neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

I was just thinking about this, since injection cleans the internals of the engine so well, doesn't it also strip the lubricating film from the OMP or Premix thus affecting apex/side/corner seal life?

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

That's a good question. I haven't seen anyone recommend a richer pre mix of 2 stroke oil if injecting water. I have been pre mixing 1oz per gallon, I wonder if more is recommend.

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

^1oz/gal. with or without the omp?


John

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

Without omp. Both with and without water injection

arghx

iTrader: (3)

There's probably some validity to that hypothesis. We don't really have the equipment to fully answer that question though. Based on everything I have read from Mazda about lubrication and oil film, I suspect the answer is yes. If you are interested, send me a PM and I can give you some more information to consider.

One of the drawbacks about using only premix is that you are limited by the amount you put into the gas tank. You are injecting the lubricating oil at a fixed ratio, so you are likely over-lubricating or under-lubricating at any given time. Despite all the issues with injecting crankcase oil, Mazda developed the OMP system primarily to give precise control over lubrication according to driving condition.

In a series of papers Mazda engineers have outlined the following factors for lubrication of the seals and sliding surfaces:

1) housing materials (manufacturing processes), which affect retention of the oil film. Mazda has used several different treatment processes over the years, with the most recent being the graphite coating for the housings and the nitriding for the irons.

2) apex seal materials--cast iron, ceramic, or carbon, all of which Mazda has used

3) apex seal temperature, which is mostly a function of rpm, engine load, and friction along the sliding surface

4) intake airflow, which is directly related to load


But here's the tricky thing. The biggest thing about lubricating the sliding surfaces is that it lowers friction and reduces seal temperatures (especially apex seal temps). But AI should in theory also reduce temperatures even though it probably washes away lubricating oil. So how do these factors interact? If the AI is reducing the oil film on the housings but also absorbing heat from the seals, how does all that work out? What are the main factors influencing the interaction of these two effects?

SkulkR1

iTrader: (1)

If using E85 would that affect the suggested oil amount?

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

I have boost-activated WI system on a mildly modded car with stock twins, stock ignition and a PFC.....
Regarding the original question.......
I have a working OMP and I pre-mix at approx. 1/2 oz. per gallon. I did this for the following reasons.....
1. Because of the very rational the OP mentioned. I was worried that WI would tend to "rinse" things too much.
2. Because I saw injector duty go to zero for long periods during decel from high rpm, I reasoned JUST pre-mix or JUST OMP were insufficient by themselves.
3. I had just installed new housings at no small expense and wanted them to last.
4. Because I reasoned that with WI I didn't have to worry about carbon build-up, even if I were injecting significantly more oil than considered "normal".

Been pre-mixing with the OMP about 2 years (but procrastinated and only got the AI up and running about 6 mos ago). So far I've had no obvious issues....fouling plugs, break-up, hard starting, pre-ignition etc. Vacuum is steady. But only time will tell if it really benefits internals that much. We'll see.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

no

a 30k mile engine that ran AI the whole time showed no excessive signs of wear.

cewrx7r1

iTrader: (2)

We need Howard's answer!

BDC

My experience suggests go heavy with it but my experience is also on the mega high alcohol injection side. Had chatter marks all over the rotor housings last time I tore the motor down. It's a 3mm motor so that might really just explain it. But I can't help but think it's worth looking into. However, like has been said, I doubt there's a gee-whiz easy answer to the question without really studying it over a longer period of time.

B

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

im just adding an extra ounce of 2 cycle oil, not sure it helps much with the max of alcohol/water im running thru my aux. injection setup, but the way i see it is it cant harm anything.

when i tore down my last motor i noticed grooves in rotor housings, i had them sent out and refinished. they told me its common with the use of a certain apex seal with some miles on them.
so who knows? *shrugs shoulders*

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i just bumped into this thread. an excellent subject and important.

i recently spent my research time digging into internal lubrication. i dumped my external oil pump in 04. my motors have not seemed to have internal rotor housing wear on them and i have been running around 1200 CC meth under boost. i premix 1/2 oz street and 1 oz dyno and track if i can ever get there...

the first efforts related to 2 cycle oil. from my research i concluded that, contrary to my thoughts that any TCW3 rated oil would work (and based on my engine it did) that alot more high temp lubricity could be obtained w a synthetic 2 cycle oil. further it is essential that the oil features heavy base oils.

our tiny turbo'd motors make huge amounts of power per displacement (1.3 liters!) and don't possess the every other cooling cycle of a 4 cycle.

we need lubricity and we need to have it at off the chart temperature and pressures.

we can learn alot from reading the 2 cycle racing data.

based upon my research the only premix i will run going forward is:

Pettit's ProTek R (an XR1 product made to rotary specs/synthetic)
Redline racing 2 cycle oil (very heavy duty stuff made from a very unique and expensive synthetic base)
Klotz R50 again a very strong synthetic

i am going to experiment w my mix and read my plugs.

i also think that it might be worthwhile to retain the external oil pump but ONLY if a 2 cycle reservoir is added.... under NO circumstances will any crankcase oil ever get into my motor's combustive internals.

i do feel that w the correct premix selection wear will not be a factor... but it isn't going to be w a low temperature TCW3 dyno oil.

my 2 cents

howard

oyvindjs

iTrader: (4)

a quick Q to the Klotz oil

I find both Super techniplate and the R-50 techniplate

http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail....00_Quart&cat=3

http://www.klotzlube.com/proddetail....04_Quart&cat=3

and the description is not that far off each others.

IS there any notisable difference between these oils?

edit: I see that the R-50 is NOT alcohol compatible after all, but the super techniplate is. Just so you dont use the wrong lube, as you are alco-mixing

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

re Klotz R50 and Klotz Super Techniplate (ST)...

ST has 20% castor oil which supplies film strength but does not work well w fuel injectors. castor oil creates deposits that eventually clogs injectors.

R50 is klotz's non castor oil heavy film strength product.

here's how they rate:
.................................................. ..R 50........Super Techniplate
Smoke rating.................................9.......... ..........8...............(10 being smokeless)
Clean Burning (carbon resid).........9....................7............. ..10 no carbon
Film Strength (the key).................10..................10....... .......10 highest strength

the Klotz engineer said the R50 has as much strength as the 20% castor oil ST w no clogging of injectors.

as far as alcohol compatible... i discussed the rotary premix situation and my meth AI with him. since i am adding it to my gasoline it is not an issue. if i were running meth as base fuel it would be an issue because it would not stay in suspension.

howard

oyvindjs

iTrader: (4)

ok, cool! Just wanted to mention it, just in case
R50 it is for me, to bad they dont sell it in Norway.... I will have to import it for... 19 dollars a liter....

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

i been using penzoil syntec blend., maybe i should go back to the penzoil full syntec

dark mephisto

So just wondering. I'm still running my omp but I have just installed a water injection kit and am only using a 130cc injector. Should i use a little pre-mix with my fuel or with this little of injection my omp system is adaquate?

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

It's can't hurt IMO...see my post above. You shouldn't see any smoke and the WI should control any carbon issues from the additional oil.
Maybe it's appropriate for your car but your nozzle size sounds a little small. How did you arrive at that....did you use Coleman's sticky calculations?

dark mephisto

sorry I didn't see your post! I was thinking of this before I installed the kit but I wasn't sure. Now to find me some pre-mix oil!

Right now I'm just running water injection for reliability. I was gonna run water/meth but I found out I can't for autox... The kit I bought has 3 injectiors and i'm not running big boost or anything. I just have a t04, 540cc primaries and 680 secondaries. At the most I'll ever run now is 13 psi. The three nozzles where 130mn/min, 315ml/min, and 550ml/min. So I thought that running 315ml/min would be too much for my system. Am I wrong?

tom94RX-7

iTrader: (5)

I would use the 130, you will notice a loss in power with a bigger size that isn't really needed imo. I ran big boost for a while with no water injection, only cause the water was hurting power and that was not helping me reach my goals with the stock turbos. Or use that 315 if you want extra insurance

I just blew my engine, it started losing power and compression after a problem with my water injection check valve and the engine was sucking in a lot of water until I found the problem and fixed the aem check valve. and may start using more than 1 oz per gallon premix

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

Go to the sticky and run the numbers for nozzle sizing. Just don't tune with it. As you said...its for reliability.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

injectors should be cleaned every other year anyways.

MADDSLOW

iTrader: (11)

Bumping this thread bc I've searched for it many times and enjoy Howard's take on heavy oils.

Quick question on your(Howard) explanation of the Super Techniplate clogging injectors:

After reading this thread, I began using the Techniplate R50 as a premix with the OMP still attached. I was considering blocking the OMP so I can use a high-zinc content synthetic, but I've been reevaluating the logic behind the 0% injector duty cycle upon decel. If I were to reroute the OMP to pull oil from a separate reservoir filled with premix, should I reduce my fuel premix of Techniplate R50 and use that lesser amount along with a reservoir of the Super Techniplate(two different oils)?

I have a feeling I'm looking WAY too much into this, but it was just a question that crossed my mind...

MADDSLOW

iTrader: (11)

Anyone?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i don't have any firm answers but i do have 5 years experience w no OMP and premix on a single motor. i ran no OMP and 1/2 oz Walmart 2 cycle on the street, 1 oz on the dyno. pump gas and around 900 cc.min of meth as AI injectant.

my motor slowly and constantly built compression over the 5 years. i decided to dis-assemble it for analysis. (i do a 6 page spec sheet on all my motors so i had a base on which to compare).

just to be clear, the motor was 100% when i decided to do some comparative work on it.

the housings were fine... (Atkins apex seals), the side seal gap had opened .001. the rotors were carbon free.

so it seems to me that premix works without an OMP. i see no problem w combining the two as long as you are not using crankcase oil. i would start by continuing the premix ratio and then check the plugs. my guess is that it would be best to continue the premix ratio w the OMP.

Howard