my third AI system
08-23-11, 07:26 AM
#26
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
last time i checked NASA prohibits running any AI injectant that can burn. a 50/50 mix can or cannot burn depending on the temperature... so it is probably o k.
the secondaries are wired parallel not series. i am wiring one AI injector off the front sec and the other off the rear. there is no issue as to timing as electricity travels at the speed of light.
i just finished my boost switch for the fuel pump. as delivered it closed the circuit at 4 psi. since it is adj i changed it to trigger at .5 psi.
the secondaries are wired parallel not series. i am wiring one AI injector off the front sec and the other off the rear. there is no issue as to timing as electricity travels at the speed of light.
i just finished my boost switch for the fuel pump. as delivered it closed the circuit at 4 psi. since it is adj i changed it to trigger at .5 psi.
08-23-11, 09:16 AM
#27
Yes, 50/50 meth/water is allowed. It specifically states that you cannot inject methanol/alcohol in above a 50% concentration. I am trying to make the case that since e85 is allowed as a race fuel it should be allowed to be injected, especially when using a setup such as this that is actually safer than the stock fuel system, but I doubt it will go anywhere. Oh well. As it stands, I have a hybrid turbo so I am not making enough power to justify a full meth system anyway (400 WHP MAX). I will probably get a normal cheap 50/50 system just as added insurance until I finish upgrading everything else.
What you described for the wiring is actually exactly how I had envisioned it as well. The issue with them being further upstream wasn't due to extra time for the signal to get there, but because it is physically farther up the intake it will take longer for it to get there. I was under the impression that the secondaries kicked in momentarily sooner vs. the primaries to account for this and wasn't sure if that would be necessary for the meth injectors that would be even further back. I guess at those air speeds it doesn't make too much difference, plus its still a vast improvement over the "garden hose" method.
What you described for the wiring is actually exactly how I had envisioned it as well. The issue with them being further upstream wasn't due to extra time for the signal to get there, but because it is physically farther up the intake it will take longer for it to get there. I was under the impression that the secondaries kicked in momentarily sooner vs. the primaries to account for this and wasn't sure if that would be necessary for the meth injectors that would be even further back. I guess at those air speeds it doesn't make too much difference, plus its still a vast improvement over the "garden hose" method.
08-23-11, 01:32 PM
#28
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Sorry for this being a bit off topic HC but since you seem to be one of the leading minds around here on AI I figured I'd ask you.
Can 50/50 mix be run through a normal fuel injector without any ill effects or will it lead to problems and failure of the injectors?
Can 50/50 mix be run through a normal fuel injector without any ill effects or will it lead to problems and failure of the injectors?
08-25-11, 10:51 PM
#29
It turns out there is already an e85 station in Temple (opened a few months ago) so I will almost certainly be switching to e85 whenever I get the money to do it properly (next year sometime).
As for running a water/meth mixture through fuel injectors, I would be a bit wary about that. I have no firm data or experience to back this up, but I would think the water could cause some corrosion problems with them. Obviously you should wait for a stronger answer, but I wouldn't attempt it until you get an affirmative, which I would doubt will be the case anyway.
As for running a water/meth mixture through fuel injectors, I would be a bit wary about that. I have no firm data or experience to back this up, but I would think the water could cause some corrosion problems with them. Obviously you should wait for a stronger answer, but I wouldn't attempt it until you get an affirmative, which I would doubt will be the case anyway.
08-26-11, 08:27 AM
#30
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"Can 50/50 mix be run through a normal fuel injector without any ill effects or will it lead to problems and failure of the injectors?"
the EV 14 is all stainless steel w the exception of the spring. being Bosch i can assure you it is the highest quality SS. i would not hesitate to use it and would look at it from time to time. the injector is not expensive and changing it out every couple of years just to be conservative shouldn't be a big deal.
remember, you are saving money not having to call an engine builder
BTW, took apart a Coolingmist 50/50 mix AI motor a couple of days ago. the rotors looked almost like they hadn't been run.
don't underestimate the cleaning power of water or meth and the important contribution they make to longevity.
howard
the EV 14 is all stainless steel w the exception of the spring. being Bosch i can assure you it is the highest quality SS. i would not hesitate to use it and would look at it from time to time. the injector is not expensive and changing it out every couple of years just to be conservative shouldn't be a big deal.
remember, you are saving money not having to call an engine builder
BTW, took apart a Coolingmist 50/50 mix AI motor a couple of days ago. the rotors looked almost like they hadn't been run.
don't underestimate the cleaning power of water or meth and the important contribution they make to longevity.
howard
09-04-11, 09:12 AM
#33
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
a good day for me is when i learn something
as you may be aware, i am in the middle of re-tooling my AI system since my irreplaceable FJO system decided to check out.
it should be a win for me and for Power FC owners as it uses the Power FC to drive an additional pair of new generation Bosch EV14 injectors in the elbow to spray methanol. (you could use water or a mix too).
i premise many of my calculations on an empirically derived relationship between rotary rwhp and airflow. if you know the airflow and AFR you can calculate fuel and lots of other interesting numbers.
it appears i have omitted a key additional deduct going from gross fuel to net fuel:
that factor is injector Lag, often also referred to as Deadtime.
i have read about it many times and we all input lag numbers when we set up our Power FC Settings 5 page.
i guess the lightbulb never quite turned on for me until it was brought to my attention by a board member and after i did some calculations...
i referred back to a previous run for numbers. here's how it played out...
507 rw hp SAE
12.0 AFR
75.1 injector duty
20 PSI
injectors:
primary 888 (RC flowed)
secondary 1650 (RC flowed)
secondaries run by an FJO Peak and Hold converter
Supra pump run by Kenne Bell Boost A Pump at 20% Volt gain
AI
Net delivery of 1128 CC/Minute of 100% methanol at 20 psi
let's now try to quantify the amount of fuel loss from LAG/Deadtime
507 rw rotary hp X 1.92 = 973 CFM/14.471 = 67.24 pounds of air per minute
at 12.0 AFR.... 67.24/12 = 5.603 pounds of gasoline per minute
5.603/6.35 (weight per gallon gas) = .882 gallons per minute
.882 X 116,090 (BTUs in a gallon of gas) = 102,448 BTUs to make 507
BTUs from AI system
two M10 nozzles. Gross deliverability 1262 CC/Min. at 20 PSI boost X .89 (reduction due to manifold pressure) = 1128 CC/Minute Net
1128 CC/Min = .298 Gallons per minute X 57,250 (BTUs in a gallon of methanol) = 17,060 BTUs from AI
102,448 (BTUs to make 507 hp) - 17,060 BTUs from meth = 83,388 BTUs needed from gas to make 507.
BTUs from gasoline
According to my Gross Deliverability (5060) times my duty cycle (.751) i was nominally at (3800 CC) /116,438 BTUs.
116,438 - 85,388 = 31,050 the slippage from Lag/Deadtime
31,050/116,438 = 26.6% deduct
i will be off the board in the wilds of Wyoming this next week while Beyond Redline fixtures my elbow. i should have it the following Monday and hope to be on the dyno that week.
it will be very interesting to acquire some additional data as to Lag/Deadtime.
Lag/DT will vary w re to RPM, ontime, battery voltage, type of injector, fuel viscosity/temperature but from my calculations it may be a really important factor to crank into fuel system requirements as far as getting to NET Fuel Delivery.
injectors generally come w Lag settings to compensate so proper fuel is delivered throughout the range... so the settings portion is handled.
my concern is that when figuring fuel requirements perhaps another 20-25% needs to be added so as not to run short. if that number is in the ballpark it is an eyeopener.
comments welcome.
as you may be aware, i am in the middle of re-tooling my AI system since my irreplaceable FJO system decided to check out.
it should be a win for me and for Power FC owners as it uses the Power FC to drive an additional pair of new generation Bosch EV14 injectors in the elbow to spray methanol. (you could use water or a mix too).
i premise many of my calculations on an empirically derived relationship between rotary rwhp and airflow. if you know the airflow and AFR you can calculate fuel and lots of other interesting numbers.
it appears i have omitted a key additional deduct going from gross fuel to net fuel:
that factor is injector Lag, often also referred to as Deadtime.
i have read about it many times and we all input lag numbers when we set up our Power FC Settings 5 page.
i guess the lightbulb never quite turned on for me until it was brought to my attention by a board member and after i did some calculations...
i referred back to a previous run for numbers. here's how it played out...
507 rw hp SAE
12.0 AFR
75.1 injector duty
20 PSI
injectors:
primary 888 (RC flowed)
secondary 1650 (RC flowed)
secondaries run by an FJO Peak and Hold converter
Supra pump run by Kenne Bell Boost A Pump at 20% Volt gain
AI
Net delivery of 1128 CC/Minute of 100% methanol at 20 psi
let's now try to quantify the amount of fuel loss from LAG/Deadtime
507 rw rotary hp X 1.92 = 973 CFM/14.471 = 67.24 pounds of air per minute
at 12.0 AFR.... 67.24/12 = 5.603 pounds of gasoline per minute
5.603/6.35 (weight per gallon gas) = .882 gallons per minute
.882 X 116,090 (BTUs in a gallon of gas) = 102,448 BTUs to make 507
BTUs from AI system
two M10 nozzles. Gross deliverability 1262 CC/Min. at 20 PSI boost X .89 (reduction due to manifold pressure) = 1128 CC/Minute Net
1128 CC/Min = .298 Gallons per minute X 57,250 (BTUs in a gallon of methanol) = 17,060 BTUs from AI
102,448 (BTUs to make 507 hp) - 17,060 BTUs from meth = 83,388 BTUs needed from gas to make 507.
BTUs from gasoline
According to my Gross Deliverability (5060) times my duty cycle (.751) i was nominally at (3800 CC) /116,438 BTUs.
116,438 - 85,388 = 31,050 the slippage from Lag/Deadtime
31,050/116,438 = 26.6% deduct
i will be off the board in the wilds of Wyoming this next week while Beyond Redline fixtures my elbow. i should have it the following Monday and hope to be on the dyno that week.
it will be very interesting to acquire some additional data as to Lag/Deadtime.
Lag/DT will vary w re to RPM, ontime, battery voltage, type of injector, fuel viscosity/temperature but from my calculations it may be a really important factor to crank into fuel system requirements as far as getting to NET Fuel Delivery.
injectors generally come w Lag settings to compensate so proper fuel is delivered throughout the range... so the settings portion is handled.
my concern is that when figuring fuel requirements perhaps another 20-25% needs to be added so as not to run short. if that number is in the ballpark it is an eyeopener.
comments welcome.
09-14-11, 09:03 PM
#35
09-23-11, 06:16 AM
#36
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Hi Howard, I was just wondering how you were getting on with this? I've been following this thread and several of your other threads quite closely. I also had a couple other questions, might have missed it elsewhere but what kind of tank are you using for the meth? I'm assuming with the quantities that you are running that you may have had to fabricate one rather than use say the washer tank? The cleaning benefit of water/meth injection has been well documented throughout your threads, but would you say that an engine that already has some carbon build up would experience a removal of that carbon, or simply that no further build ups? I ask because I use my FD as a daily as well as occasional track car, but live in the suburbs of a city and as such there is a fair amount of low speed driving which I hate because of what its doing to my car! My motor is less than 8k old following a rebuild. I do try and redline her as often as possible though, much to the annoyance of many suburban Greater Londoners!
09-25-11, 08:30 AM
#37
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
happy to update
i did expect to be running last monday but upon startup it was clear that the motor was only running on the rear rotor.
(front EGT 110 degrees F, rear 550)
white clouds out the tailpipe.
i figured it to be a primary injector and eventually swapped them between the rotors. since the front rotor continued to not run i eliminated the primaries after checking wiring. (which was a completely unbuthered new harness)...
i then checked ignition and found all four plugs were firing.
i did a compression check and a coolant pressure check and found both to be perfect.
the next item on the list will be to check my new EV14 secondary injectors. it could be the front injector is stuck open..
i did take the last couple of days off to build a customer motor but will revisit my car either today or tomorrow.
as to fuel cell... check out my sticky post for pics and specs. i am very happy w it. i will encase it before doing the Texas Mile.
you are correct to be concerned re carbon buildup. you should not be running the external oil pump if it is sourcing crankcase oil and of course you should be premixing 2 cyc oil.
both water and meth will clean a carboned up motor.
good luck,
howard
i did expect to be running last monday but upon startup it was clear that the motor was only running on the rear rotor.
(front EGT 110 degrees F, rear 550)
white clouds out the tailpipe.
i figured it to be a primary injector and eventually swapped them between the rotors. since the front rotor continued to not run i eliminated the primaries after checking wiring. (which was a completely unbuthered new harness)...
i then checked ignition and found all four plugs were firing.
i did a compression check and a coolant pressure check and found both to be perfect.
the next item on the list will be to check my new EV14 secondary injectors. it could be the front injector is stuck open..
i did take the last couple of days off to build a customer motor but will revisit my car either today or tomorrow.
as to fuel cell... check out my sticky post for pics and specs. i am very happy w it. i will encase it before doing the Texas Mile.
you are correct to be concerned re carbon buildup. you should not be running the external oil pump if it is sourcing crankcase oil and of course you should be premixing 2 cyc oil.
both water and meth will clean a carboned up motor.
good luck,
howard
10-09-11, 01:56 PM
#39
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
the problem turned out to be my Power FC. (new July)
the relay triggering my meth pump was replaced by the shop and it did not contain a Volt Spike suppressing diode or resistor. as a result i have lost 2 Power FCs, a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump, Datalogit and the FJO meth AI module.
the (two) Power FCs have inoperative front primary injector drivers and are being repaired by Apexi. a friend is loaning me another Power FC.
i am replacing the relay and will add a protective MOV before all my solid state items.
do not ever install a relay in your FD unless you are sure it has Volt Spike protection.
howard
the relay triggering my meth pump was replaced by the shop and it did not contain a Volt Spike suppressing diode or resistor. as a result i have lost 2 Power FCs, a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump, Datalogit and the FJO meth AI module.
the (two) Power FCs have inoperative front primary injector drivers and are being repaired by Apexi. a friend is loaning me another Power FC.
i am replacing the relay and will add a protective MOV before all my solid state items.
do not ever install a relay in your FD unless you are sure it has Volt Spike protection.
howard
10-09-11, 03:15 PM
#40
i'm a little curious why you don't just run solely on E85, it simplifies alot of the additional failure points and nets the same(well better) end result. you just need a more stout primary fuel system.
of course then it wouldn't be in the AI section.
i dunno, it just gives full resolution and control over an alcohol based system without the clutter.
of course then it wouldn't be in the AI section.
i dunno, it just gives full resolution and control over an alcohol based system without the clutter.
10-10-11, 04:41 PM
#41
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Howard,
I have some doubts regarding spikes from a relay could knock those systems out. Almost all switching systems have its own spike suppression circuitry inbuilt. It is unlikely those parts were badly designed - spike suppressing and device protection are well taught to all elecronics engineers during their training.
For example, multiple spikes from as fuel injector is far more frequent than a single short relay coil expecially those FJO solenoid switches very large current spike during the peak strike/release period.
Unfortunately I don't have an alternative explanation why those part failed.
I too am curious as to why not E85?
I have some doubts regarding spikes from a relay could knock those systems out. Almost all switching systems have its own spike suppression circuitry inbuilt. It is unlikely those parts were badly designed - spike suppressing and device protection are well taught to all elecronics engineers during their training.
For example, multiple spikes from as fuel injector is far more frequent than a single short relay coil expecially those FJO solenoid switches very large current spike during the peak strike/release period.
Unfortunately I don't have an alternative explanation why those part failed.
I too am curious as to why not E85?
10-12-11, 07:44 AM
#42
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
"why you don't just run solely on E85"
all of your points are valid re E85. my problem is there are not enough E85 outlets in and around Wisconsin. meth is easily bought/stored and it is only used when the secondaries come into play.
Hi Richard,
nice to hear from you.
"Almost all switching systems have its own spike suppression circuitry inbuilt"
you are generally correct re spike supression.
the pump relay that came w my FJO setup did have a Diode and for a number of years i had zero electronic failures. at some point the shop where i tune replaced it w a relay with no spike supression.... no diode, no resistor. that does coincide w the succession of electronic module failures.
2 Power FCs
one Datalogit
one FJO AI module
one Kenne Bell Boost A Pump
i tested my original relay and found it to be operative however i am not going to gamble and should receive today a new Beck Arnley relay with a Diode.
i also plan to add a MOV (metal oxide varistor) in front of all my modules for added protection. V24ZA50P.
given the significant number of failures it is probable that i do have a V spike issue. there could be a few other culprits in addition to the relay...
i have been dynoing w a battery charger hooked up at 10A. it is possible to induce a V spike from a charger.
there is a (slim) possibility that i have a constant continuity problem in my primary circuit. this could come from the alternator or any slightly loose connection. i did change to a higher output alternator prior to my problems.
for me, the relay is the prime suspect.
howard
all of your points are valid re E85. my problem is there are not enough E85 outlets in and around Wisconsin. meth is easily bought/stored and it is only used when the secondaries come into play.
Hi Richard,
nice to hear from you.
"Almost all switching systems have its own spike suppression circuitry inbuilt"
you are generally correct re spike supression.
the pump relay that came w my FJO setup did have a Diode and for a number of years i had zero electronic failures. at some point the shop where i tune replaced it w a relay with no spike supression.... no diode, no resistor. that does coincide w the succession of electronic module failures.
2 Power FCs
one Datalogit
one FJO AI module
one Kenne Bell Boost A Pump
i tested my original relay and found it to be operative however i am not going to gamble and should receive today a new Beck Arnley relay with a Diode.
i also plan to add a MOV (metal oxide varistor) in front of all my modules for added protection. V24ZA50P.
given the significant number of failures it is probable that i do have a V spike issue. there could be a few other culprits in addition to the relay...
i have been dynoing w a battery charger hooked up at 10A. it is possible to induce a V spike from a charger.
there is a (slim) possibility that i have a constant continuity problem in my primary circuit. this could come from the alternator or any slightly loose connection. i did change to a higher output alternator prior to my problems.
for me, the relay is the prime suspect.
howard
10-17-11, 09:21 AM
#43
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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iTrader: (6)
update:
i have both Power FCs at Apexi for fixes and a friend is sending me his Power FC so we can move forward. a new relay is in place and i should receive the varistors today.
meanwhile i did some additional research on my meth pump (Bosch 044 variant) and have decided to look elsewhere as it falls on it's face around 80 psi.
i will be going back to a gussied up Shurflo probably. the 1.8 GPM open flow pump will run two Bosch EV14 1000 cc/min injectors. it will be set at 86 PSI static and will need to work to 116 psi (30 psi boost).
the EV14 injectors will work fine to 8 Bar (116 psi) and will deliver approx 2800 CC/Min of meth.
here are a few pics/comments:
you can see 3 items in the pic... one of the two fuel injectors that will deliver the meth. (the other is underneath at 6 o'clock)
my adj Honeywell boost switch on the firewall. it is set to trigger the meth pump at 1.5 psi boost and is tapped in to the UIM.
a stainless steel 3/16 brakeline that connects the adj meth pressure regulator and MAP from the UIM. the regulator is in the rear of the car by the pump and tank.
while this might look like a mish mash it does show an important component in the center of the picture... a meth pressure logger/sensor that is hooked into my Datalogit. i consider logging fuel pressure and meth pressure essential.
my Weldon meth friendly adj pressure regulator. located near/above the driver's side half shaft. it features a return line to the meth fuel cell and is plumbed in to the engine's MAP.
howard
i have both Power FCs at Apexi for fixes and a friend is sending me his Power FC so we can move forward. a new relay is in place and i should receive the varistors today.
meanwhile i did some additional research on my meth pump (Bosch 044 variant) and have decided to look elsewhere as it falls on it's face around 80 psi.
i will be going back to a gussied up Shurflo probably. the 1.8 GPM open flow pump will run two Bosch EV14 1000 cc/min injectors. it will be set at 86 PSI static and will need to work to 116 psi (30 psi boost).
the EV14 injectors will work fine to 8 Bar (116 psi) and will deliver approx 2800 CC/Min of meth.
here are a few pics/comments:
you can see 3 items in the pic... one of the two fuel injectors that will deliver the meth. (the other is underneath at 6 o'clock)
my adj Honeywell boost switch on the firewall. it is set to trigger the meth pump at 1.5 psi boost and is tapped in to the UIM.
a stainless steel 3/16 brakeline that connects the adj meth pressure regulator and MAP from the UIM. the regulator is in the rear of the car by the pump and tank.
while this might look like a mish mash it does show an important component in the center of the picture... a meth pressure logger/sensor that is hooked into my Datalogit. i consider logging fuel pressure and meth pressure essential.
my Weldon meth friendly adj pressure regulator. located near/above the driver's side half shaft. it features a return line to the meth fuel cell and is plumbed in to the engine's MAP.
howard
02-09-12, 06:53 PM
#44
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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iTrader: (6)
just a brief update. the system runs very well and is easy to tune. i made 514 SAE rwhp at 24 psi and the motor was way rich. once properly/fully tuned i see a happy motor at 550 and 26 psi w the Borg Warner S300 63.
hc
hc
02-09-12, 07:51 PM
#45
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