Going to make my own WI kit
02-11-09, 07:33 AM
#52
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Thanks guys.
The nylon hose that's connected to the turbo housing isn't holding up very good, it melted right at the nipple making a small hole thats bleeding off the boost to the tank, so I ordered some extra thick silicone hose to replace it. The other locations seem to be doing just fine so far.
Today at Lowes I saw some interesting poly hose. The connectors are actually the interesting part. They were little push and lock fittings, I tried to think of a way to integrate them into the system instead of the brass and rubber, but decided it would be too much hassle and little benefit, plus they wouldn't work very good at the filter location. I do really like them though and will keep them in mind for future projects or if I feel like changing anything with the design on my kit.
The nylon hose that's connected to the turbo housing isn't holding up very good, it melted right at the nipple making a small hole thats bleeding off the boost to the tank, so I ordered some extra thick silicone hose to replace it. The other locations seem to be doing just fine so far.
Today at Lowes I saw some interesting poly hose. The connectors are actually the interesting part. They were little push and lock fittings, I tried to think of a way to integrate them into the system instead of the brass and rubber, but decided it would be too much hassle and little benefit, plus they wouldn't work very good at the filter location. I do really like them though and will keep them in mind for future projects or if I feel like changing anything with the design on my kit.
Barry
02-11-09, 12:29 PM
#53
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I'm going to follow your lead and build my own custom setup like this.
I need to clarify my understanding, can you post a diagram of all the pieces and how they connect? I'm a little fuzzy on how the solenoid fits in the picture. I'd also really like to see a picture of where you tapped to get the boost from. Maybe if you are ever in Austin I could take a look?
can you get your pressure source from the hot or cold IC piping or even IC end tanks?
I need to clarify my understanding, can you post a diagram of all the pieces and how they connect? I'm a little fuzzy on how the solenoid fits in the picture. I'd also really like to see a picture of where you tapped to get the boost from. Maybe if you are ever in Austin I could take a look?
can you get your pressure source from the hot or cold IC piping or even IC end tanks?
02-11-09, 02:00 PM
#54
You can get your pressure source from anywhere, I chose closest to the turbo so that the pressure would be at it's highest point. = max water flow. I just drilled and tapped a hole right under my 90* elbow in my compressor housing. The piping would have worked too, but it's thinner so tapping wouldn't work too well, and I hate welding aluminum. I mounted the solenoid right before the connection at the air filter on the water side. I'm using a NOS fuel solenoid that I had lying around, but a cheap one would work too. The solenoid allows for a more on off effect otherwise there would still be a slight water flow after you get off boost, which may or may not matter, the other problem is the nozzle is mounted about the same height as the middle of the tank, so if the tank is filled more then halfway the water would drain out of the tank until it gets to the same level as the nozzle. I'll take some pics of it under the hood and describe where everything goes and what it does. If I'm ever in austin you're more then welcome to take a look.
Barry, I thought about moving the pressure source after the intercooler where my pressure switch is located, but I figured there would be a 1-2 psi drop after the intercooler and prefer to get the most out of the turbo's output. Although It might not make much difference in flow and the cooler air might be more beneficial for the whole setup. I may change things around, but we'll see how the silicone hose holds up. Those push and lock fittings are slick, I don't know if over time they would get baked and become brittle or not, but I sure like how they go together.
Barry, I thought about moving the pressure source after the intercooler where my pressure switch is located, but I figured there would be a 1-2 psi drop after the intercooler and prefer to get the most out of the turbo's output. Although It might not make much difference in flow and the cooler air might be more beneficial for the whole setup. I may change things around, but we'll see how the silicone hose holds up. Those push and lock fittings are slick, I don't know if over time they would get baked and become brittle or not, but I sure like how they go together.
02-11-09, 02:49 PM
#55
So far so good. I'm using 1/4" nylon hose from aircraftspruce though, my kit didn't have enough for my desired tank location.
I personally love the push loc's!
But its whatever works in your application, or what you prefer that is best for you!
02-11-09, 11:44 PM
#57
Took some pics tonight of the system installed. On the tank you can see a T with 2 barbs, one of the barbs is missing a hose, that hose is the one that runs to the nipple on the compressor housing. The left hose on the air filter connects to the bottom of the tank to supply water this is the line with the solenoid, and the right connection on the filter goes to the other part of the T for air to atomize the water.
CLICK FOR LARGER VIEW
CLICK FOR LARGER VIEW
02-12-09, 09:53 AM
#58
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Thanks! So the second barbed fitting on the compressor goes to the solenoid?
The "air" line is always allowing air to flow through? This is essentially a boost leak, right? So I guess it is best placed before the spot where you measure boost to control your boost. If you place your air pressure source after your boost control, then you would effectively have a boost leak. Unless I'm missing something.
This is what I wasn't getting. So the nozzle needs pressurized water and air to mix and atomize the water. Very cool. I'm definitely doing this when my car gets back out of the shop. It is the most elegant WI system.
I wonder what the performance drop would be if you got your boost pressure right off that cold IC pipe. It's so close!
The "air" line is always allowing air to flow through? This is essentially a boost leak, right? So I guess it is best placed before the spot where you measure boost to control your boost. If you place your air pressure source after your boost control, then you would effectively have a boost leak. Unless I'm missing something.
I wonder what the performance drop would be if you got your boost pressure right off that cold IC pipe. It's so close!
02-12-09, 02:37 PM
#59
The "air" line is always allowing air to flow through? This is essentially a boost leak, right? So I guess it is best placed before the spot where you measure boost to control your boost. If you place your air pressure source after your boost control, then you would effectively have a boost leak. Unless I'm missing something.
This is what I wasn't getting. So the nozzle needs pressurized water and air to mix and atomize the water. Very cool. I'm definitely doing this when my car gets back out of the shop. It is the most elegant WI system.
I wonder what the performance drop would be if you got your boost pressure right off that cold IC pipe. It's so close!
I wonder what the performance drop would be if you got your boost pressure right off that cold IC pipe. It's so close!
02-12-09, 03:25 PM
#60
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Yep water and air is the key in atomizing it fully. I don't think there would be a drop in performance from boost loss from getting the signal there for the reasons above, I only did it at the compressor to maximize the pressure the tank see's and therefore allowing a higher flow of water. Alternatively, I could run a short hose from the compressor to the air atomizing line on the filter(right side) then ditch the T on the tank and run another short line to the cold pipe after the intercooler. There's lots of ways to go about it.
So as I'm doing research I encounter a rumor... Inappropriate wear of the compressor wheel.
In your research, did you ever find any hard evidence that pre-turbo injection did or did not cause excessive wear to the turbo components?
I was reading and it was stated that you need very high nozzle pressures to atomize the water enough as to not damage the compressor blades.. Thoughts?
02-12-09, 03:39 PM
#61
The air atomizing nozzles atomize the water more then the high pressure nozzles because they mix air in with the water. So even at low pressures they get high atomization. I don't think erosion is an issue at all with my system. I also read about a factory installed preturbo system by I "think" it was Volvo, and the systems showing erosion had been on there for over 100k miles, the nozzles were not air atomizing nozzles nor very high pressure. They also noted that the erosion seemed to make no discernible impact on the turbo's performance. If you have large drops of water hitting the wheels I think this would be an issue, but the mist that these nozzles generate shouldn't cause this issue.
02-12-09, 04:28 PM
#62
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cool beans. I'm going to start piecing this together.
Would you recommend that same same nozzle that you ended up purchasing?
Where can I get a good solenoid?
Would you recommend that same same nozzle that you ended up purchasing?
Where can I get a good solenoid?
02-12-09, 04:38 PM
#63
Yeah the nozzle i got is very nice. It also flows the most water compared to their other nozzles. You could go with either the 1/4" body like i did or the 1/8" body which might allow for more room in mounting. I think any solenoid from a water injection site should work well. I might try redoing mine a bit to install a cold air intake onto my turbo. Which means moving the nozzle out of the filter.
02-12-09, 05:49 PM
#64
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Yeah the nozzle i got is very nice. It also flows the most water compared to their other nozzles. You could go with either the 1/4" body like i did or the 1/8" body which might allow for more room in mounting. I think any solenoid from a water injection site should work well. I might try redoing mine a bit to install a cold air intake onto my turbo. Which means moving the nozzle out of the filter.
I think a relocated intake would be good. I'm going to do that at the same time as this project. I'm going to build something custom that provides 100% outside air to the intake filter. I'm also going to do some custom work on the intake pipe and mount the water nozzle.
I'm considering these two orientations. Which is better? I hear that perhaps 'against the flow of air' is good.
02-12-09, 06:40 PM
#65
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
Here is what my cold air inlet looks like. It breathes through the grill and bumper inlets. I had an aluminum one but it was absorbing
to much heat with the radiator blowing next to it so I switched to a fiberglass/foam setup.
Barry
to much heat with the radiator blowing next to it so I switched to a fiberglass/foam setup.
Barry
03-13-09, 01:40 PM
#68
Just that i've been running it for awhile and its working great. I haven't really done any back to back tests yet. I had to replace the differential a few weeks ago and i've been trying not to be too hard on the car. Sometime i'll get some tests done with and without the injection and try to get as much data as i can with the limited test equipment that i have.
03-13-09, 03:45 PM
#69
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what were you able to tune to HP wise with the water injection only?? I'm curious to see if anyone else can achieve the same or close to the numbers RICE did.
03-17-09, 01:25 AM
#70
well so far i've only tuned to 16 psi, which is probably in the mid 400's with my setup. I do plan to raise the boost to 20, but have some things i need first. I'll be running dual stock pumps, i need a 3 bar map sensor, raise my base rail pressure. I also plan on checking and possibly redoing the important vacuum lines at the map, wastegate and FPR. I also plan on trying a 50/50 mix with meth and water to see the results between the 2. I also really need to start logging egts.
04-22-09, 06:22 PM
#71
small update on my kit. I've changed things around slightly.
The clear plastic poly type hose wasn't holding up well being connected directly to the turbo so I replaced it with some spare fuel injection hose and its been holding up very well.
I also did some testing with my air compressor and found that having the T in line with the water tank to both pressurize the tank and provide air to the nozzle created a 4-5 psi drop in the tank pressure. So I removed the T from the line and have just the 90* fitting on the tank to the fuel injector line connected to the turbo.
I replaced the lines inside my filter going to the nozzle with high quality silicone lines. The poly lines were still alright but I feel that the silicone will hold up longer.
I then ran a silicone line from my plastic elbow to provide the new air source for the atomizing nozzle, this line used to run to my pressure switch. I then tapped the tank for another fitting which connects to a line going to my pressure switch. I plan On T'ing into this line and connecting another line to my boost gauge to show me both the pressure in the tank, as well as the pressure the turbo is putting out vs the pressure I'm getting at the UIM on my profec B. That will allow me to see pressure differences in changes I make to my intercooler, piping and if my BOV ever is leaking as well as keep an eye on the WI system.
The increases pressure in the tank seemed to make a big difference in water flow. I really need a larger tank now as it empties in just a few strong boost runs.
I'm also running a clear fuel filter with stainless steel connections that I bought at walmart for $10 it's a pretty slick little filter.
My air temperatures before the WI used to clime up to about 45* c on a strong 4th gear pull. I now see a temperature drop when the WI engages. Still have no way of checking EGT's but I sense that they are nice and cool.
The clear plastic poly type hose wasn't holding up well being connected directly to the turbo so I replaced it with some spare fuel injection hose and its been holding up very well.
I also did some testing with my air compressor and found that having the T in line with the water tank to both pressurize the tank and provide air to the nozzle created a 4-5 psi drop in the tank pressure. So I removed the T from the line and have just the 90* fitting on the tank to the fuel injector line connected to the turbo.
I replaced the lines inside my filter going to the nozzle with high quality silicone lines. The poly lines were still alright but I feel that the silicone will hold up longer.
I then ran a silicone line from my plastic elbow to provide the new air source for the atomizing nozzle, this line used to run to my pressure switch. I then tapped the tank for another fitting which connects to a line going to my pressure switch. I plan On T'ing into this line and connecting another line to my boost gauge to show me both the pressure in the tank, as well as the pressure the turbo is putting out vs the pressure I'm getting at the UIM on my profec B. That will allow me to see pressure differences in changes I make to my intercooler, piping and if my BOV ever is leaking as well as keep an eye on the WI system.
The increases pressure in the tank seemed to make a big difference in water flow. I really need a larger tank now as it empties in just a few strong boost runs.
I'm also running a clear fuel filter with stainless steel connections that I bought at walmart for $10 it's a pretty slick little filter.
My air temperatures before the WI used to clime up to about 45* c on a strong 4th gear pull. I now see a temperature drop when the WI engages. Still have no way of checking EGT's but I sense that they are nice and cool.
05-09-09, 03:45 AM
#72
Another update. I drilled out my nozzle from 0.65mm to 0.80mm I then tested the flow @ 20 psi and it's flowing 500cc/min, up from the "rated" 380cc. I really need to get a bigger container now. I'll probably relocate my battery to the rear bin and add a 2.5 gallon tank. I got a little bit of ignition breakup on one pull, and then it didn't the next time so maybe it cleaned the plugs up and allowed them to fire or something. I dunno... I'm thinking I should upgrade my stock coils. I currently just have a twin power on the stock coils with new greddy race plugs.
05-09-09, 07:01 PM
#73
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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thanks for continuing to share your setup.
i don't think you are going to see much of a linear relationship between water into the motor and egts. egts are more a function of afr, timing and exhaust backpressure. this doesn't mean the water isn't getting it done... it's just that it is mostly in the combustion chamber.
hc
i don't think you are going to see much of a linear relationship between water into the motor and egts. egts are more a function of afr, timing and exhaust backpressure. this doesn't mean the water isn't getting it done... it's just that it is mostly in the combustion chamber.
hc
05-09-09, 08:04 PM
#74
thanks for continuing to share your setup.
i don't think you are going to see much of a linear relationship between water into the motor and egts. egts are more a function of afr, timing and exhaust backpressure. this doesn't mean the water isn't getting it done... it's just that it is mostly in the combustion chamber.
hc
i don't think you are going to see much of a linear relationship between water into the motor and egts. egts are more a function of afr, timing and exhaust backpressure. this doesn't mean the water isn't getting it done... it's just that it is mostly in the combustion chamber.
hc
I don't have an EGT gauge on there right now, so I couldn't comment on what my EGTs are before or after the water. They could be sky high for all I know, (i hope not) but the water should at least help suppress knock.
05-20-09, 01:32 AM
#75
Another update, I'm now running a greddy 4 bar map sensor that uses the stock connector found here: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/greddy-4-bar-map-sensor-stock-connector-838957/
I'm running dual stock fuel pumps to keep my fuel supply up for the higher boost pressure I'm running found here: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/my-dual-stock-fuel-pump-setup-839645/
I added a cold air setup for the turbo using 4" aluminum drier ducting, I relocated my air atomizing from the filter to the first turn in the cold intake coming from the turbo.
I'm boosting 20 psi currently, with high 10's to 11.0 afr's, lead timing around 7 and 500 cc/min of water. knock is under 30 at all times under boost, usually closer to 20. I'll probably increase the boost a few more psi. That's all for now!
I'm running dual stock fuel pumps to keep my fuel supply up for the higher boost pressure I'm running found here: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/my-dual-stock-fuel-pump-setup-839645/
I added a cold air setup for the turbo using 4" aluminum drier ducting, I relocated my air atomizing from the filter to the first turn in the cold intake coming from the turbo.
I'm boosting 20 psi currently, with high 10's to 11.0 afr's, lead timing around 7 and 500 cc/min of water. knock is under 30 at all times under boost, usually closer to 20. I'll probably increase the boost a few more psi. That's all for now!