Auxiliary Injection The place to discuss topics of water injection, alky/meth injection, mixing water/alky and all of the various systems and tuning methods for it. Aux Injection is a great way to have a reliable high power rotary.

my third AI system

Old 08-10-11, 09:08 PM
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my third AI system

after doing lots of research i decided i wanted to help out my pump gas w as much methanol as possible.

looking over the available options in 2003 i decided to go w Julio Don's Alkycontrol system. Julio had zillions of high value threads/posts on the most important AI forum on the net... TurboBuick. the Alcohol Propane and Nitrous section had over 200 PAGES of threads back in 04.

i was not disappointed. i ran two M15 nozzles, around 1300 CCs/Min and made 507 SAE rwhp at 20 psi w the Alkycontrol system.

BUT

it is a pump/nozzle deal and as such is fine for dyno and drag racing and is not able to bob and weave during transient throttle situations, like in a corner at Road Atlanta.

i discovered FJO in 2009 and they had what i needed. fuel injectors running on an X Y grid w RPM and Load.

i call it HD AI.

and it is awesome. i ran it in 09 and 10. you just dialed in the exact amount of alcohol you wanted in 156 cells!

i did have to mod it a bunch to run 100% meth. i had to install a return line and pressure regulator. once i did that and switched to a Bosch 044 type pump all was super.

until this year.

the FJO module failed. not a surprise as everything else has failed since last Nov.

Kenne Bell Boost A Pump
Datalogit
Power FC

and now the FJO AI unit.

while the other items have all been replaced w new the FJO unit is no longer available.

which brings me to this post.

the executive summary:

since i have the pump, tank (4.5 gal), return line, adj Weldon pressure reg i am going to use what i have and

add two additional injectors to my elbow and drive them thru the Power FC. these 2 injectors will flow methanol.

i am now back to having AI being able to be precisely delivered... in 400 cells.

here are the details:

my objective is 600 rwhp SAE maximum.
max fuel delivery must be at no more than 85% duty cycle
i want enough spare fuel to run to 10.0 to one AFR (not that i plan to, i just want reserve deliverability.)


here's the numbers for those interested...

600 rw rotary hp

600 X 1.92 = 1152 CFM
1152/ 14.471 = 79.6 call it 80 pounds of air per minute
11.3 target AFR means it takes 80/11.3 = 7.08 pounds of gasoline
7.08/ 6.35 = 1.115 gallons gas per minute
1.115 X 116,090 (BTUs in a gallon of gas) = 129,429 BTUs to make 600 rw rotary hp.

primaries 2 X 850 = 1700 X .85 (duty cycle limit) = 1445 CC/Min

1445 = .3817 GPM X 116,090 = 44,311 BTUs from primaries

129,429 - 44311 = 85,118 (BTUs needed from secondaries)

i want 2000 CC/Min of Methanol (from experience this works really well w pump gas at 500 hp, knock under 10)

2000 = .5283 gal
.5283 X 57,250 (BTU in a gallon of meth) = 30,245

85,118 BTUs - 30,245 = 54,872 BTUs needed from two gas secondaries

54,872/ 116,090 = .4726 g of gas

.4726 = 1789 CC/Min


from the above it is clear:

i will run two Bosch EV14 1000 CC/Min conical spray pattern injectors in my secondary ports and two Bosch EV14 1000 CC/Min short body conical spray pattern in my elbow.

the Power FC is fully capable of driving each of the 6 injectors and we will simply tune as if no AI system is present.

i can vary the output if i wish of the meth injectors as my pump can raise the pressure significantly.

this appears to be a simple way to end up w an HD AI system.

i will report back when up and running. the injectors are on the way.

howard
Old 08-10-11, 09:28 PM
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subscribed. I was thinking about doing something similar with a PS 1000 not even a month ago. Great minds do think alike.
Old 08-10-11, 10:24 PM
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are you going to mirror the primaries or the secondaries with the AI injectors?
Old 08-11-11, 09:54 AM
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Very interested in seeing how you develop this setup with a Power FC before dropping cash on a full AI system.
Old 08-11-11, 11:18 AM
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Ahhhh innovation. I'm rootin for you.
Old 08-11-11, 11:41 AM
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"are you going to mirror the primaries or the secondaries with the AI injectors?"

since all 4 secondary injectors are the same... and the Power FC can drive 4 secondaries in addition to the primaries...

we will just plug in the appropriate lag and delivery from the secondaries and tune as if we had 4 injectors, it is just that a bit more than half of the 4 secondaries will be feeding the motor meth.

i say more than half as we will be running the secondaries at higher static pressure.
Old 08-11-11, 12:06 PM
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Awesome development... I would very much like to do this
Old 08-11-11, 03:13 PM
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FWIW, just make sure there is no water in the methanol, otherwise the injectors will rust . . .

:-) neil
Old 08-13-11, 03:55 PM
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the hardware arrived today. i am impressed w how small everything is. small is good. here's a comparo. an old style Bosch 1600 injector and the newer EV14 in the 1000 delivery size.

the other 2 smaller new style are also 1000 cc but are "short" /33 mm between O rings. they ought to fit very nicely on my elbow.





i swapped in the secondaries a few minutes ago and hope to go for a drive tomorrow. i will run the car up to Beyond Redline next week to have the meth injectors fixtured.
Old 08-14-11, 01:48 AM
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First off sorry if my questions seem a bit uninformed. My current knowledge of a lot things is limited at this point.


Hc I'm curious as to why you went this rout? Are there no other systems out that have the kind of control your looking for or is it that this setup will work well for your needs?

From my current understanding you'll be gaining control through the load range (400cells vs 156) but loosing some control over the initiation point?

I ask because while my endeavors with a rex are still probably a few years out I have some ideas of what I want to do. One of them being AI with 100% meth(shooting water into a motor just doesn't sit right with me) and like you I would like more control over it than what is basically like turning on a garden hose.

Also one question that's a bit off topic. From some of your past threads I understand your running a healthy amount of meth(replacing 20-30% of your fule with meth). Are those levels needed to hit your goals or are you just of the mind set that the more meth the better?

Thanks for any info.
Old 08-14-11, 08:39 AM
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some excellent questions RD.

"...why you went this rout? Are there no other systems out that have the kind of control your looking for or is it that this setup will work well for your needs?"


your "garden hose" description of pumpspeed/nozzle AI is correct and is the initial reason i jumped on the FJO setup as it is entirely different.

as most know, fuel injection/computers revolutionized our auto engine performance.

fuel delivered everywhere on the map to the Ms.

neither a carb or a pump/nozzle can keep up w transient throttle.

fuel injectors run by computers can do it perfectly without breaking a sweat. and the FJO AI system works like the computer driven fuel injector.

and it did work, providing 156 cells where you simply dial in whatever % of max delivery you wish. just like our Power FCs or the OE computer.

it did work until it didn't.

after 5 years of no problems i have been plagued w the loss of my Kenne Bell Boost A Pump, Datalogit, Power FC and now my irreplaceable FJO AI setup.

since FJO sold out to Holley and Holley in their infinite wisdon is un-interested in continuing what is hands down the best AI system available it became time to innovate. (there are no other similar systems available)


"loosing some control over the initiation point?"

my secondaries enter the picture as i cross into boost. that is where i also chose to start my FJO so the initiation point is not an issue.


"running a healthy amount of meth (replacing 20-30% of your fuel with meth). Are those levels needed to hit your goals or are you just of the mind set that the more meth the better?"


all i can tell you is that at 500 hp w 1400 CC of meth knock dropped to under 10. this suggests one happy motor at 500 hp on 93 octane.

in addition not only is the motor happy inside as to combustion but take a close look at the (uncleaned) rotor that came out of the motor after 4 years of duty!



4 years--- no carbon. building rotaries i see boatloads of motors and upon disassembly i am still shocked at how much carbon accumulates. thick coating on the rotor faces and lots in the apex and sideseal grooves. take another look at my 4 year old rotor.

much of this has to do w meth.

finally, meth just has superior qualities to gasoline, and this includes racegas.


a 400+ degree higher autoignition temp
stratospheric octane (all numbers are guesses because octane is measured at standard temp and you can't get the charge air down to std temp as the meth cools it so much)

huge cooling gas has 900 BTUs of cooling per gallon, meth has 3340.

so yes, i want to run lots of it.

howard
Old 08-14-11, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Howard Coleman CPR

What is that on the right?
Would this system work only with pure meth? Or would a 50/50 meth/water mix be viable also
Are you planning to write a DIY after finishing the project? Curious about your pump/fail-safe too
Old 08-14-11, 12:29 PM
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item on the right is an FJO purpose built water/meth solenoid-injector. it is a 700 cc item. i ran 2 700s for four years and last fall swapped in 2 1000 cc.

the FJO works w water or meth or a combo

yes, i will put something together.

no pump fail safe. i run a Bosch 044 variant. (it is external to the tank) i plan to use my Kenne Bell boost switch... i will just Tee into it. it generates a signal to the BAP to raise V to the gasoline fuel pump. i will use the same signal to trigger my Bosch meth pump relay.
Old 08-14-11, 10:43 PM
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Fallowing another HC thread.

Very interested as I am looking to get AI on my build. Seeing the PFC controlling the AI injector(s) seems to be a clean set up.

My goal is 400 rwhp then step up to 500 rwhp on California 91 pump gas.
Old 08-15-11, 12:09 PM
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hey Howard, is Holley now offering the previously FJO WI system?

http://www.holley.com/HolleyEFICatal...?pageNumber=18

looks similar
Old 08-15-11, 04:48 PM
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aren't these injectors offered in a size that fits the stock secondary rail? i though i read that somewhere. that's be a sweet setup, then keep the stock fpr and have a really simple setup. not good for 500 hp but 400 would be fine seems to be accepted
Old 08-16-11, 10:07 AM
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"is Holley now offering the previously FJO WI system?"

such a travesty. FJO designs a lights out system and doesn't market it. (not knocking FJO, they design stuff and then others rebadge it... so they elect not to retail)

so they then sell out the ECU (yes they make a stand alone engine mgt system) and various other items to Holley and Holley, in their infinite wisdom decides to not sell it as a stand alone AI unit, rather incorportes it into the FJO ECU.

i called them a month ago and told them they were sitting on the best AI system in the world, just knock out the module.... no. no interest?

oh well.

(yes you can buy the solenoids and pump but without the module they are useless.)


"aren't these injectors offered in a size that fits the stock secondary rail?"

not sure i understand your question.

i chose to deal w Fuelinjectionconnection.com. John, who may be the owner knows FDs backwards and forwards and was way ahead of me.

he sent me two of the new tech Bosch EV14 injectors that were fixtured so they dropped in my secondary rail and 2 EV14 injectors that were short body. my thinking w the shorter injectors was that space around my elbow is limited so go w the smaller size. (tiny--- only 33 mm between O rings!)

all 4 injectors deliver 1000 CC at 43.5 pressure. the shorties are run off a separate pump and of course deliver nothing but methanol. i probably will run them at around 60 psi static to juice up the volume a bit.

my Boost A Pump has a Pressure/Boost switch. it completes a circuit to my BAP as soon as it reads boost. i (today) will Tee into it and use it to start my alcohol pump.

in addition, yesterday, i converted my meth system pressure sensor so it will feed into my Datalogit. i will be able to log my meth pressure to verify it is turning on the meth pump and also verify system pressure.

my meth adj regulator is back near my tank and pump. i will use a length of brakeline to feed MAP back to the pressure regulator so i have consistant net pressure to the regulator just like our gasoline systems Tee into the manifold.
Old 08-16-11, 03:34 PM
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i was saying that these injectors would be a simple solution instead of changing the secondary rail, fpr, lines, and injectors. when just the injectors could just be changed...
Old 08-16-11, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by silverTRD
i was saying that these injectors would be a simple solution instead of changing the secondary rail, fpr, lines, and injectors. when just the injectors could just be changed...
Ah, you mean for general use (unrelated to AI)?
Would be great if it's the case
Old 08-17-11, 01:39 AM
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well in this application as well, the 2 additional 1000cc's could be added to the elbow like howards setup. its what im thinking about doing now since fjo is no longer available. i like that i can tune as if it(ai)weren't even there.
Old 08-17-11, 08:31 AM
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"i can tune as if it(ai)weren't even there."

yes
Old 08-19-11, 09:37 AM
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"these injectors would be a simple solution instead of changing the secondary rail, fpr, lines, and injectors. when just the injectors could just be changed... "

o k, i finally get what you are saying. i couldn't figure it out because it was too simple

what a great idea. i suggest you check w John on it. i guess we would be looking for the new style EV14 w dimensions similar to out secondaries at a higher output.

i have been thinking of changing out my primaries (850s) to the EV14s.

Power FC owners are confronted w a dilemma. rich idle from bigger primaries and an inability of the PFC to decrease ontime past a cetain point and a need to put more fuel thru the motor.

of course now w the 2200 secondaries you could skinny the primaries and end up w a better (leaner) idle but...

there may be something to be said for delivering more fuel thru the primary port. the primary on the stock FD is smaller than miniscule. given a stock port the smaller primary makes sense. i do a significant amount of work on the primary port, opening it up, and i want lots of fuel delivery going thru it for enhanced atomisation.

on another matter on my meth (AI) pump trigger i decided to go w another Hobbs switch rather than to Tee into the BAP switch...
Old 08-19-11, 04:31 PM
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after a bit of unsuccessful searching in the Power FC section for Four Secondary Injectors i checked w Luke and w RotaryPerformance to find both suggested i take the strain off the PFC drivers by re-installing my FJO Peak and Hold Injector Driver.

both said that the ECU might work w 4 but the additional heat could shorten life. given my recent experience w blown up elecs i elect to play it safer.

any experience out there w the Power FC and 4 secondaries?

also, talking w John at Fuelinjectionconnection... he has a wide array of EV14s for the primaries but they require a new rail as they are top feed only.
Old 08-22-11, 01:12 PM
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I find it fascinating that I stumbled on this thread this morning, and was just thinking about something similar to this over the weekend.
I about about to put a bridgeported engine in my FC, and am definitely going to use alcohol injection. I will be using occasionally for drag racing andn will be driving it on the street, but my main goal with this car is as a track car for NASA HPDE/time trials. I had been seriously looking at the alkycontrol system since I have seen it on BDC's car and was impressed with it. The thing I was worried about, though, was transient throttle conditions seen around a race track. I was searching over the weekend and found your thread about the FJO system you installed a few years back and it showed that my fears were well founded.
The FJO system seemed impressive and just what I was looking for, but I though "I wonder if I can just use my Haltech?" I currently have a E6X. I have looked into it, and each of the channels can drive 2 different 4 ohm 1A in parallel. This would allow the addition of the 2 methanol injectors. There's obviously some things to work out, but the fact that you are pursuing something similar gives me hope that my idea isn't totally out in left field. I'm going to look into a few things and will probably back with some more thoughts/questions (assuming its ok with you for it to be in this thread) and will most certainly be following your progress in this thread.
Old 08-22-11, 09:56 PM
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After more research, it appears that 100% meth is illegal in all forms in NASA time trials. I have a question in about e85. If that is legal, which it really should be, then I am going to start persuing a setup like what you have planned up, but instead using e85. I realize its not as good as methanol, but NASA is one of the main reasons I am building this car, so methanol is out. If e85 were more available I would totally convert it to run only e85, but oh well. I want something that I don't have to modify depending on where I am running it; I just want to tune it and be done, other than maybe adjusting the boost when on the street.

One question, though - how are your injectors going to be wired? I'm not familiar enough with the Power FC, but are you just running the meth injectors in parallel with your secondaries? Is there a single control signal for the secondaries, or is there a signal for each injector? If that is the case, which injector signal would you tie into for the meth injectors? Will there be an issue with them being further upstream, or is there a provision for adjusting that somehow?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just really interested in this and trying to figure out what you are doing since you obviously have way more experience at this than me!

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