our custom engineered exclusive trunkmount tank. This is our own design.


5. Aquamist can be triggered by IDC or OE MAP sensor signal. Coolingmist can be triggered by RPM, Boost, MAP, MAF (not applicatable on the Rx-7). Coolingmist can read boost directly. You can also do cell by cell programming using our GRID setup with 2 or more inputs:




6. Coolingmist will increase flow with more signal (Aquamist is on/off)

7. coolingmist gives you the option of a solenoid activation or checkvalve. Aquamist will only give you a choice of soleloid.

8. Aquamist comes with three jets compared to Coolingmist's single jet sized for your vehicle (controller is fully adjustable).

9. Aquamist has only 3 failsafe outputs. Coolingmist has 5.

10. Coolingmist has superior failsafe ability. Aquamist failsafe is more basic, coolingmist is fully programmable and can use many conditions. For someone who is not technical, you may want to go with the Aquamist offering.

11. Aquamist comes with the following, Coolingmist doesn't.
- Water level sensor. (optional with coolingmist)
- 100 micron stainless inline filter (optional with coolingmist)
- 1/8NPT Water jet adaptor with blanking plugs.


Coolingmist: $650, Aquamist: $645. (MRRP)

The pricing is similar. If you want a superior failsafe and progressive controller choose coolingmist. If you want a basic failsafe that is more plug and play and a fixed rate (on / off) feel free to look further into the other offering.


Smart controller reference

http://www.coolingmist.com/instructi...ntechguide.pdf

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

David why is it you get banned every where you go? And why are you constantly trying to “defend” your products?

If you want to compare “cell by cell” systems then you should compare your product to the OLD as DIRT 2s system by Aquamist. Just remember the 2s system was out before you even started cooling mist. Aquamist is an ORIGINATOR they have more experance at this then virtually ANY ONE ELSE.

Cell by Cell type mapping is old technology/methodology. It is most CERTANLY NOT BEGINER FRIENDLY. Though for a knowledgeable user it is definitely more versatile.

In my opinion/experience injecting by virtue of IDC is the best compromise between User definability / System versatility / Ease of use, particularly for those users that use AI as a safety system VRS those that use it to augment power. Any other bells and whistles are just pitfalls that new users can and do goof up, which normally cost them an engine rebuild or worse. IDC is more than adequate, easy to use (READ less likely to screw it up) and versatile enough for the average user/setup.

Once a person learns enough and begins to recognize the inherent limitations of an IDC based system. There are a whole plethora of more advanced systems out there to upgrade to. But up until that point, an IDC based system is the (DARE I SAY) the perfect compromise for the average user. (IE first time buyer)

There is another topic I want to touch on – Reputation. Almost without exception EVERY SINGLE AI manufacture has an impeccable reputation. EXCEPT coolingmist. Coolingmist has a long history of shady conduct. Example--http://forums.evolutionm.net/water-a...fo-please.html

Please read that thread and decide for your self if coolingmist was forthright and honest…………..

Finally in a bid to be as forthright as I can be, I must acknowledge that coolingmist does have a significant advantage in one area. That is user documentation. But one must understand that Richard is an engineer, and he’s been doing this for so long that he doesn’t think like the average user does. And as a result the documentation that comes with Aquamist systems is not beginner friendly. But since Richard is a forum ***** like the rest of us you can simply ask him and get an answer from the “horse’s mouth” as it were.

RotaryRocket93

iTrader: (7)

Im pretty much going to go with the coolingmist trunkmount system for now, My setup isnt fancy, Im not pushing extreme numbers, im not planning on tunning for the water/meth injection so if it runs out I want hurt the engine. For now, the basic trunkmount is all I need. Once its plugged in Im barley expecting to push 320 hp on a conservitive tune. So for now, not that big of a deal. Down the road I might have to look into the more advanced systems.....

Pimp Hand

iTrader: (3)

As a side note I’ve recently learned of a brand spanking new technology that will revolutionize AI injection. Unless I miss my mark I would lay dollars to bones that Richard has heard of it, and they are exploring how to use this tech and still hit the necessary price point. Once that’s done the new tech will lay waste to all the current/older systems. Save your nickels and dimes boys……….It will be worth it.