hondahater

iTrader: (2)

Sorry guys but I've got several questions that seem to never get answered so here I am starting a new thread.


1. What is needed to adapt our existing AI kits to make it atomize enough to go pre turbo? I've heard aquamist injectors are good enough for this but i've also heard you need special air/water atomizers for this.

2. Does an lt8 need anything special (ie. stock or aftermarket ignitor) to work with cdi boxes and aftermarket coils?

3. I've asked coolingmist about what size nozzle I need for around 500hp and he said a 16gph nozzle however when I do the devils own alky injector nozzle calc it says a 7gph will be fine if I type in a 2.6L and if I type in a 1.3 it's half that much.

Thanks for listening and any help you can give.

RICE RACING

1. Richard made me a special centre distribution CNC jet holder for my single turbo customers running pre comp injection using his kits... From what I can tell his jet is NOT as good as a special air/water atomizing unit, If its injected further up stream like in an air box they may be ok???? Some shots of his forum form skyline that was doing testing showed some wear on comp blades when injecting to near wheel with not enough time to allow smaller drop sizes. Anyway send him a PM or e-mail for exact clarification on it RE his jets.

2. The Mictrotech will fire a Crane Hi6 no problem, I have a few cars running this set up, the coil triggers are used as input to each leading CDI box then the output is sent to the HEC715 Bosch coils, works fine....... if you get your kit on special they sometimes come packaged with LX92 CDI coils so you can swap out the two Bosch ones, either work fine.

3. dunno

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

thanks for the info. Was getting conflicting data on if the trigger on the microtech was enough or if I needed a stock or aftermarket ignitor. what injector size do you usually use for a 450-500hp car? I'll email richard to see what he says about his injectors. You wouldn't happen to know where to get the special atomizer huh? Thanks.

RICE RACING

4 X 1000cc Siemens is more than fine (with upped fuel pressure) BUT I have run Microtech with 4 X 1700cc Bosch Injectors without issue in one RX3 I used to own. That will let you run 2.0bar on pump gas with WI no problems.

Air/water atomizers I sell, I calibrate them to suit your HP target and they are low pressure items (calibrated flow rates) for boost pressure delivery pressuirzed systems only (not run with high pressure electric pumps)........ these are pre turbo systems.

The Microtech trigger that fires the coil is more than ample to trigger the Crane Hi6

coolingmist

for # 3, we manufactured your kit so you should take our advice. Our controller has a 10 position spray switch. This changes the max pressure of the nozzle. While our 16 GPH nozzle may max at 16 GPH, you can change the flow as low as 8 GPH with our controller. There is no "one size fits all". In otherwords, with our controller you can put the 16 GPH nozzle and if you need 8 or 9 or 9.2 or 14 GPH our controller will make it work.

Dont forget one of our project cars is an Rx-7 and I would argue we have the most methanol experience with Rx-7s and for sure we know our product, as we have our own rx- 7 project car and developed our kit on it.

David

dubulup

so where is all this data on methanol and the 13B??


(I just can't get over all this "we, we, we"...bullshit, cracks me up )

coolingmist

What do you want me to say "ME"? My company has employees. If you want to visit our employees please come to our shop and I will introduce you to them. John is our store manager, Rob is our electronics design person, Nat is our graphics artist, Jeff is our software person, etc.

So I dont know what you want me to say. My response in this thread is to Hondahater to help him with his question, not to argue with you.

David

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

hondahater,

i suggest your read the thread entitled "AI Delivery Sizing."

a quick summary:

water... 400-500 cc/min
50-50 500-600 cc/min
alcohol: depends what you want to accomplish. i am running 1200 cc/minute and could run less or more if i wished.

i suggest when we talk delivery stats we skip gph and talk cc/minute as we generally talk cc/minute re our fuel injectors.

1 gph = 63 cc/minute.... pretty simple conversion

BTW, since our motors are essentially 2 cycle the 1.3 displacement equates to a 2.6 piston motor.

finally, let's all attempt to focus on the acquisition of knowledge in this section and excercise civility.

we have 3 options w regard to AI and they all work. each has plusses and minuses. the ideal situation w re to this section is to have a spread of people using each and to report what they have learned.

IMO, there is one base truth about AI:

as long as you run one of the 3 options you will win. if you do not run AI you will be a loser. anyone that has run any of the three options knows this. properly tuned w any of the 3 options you can run 20+ psi boost w better knock than non-AI at one bar.

let's all take a deep breath and get back to business here. the business of fixturing the rotary so it can deliver it's awesome potential without having to run racegas. we all have valuable things to contribute. vendors are ALL welcome, especially when they add knowledge to the process.

howard coleman

ronbros3

YES,to what Howard said. its hard to believe after the last 7-10 yrs, of screwing around and blowing up Hi-boost rotarys, that it comes down to such a simple fix. Yonno it books like Maximum Boost and opinions about how AI systems are a crutch for poor design of a turbo system! I was reading thru McCannes turbo book printed in 78 and he did recommend WI-Meth systems. and they did not have the luxary of our modern electronics. Ron

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

Wow thanks guys! I think I've been getting too much into the "perfect" or the "perfect location of the nozzle" and have been forgeting the very simple fact that AI any way you do it is better than not doing it at all. Thanks howard for the slap in the face! I needed that. Now off to get a 16gph nozzle and I believe to combat the problem of water mainly hitting the rear runner I'm going to run a 90* bend like they recommend for that. Thanks again guys!



I'm sorry man I should have said nozzle size not injector size. For injectors I've got 2x890's and 2x1600's. Should be enough for what I'm lookin' for

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

hondahater,

i would double check re nozzle sizing... i believe your plan is to use water. a 16 gph nozzle flows 1008 cc/minute.

you are running nominal 850/1600 cc injectors (which BTW is why i suggested we talk in cc/minute) which works out to 4900 cc. i really doubt that if you use water you'd ever want 20% water injected into the motor... the general range is 300-400 cc/min.

the caveat here is i run alcohol and have never run water so i am not speaking from experience. big nozzles have a more difficult challenge atomizing so you don't want to go too big.

i invite the water guys to chime in here and perhaps Coolingmist would want to comment as i believe they mentioned up to 16 gph/1000 cc/min.

howard coleman

coolingmist

Let me clarify. I am not recommending to run 16 GPH, Im recommending that he run our 16 GPH nozzle, and adjust the controller the right location. If he had an on/off system I would recommend a smaller nozzle. As mentioned, our controller has the ability to lower the nozzle size through the hardware through the tune selection. The 16 GPH gives him the ability to lower the rate as low as 8 GPH with our controller. If the situation happens where he needs more flow down the road, he can simply turn the dial up or use the software.

I am not saying that he has to use a 16 GPH nozzle, it just gives alot of room for growth.

Honda hater, when you decide what size you need at max, just make sure its not too small and you will be fine with the controller.

David

hondahater

iTrader: (2)

cool thanks guys! I'm going to be running a 50/50 mix for now just to see how it goes and maybe later on just go straight water or meth. If nozzle sizing is anything like injector sizing then I would agree that it's much better to have more to play with later on if/when I deside to go t70. Hey david I'll be giving you guys a call today or tomorrow about the nozzle as well as one of those 90's and whatever else I need to locate that nozzle straight at the throttle plates. Thanks again guys!

dubulup

okay, so how about you all supply all this data on meth and 13B's since you all have the most experience with it.

coolingmist

If you need any more help you can call john at our store. Good luck.

D.

sdminus

What sort of pressure will he expect to see at low duty cycle ?

What should he do about the low delivery problems associated with this sort of flow control ?

if he runs a 16 gph jet he WILL HAVE to max it out no question.

Scott

coolingmist

Scott, the jet will atomize perfect on all settings. The jets atomize very well as low as 40 psi.

Im not attempting to argue with any of you. We designed this kit and know how it works. When we sell the kits they ship with at 16 and a 6. We have seen this time and time again.


Again, you can take any advice you want, as the manufacturer of the kit in question we gave ours.

David

sdminus

Do you manufacture the jets then ????????????

40 psi is complete tosh and so is the idea that a M16 jet will flow 8 gph with similar atomisation and regular flow.

Im not gonna argue with you either. I am simply telling you that the claims are false.


again what pressure will he see ?


Scott

dubulup

John Galloway?

coolingmist

scott,

How bout this, I dont care what pressure he is going to see. I will personally guarantee that the 16 GPH nozzle will work fine. I will be glad to refund his money if its too large.

Please dont put me on the stand I am just trying to help my customer.

David

coolingmist

Also, I dont recall saying use a M16, I said our 16 GPH nozzle. thats 16 @ 150

When you run the formula (16/SQRT(150/40)) you end up with 8.27 GPH. At the 150 it would be approx 16 GPH.

sdminus

But at less than full pump duty the pressure spikes and the flow varies so much that it can not be relyed upon. so the lower the rate the slower the pump turns and the slower the pump works and the slower the pulsation becomes and with this comes a fuel shortage if you tune with it.

so he will have to hit full pump duty at peak tq ( which is a tuning term )

Scott

coolingmist

Scott,

We have many customers that have run that nozzle with that HP range fine. I have no problem with your opinion.

Hondahater, let me make this more clear to you. You can purchase any size you injector from any company that you think is the right size. If Scott or Howard or BDC want to recommend a particular size, go for it. We have M5, M10 or the 16 GPH nozzles. Based on what we have sold we know the 16 will work fine with your HP range, however the choice is yours. Maybe scott can help you pick the right size.

David

RICE RACING

Using the word *atomized* when talking about water spray jets is technicaly not right

They dont realy atomize at all (as defined by measuring the size of the water/alcohol droplet produced).

I have a 10000 frame per second high speed camera @ work that I can use to measure the drop size, I say you will be lucky to get 200 micron size @ 100psi pump pressure? True air water atomizers that use air jets to pulverize the water spray see down to 20 micron size by comparison.

Anyway back to your discussion

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

thats a good point, is this "atomisation" something you can see good enough with the nekkid eye?