Forging Fearlessly into new Frontiers w FJO
08-01-08, 07:32 AM
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Forging Fearlessly into new Frontiers w FJO
i finally got on the Beyond Redline eddy current dyno tuesday w the new generation FJO system.
the executive summary is: the electronics worked exactly as hoped. the simple stuff was the problem.
as you may know FJO is in the late stages of bringing a new system to market. unlike 90+% of all AI systems out there the FJO system uses solenoids (think fuel injectors) to dispense the injectant. just like your current daily driver. just like the FD.
computer controlled fuel injection, using 40 psi rail pressure is why we have much more efficient (better mpg, more accurate AFRs, more hp) cars.
most AI systems don't work like our fuel systems.
they simply have a pump and a nozzle (think your kitchen faucet) and they juice the pump w varying volts and out it comes. with no regard for RPM. further if you get on and off the throttle in boost the pump has zero ability to deliver similarly.
real crude.
it works pretty well for drag racing where your foot is on the floor.
it also is o k if you are just spraying water to cool your motor as the delivery requirements are not needed to be too precise.
it does not work for 100% methanol road racing or for screwwing around on the street.
FJO designed an entirely different AI setup and is on the second iteration.
FJO's system is much like the regular fuel system in your FD.
to determine the precise (we are talking milliseconds of injector ontime) amount of gasoline your computer has a lookup table w lots of cells in it. the cells are located by RPM and load. various sensors (RPM and MAP) determine the proper cell and a precise amount of fuel is injected. PRECISE.
that is exactly how the FJO system works. they have a 16 X 16 grid (256 cells) w RPM and Load. set it as you like.
their screen shows all the metrics.... whether the pump is running, what the rail pressure is, what duty the solenoids are running, rpm, throttle position % etc and it also allows you to log, replay and analise the data.
and it all works.
well, not exactly.
fuel pressure must be constant for constant delivery volume at a particular % duty.
here's where we get into a problem.
the FJO system uses the ubiquitous Shurflow pump. FJP did put a really neat aluminum housing on it w alot of fins to shed heat...
the pump pumps the methanol forward thru a filter and a pressure sensor to the solenoids. the concept is the pump is to provide constant pressure. with methanol it doesn't happen and therefore i did get varying pressures on my dyno runs.
varying pressure = varying AFRs.
according to FJO the setup works fine w no pressure problems w water.
methanol has a number of properties that challenge the current setup.... much greater density and volatility are a couple of keys. since the system deadheads at the solenoids the pump when on goes into internal bypass and overheats the liquid turning it into gas and dropping the pressure etc. once gas is created the pressure declines thru delivery... probably some cavitation.
back to the drawing boards...
as i said, FJO has already done the difficult work, we just need to fix the simple stuff.
so:
i will be adding a Weldon A2040 Bypass regulator. adj 0-200 PSI. Meth-happy.
by adding the regulator i will be able to lock my pressure. (70 PSI plus boost).
secondly, i will be adding a return (bypass) line back to my 4 gallon meth tank. by doing so i will avoid any pump churning issues.
i will also be changing to a real pump. medium term i think i will go w a custom Weldon pump but nearer term i plan to go w a Bosch variant of the 044 inline. the 044 puts out more than the 23 GPH (max) i need. Bosch makes the 909 variant that puts out 39 (V the 044s 53) GPH. normal pressure is 5 bar, 70+ PSI. so i will turn up the pressure about 25 psi and won't have to bypass as much as w the 044. the 044 is meth "tolerant."
i need to find out if the 909 is also "tolerant." if anyone has a source for obtaining that info i'd appreciate it.
it is appearing for 100% meth/w solenoids you need to build a real copy of the typical fuel system. i really want to get this done and be back on the dyno. i have waited around long enough.
why go thru all this?
because when i get the pumping straightened out the combo of a turbo'd rotary on a precise methanol and 93 octane diet will be a killer.
hc
the executive summary is: the electronics worked exactly as hoped. the simple stuff was the problem.
as you may know FJO is in the late stages of bringing a new system to market. unlike 90+% of all AI systems out there the FJO system uses solenoids (think fuel injectors) to dispense the injectant. just like your current daily driver. just like the FD.
computer controlled fuel injection, using 40 psi rail pressure is why we have much more efficient (better mpg, more accurate AFRs, more hp) cars.
most AI systems don't work like our fuel systems.
they simply have a pump and a nozzle (think your kitchen faucet) and they juice the pump w varying volts and out it comes. with no regard for RPM. further if you get on and off the throttle in boost the pump has zero ability to deliver similarly.
real crude.
it works pretty well for drag racing where your foot is on the floor.
it also is o k if you are just spraying water to cool your motor as the delivery requirements are not needed to be too precise.
it does not work for 100% methanol road racing or for screwwing around on the street.
FJO designed an entirely different AI setup and is on the second iteration.
FJO's system is much like the regular fuel system in your FD.
to determine the precise (we are talking milliseconds of injector ontime) amount of gasoline your computer has a lookup table w lots of cells in it. the cells are located by RPM and load. various sensors (RPM and MAP) determine the proper cell and a precise amount of fuel is injected. PRECISE.
that is exactly how the FJO system works. they have a 16 X 16 grid (256 cells) w RPM and Load. set it as you like.
their screen shows all the metrics.... whether the pump is running, what the rail pressure is, what duty the solenoids are running, rpm, throttle position % etc and it also allows you to log, replay and analise the data.
and it all works.
well, not exactly.
fuel pressure must be constant for constant delivery volume at a particular % duty.
here's where we get into a problem.
the FJO system uses the ubiquitous Shurflow pump. FJP did put a really neat aluminum housing on it w alot of fins to shed heat...
the pump pumps the methanol forward thru a filter and a pressure sensor to the solenoids. the concept is the pump is to provide constant pressure. with methanol it doesn't happen and therefore i did get varying pressures on my dyno runs.
varying pressure = varying AFRs.
according to FJO the setup works fine w no pressure problems w water.
methanol has a number of properties that challenge the current setup.... much greater density and volatility are a couple of keys. since the system deadheads at the solenoids the pump when on goes into internal bypass and overheats the liquid turning it into gas and dropping the pressure etc. once gas is created the pressure declines thru delivery... probably some cavitation.
back to the drawing boards...
as i said, FJO has already done the difficult work, we just need to fix the simple stuff.
so:
i will be adding a Weldon A2040 Bypass regulator. adj 0-200 PSI. Meth-happy.
by adding the regulator i will be able to lock my pressure. (70 PSI plus boost).
secondly, i will be adding a return (bypass) line back to my 4 gallon meth tank. by doing so i will avoid any pump churning issues.
i will also be changing to a real pump. medium term i think i will go w a custom Weldon pump but nearer term i plan to go w a Bosch variant of the 044 inline. the 044 puts out more than the 23 GPH (max) i need. Bosch makes the 909 variant that puts out 39 (V the 044s 53) GPH. normal pressure is 5 bar, 70+ PSI. so i will turn up the pressure about 25 psi and won't have to bypass as much as w the 044. the 044 is meth "tolerant."
i need to find out if the 909 is also "tolerant." if anyone has a source for obtaining that info i'd appreciate it.
it is appearing for 100% meth/w solenoids you need to build a real copy of the typical fuel system. i really want to get this done and be back on the dyno. i have waited around long enough.
why go thru all this?
because when i get the pumping straightened out the combo of a turbo'd rotary on a precise methanol and 93 octane diet will be a killer.
hc
08-06-08, 11:04 PM
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the FJO system uses the ubiquitous Shurflow pump. FJP did put a really neat aluminum housing on it w alot of fins to shed heat...
the pump pumps the methanol forward thru a filter and a pressure sensor to the solenoids. the concept is the pump is to provide constant pressure. with methanol it doesn't happen and therefore i did get varying pressures on my dyno runs.
varying pressure = varying AFRs.
according to FJO the setup works fine w no pressure problems w water.
methanol has a number of properties that challenge the current setup.... much greater density and volatility are a couple of keys. since the system deadheads at the solenoids the pump when on goes into internal bypass and overheats the liquid turning it into gas and dropping the pressure etc. once gas is created the pressure declines thru delivery... probably some cavitation.
the pump pumps the methanol forward thru a filter and a pressure sensor to the solenoids. the concept is the pump is to provide constant pressure. with methanol it doesn't happen and therefore i did get varying pressures on my dyno runs.
varying pressure = varying AFRs.
according to FJO the setup works fine w no pressure problems w water.
methanol has a number of properties that challenge the current setup.... much greater density and volatility are a couple of keys. since the system deadheads at the solenoids the pump when on goes into internal bypass and overheats the liquid turning it into gas and dropping the pressure etc. once gas is created the pressure declines thru delivery... probably some cavitation.
However, you expriences with the pump mirror my own. When the injector is not spraying, the pump is dead-heading and internally by-passing the methanol. The pump overheats, methanol boils, and the pressure drops to less than 20 psi.
The issue is the low boiling point of methanol versus water.
Saying that, there are two work arounds to the problem. I implemented the easier one to great effect so far.
The first work around is to install a REAL return line after the pressure sender to the tank. This would keep the pump from internally by-passing the methanol and should help to keep the pump cool. The hurdle to overcome, though, is minimizing the loss of pressure due to the return line. A methanol compatible FPR would do the trick, but you are looking at over $200 to plump the entire return set (FPR, SS fittings, hoses, etc.).
The second work around (and the one I implemented) is to install an independent relay for the pump that is MAP activated by your EMS. The relay is open and pump remains off until the MAP threshold is reached, at which time the relay closes and turns on the pump. My Wolf V500 is controlling the FJO injector via a PWM channel and I am using Wolf to control the FJO pump relay as well. I have the activation point set at 1 psi. I start spraying methanol at 5 psi all the way to 20 - 23 psi.
It works great so far. The pump heat sink is significantly cooler after driving around. I can now hold my hand on the sink; before I could only briefly touch it.
The pressure seems to remain fairly constant, regardless of how much cruising I do. The problem really comes from cruising for miles without spraying. This gives the pump a chance to overheat.
08-07-08, 07:37 AM
#3
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thanks for the info...
"The issue is the low boiling point of methanol versus water."
as per FJO you are correct. they indicate the pump does not develop gas in bypass w water. of course this doesn't help me as i run 100% meth.
the new FJO system does have an option similar to what you are doing. i switched to that option which turns on the pump as you get to boost. this does help a great deal but does not eliminate the problem.
as you know if you are using 100% methanol and taking a significant volume of gasoline out of base fuel your alcohol pressure needs to be exactly repeatable as to pressure and ideally pressure constant.
we found even w the pump coming on only under boost that repeated dyno runs resulted in varying and significantly reduced pressures. this is unacceptable. AFRs all over the place.
it may well be that the shurflow pump might work w a return line and the proper regulator but at this point i am going to remove it from the system and substitute a proper pump.
i have spoken w Bosch tech and the proper sized variant of the 044 has exactly the same internals (other than sizing) so it will work w meth. for 08 i will run the Weldon adj fuel pressure regulator w a return bypass and a bosch pump. for 09 it will be a Weldon custom pump sized exactly for the system.
i expect to have all hardware next week and be back on the dyno immediately thereafter.
hc
"The issue is the low boiling point of methanol versus water."
as per FJO you are correct. they indicate the pump does not develop gas in bypass w water. of course this doesn't help me as i run 100% meth.
the new FJO system does have an option similar to what you are doing. i switched to that option which turns on the pump as you get to boost. this does help a great deal but does not eliminate the problem.
as you know if you are using 100% methanol and taking a significant volume of gasoline out of base fuel your alcohol pressure needs to be exactly repeatable as to pressure and ideally pressure constant.
we found even w the pump coming on only under boost that repeated dyno runs resulted in varying and significantly reduced pressures. this is unacceptable. AFRs all over the place.
it may well be that the shurflow pump might work w a return line and the proper regulator but at this point i am going to remove it from the system and substitute a proper pump.
i have spoken w Bosch tech and the proper sized variant of the 044 has exactly the same internals (other than sizing) so it will work w meth. for 08 i will run the Weldon adj fuel pressure regulator w a return bypass and a bosch pump. for 09 it will be a Weldon custom pump sized exactly for the system.
i expect to have all hardware next week and be back on the dyno immediately thereafter.
hc
08-07-08, 12:03 PM
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My comments:
Another possible help would be alcohol compatible premix oil, which changes the properties of the alcohol making it more stable, probably not enough.
There is another possibly simpler solutions I can offer also that are actually very cheap, I will detail it in a new post.
for a couple of dollars you can get pump head parts from shurflow without the internal bypass, if your going to use an FPR with a return, then disable the bypass in the pump if you do this I think there is no reason to look for a new pump.
Your idea of using an EFI style bypass FPR is a good one, get something that is truly intended for constant contact with alcohol.
Another possible help would be alcohol compatible premix oil, which changes the properties of the alcohol making it more stable, probably not enough.
There is another possibly simpler solutions I can offer also that are actually very cheap, I will detail it in a new post.
for a couple of dollars you can get pump head parts from shurflow without the internal bypass, if your going to use an FPR with a return, then disable the bypass in the pump if you do this I think there is no reason to look for a new pump.
Your idea of using an EFI style bypass FPR is a good one, get something that is truly intended for constant contact with alcohol.
08-07-08, 05:09 PM
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The FPR option is the best solution, as it will reference manifold pressure and increase the pressure accordingly. I'll probably opt for this alternative next year in conjunction with the pump relay. Another thing I did was install a 50 scfm computer fan on top of the pump, blowing down across the heat sink.
Saying that, my AFRs are fairly stable under boost during repeated runs (11.5 to 12, still tuning for a steady 12). I've accounted for the drop in pressure in my injector duty cycles. I am pulling 20% fuel at the moment and have my failsafe setup to switch maps based on methanol pressure. If the pressure drops below the threshold, my EMS switches to my fuel only map.
Saying that, my AFRs are fairly stable under boost during repeated runs (11.5 to 12, still tuning for a steady 12). I've accounted for the drop in pressure in my injector duty cycles. I am pulling 20% fuel at the moment and have my failsafe setup to switch maps based on methanol pressure. If the pressure drops below the threshold, my EMS switches to my fuel only map.
08-07-08, 07:30 PM
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Referencing manifold pressure actually isn't necessary providing you are tuning based upon manifold pressure as the load source, it will happen inherently in the map.
The FPR option is the best solution, as it will reference manifold pressure and increase the pressure accordingly. I'll probably opt for this alternative next year in conjunction with the pump relay. Another thing I did was install a 50 scfm computer fan on top of the pump, blowing down across the heat sink.
Saying that, my AFRs are fairly stable under boost during repeated runs (11.5 to 12, still tuning for a steady 12). I've accounted for the drop in pressure in my injector duty cycles. I am pulling 20% fuel at the moment and have my failsafe setup to switch maps based on methanol pressure. If the pressure drops below the threshold, my EMS switches to my fuel only map.
Saying that, my AFRs are fairly stable under boost during repeated runs (11.5 to 12, still tuning for a steady 12). I've accounted for the drop in pressure in my injector duty cycles. I am pulling 20% fuel at the moment and have my failsafe setup to switch maps based on methanol pressure. If the pressure drops below the threshold, my EMS switches to my fuel only map.
08-07-08, 09:54 PM
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The fuel injector FPR references manifold pressure to increase fuel pressure 1:1 with boost. Right now the FJO injector is not boost referenced, so when your manifold pressure is 20 psi, your methanol pressure at the pump is the same as it was at atmospheric.
You need to reference manifold pressure for the methanol FPR in order to provide a steady, constant pressure for the methanol injector.
You need to reference manifold pressure for the methanol FPR in order to provide a steady, constant pressure for the methanol injector.
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08-07-08, 11:27 PM
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nope....
If your load calculation source is manifold pressure and that's what your injection is based (typically a 3d map referencing load and rpm) on then you don't need to reference manifold pressure with the FPR and it doesn't matter that the injected pressure goes down because the tuned map inherently compensates for this.
you could extend this to the overall EFI system also and apply this same logic.
In other words you do not need to apply a constant steady pressure, to inject a calculated and accurate amount.
If your load calculation source is manifold pressure and that's what your injection is based (typically a 3d map referencing load and rpm) on then you don't need to reference manifold pressure with the FPR and it doesn't matter that the injected pressure goes down because the tuned map inherently compensates for this.
you could extend this to the overall EFI system also and apply this same logic.
In other words you do not need to apply a constant steady pressure, to inject a calculated and accurate amount.
The fuel injector FPR references manifold pressure to increase fuel pressure 1:1 with boost. Right now the FJO injector is not boost referenced, so when your manifold pressure is 20 psi, your methanol pressure at the pump is the same as it was at atmospheric.
You need to reference manifold pressure for the methanol FPR in order to provide a steady, constant pressure for the methanol injector.
You need to reference manifold pressure for the methanol FPR in order to provide a steady, constant pressure for the methanol injector.
08-08-08, 07:31 AM
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i think it could work well either by referencing manifold pressure or not...
since we have rpm/load mapping for base fuel thru the PFC and the FJO system it is a simple matter to just do some tuning. i am locating my Weldon Bypass Alcohol Regulator next to the pump which is located behind the plastic panel near the driver's side half shaft. the primary reason for locating it in that position is to have a short bypass alcohol return line to the tank.
should i wish to reference manifold pressure it would require a longish line to the motor. do-able but just more stuff... i like to keep things simple.
it would be possible to use a Bosch intank pump but lots of work in the fuel cell. inline works as well and would tend to heat the alcohol less.
hc
since we have rpm/load mapping for base fuel thru the PFC and the FJO system it is a simple matter to just do some tuning. i am locating my Weldon Bypass Alcohol Regulator next to the pump which is located behind the plastic panel near the driver's side half shaft. the primary reason for locating it in that position is to have a short bypass alcohol return line to the tank.
should i wish to reference manifold pressure it would require a longish line to the motor. do-able but just more stuff... i like to keep things simple.
it would be possible to use a Bosch intank pump but lots of work in the fuel cell. inline works as well and would tend to heat the alcohol less.
hc
08-08-08, 09:46 AM
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one other issue with an alcohol intank pump, alcohol is somewhat conductive and intank pumps typicly have contacts submerged.
i think it could work well either by referencing manifold pressure or not...
since we have rpm/load mapping for base fuel thru the PFC and the FJO system it is a simple matter to just do some tuning. i am locating my Weldon Bypass Alcohol Regulator next to the pump which is located behind the plastic panel near the driver's side half shaft. the primary reason for locating it in that position is to have a short bypass alcohol return line to the tank.
should i wish to reference manifold pressure it would require a longish line to the motor. do-able but just more stuff... i like to keep things simple.
it would be possible to use a Bosch intank pump but lots of work in the fuel cell. inline works as well and would tend to heat the alcohol less.
hc
since we have rpm/load mapping for base fuel thru the PFC and the FJO system it is a simple matter to just do some tuning. i am locating my Weldon Bypass Alcohol Regulator next to the pump which is located behind the plastic panel near the driver's side half shaft. the primary reason for locating it in that position is to have a short bypass alcohol return line to the tank.
should i wish to reference manifold pressure it would require a longish line to the motor. do-able but just more stuff... i like to keep things simple.
it would be possible to use a Bosch intank pump but lots of work in the fuel cell. inline works as well and would tend to heat the alcohol less.
hc
08-09-08, 07:40 AM
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i looked at all the pump options. most alcohol pumps are designed for monster GPH. generally these pumps are in drag cars that make 1000 rwhp and beyond.
the requirements for my AI alcohol system are 23 GPH max... not 100 GPH+.
secondly, i need 100 PSI. most pumps function at half that rate although pressure could be raised by controlling the output orfice size.
i had an excellent talk w Weldon. they completely understand my needs and will help me w bypass sizing. Weldon will make a purpose sized pump. since it will take some time i am going w a Bosch inline (probably the 909) which will will deliver the GPH and PSI and is methanol compatible... though Bosch says it is not designed to be used w meth. i hear numerous people have used the pump successfully.... any input appreciated on this point.
hc
the requirements for my AI alcohol system are 23 GPH max... not 100 GPH+.
secondly, i need 100 PSI. most pumps function at half that rate although pressure could be raised by controlling the output orfice size.
i had an excellent talk w Weldon. they completely understand my needs and will help me w bypass sizing. Weldon will make a purpose sized pump. since it will take some time i am going w a Bosch inline (probably the 909) which will will deliver the GPH and PSI and is methanol compatible... though Bosch says it is not designed to be used w meth. i hear numerous people have used the pump successfully.... any input appreciated on this point.
hc
08-10-08, 08:05 PM
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If you have time to try it, there would be great service done to the AI community by trying the bypass pressure regulator with the shurfo pump, as this is the inexpensive available pump that everyone already has and uses.
It would cost very little and be easy, the pump parts to remove the pressure bypass from the pump are a couple of dollars and easy to install.
I am convinced that its not the shurfo pump itself that is causing the problem but in fact the way its bypassing to regulate pressure.
I think that its generating vapor into the pump intake.
It would cost very little and be easy, the pump parts to remove the pressure bypass from the pump are a couple of dollars and easy to install.
I am convinced that its not the shurfo pump itself that is causing the problem but in fact the way its bypassing to regulate pressure.
I think that its generating vapor into the pump intake.
i looked at all the pump options. most alcohol pumps are designed for monster GPH. generally these pumps are in drag cars that make 1000 rwhp and beyond.
the requirements for my AI alcohol system are 23 GPH max... not 100 GPH+.
secondly, i need 100 PSI. most pumps function at half that rate although pressure could be raised by controlling the output orfice size.
i had an excellent talk w Weldon. they completely understand my needs and will help me w bypass sizing. Weldon will make a purpose sized pump. since it will take some time i am going w a Bosch inline (probably the 909) which will will deliver the GPH and PSI and is methanol compatible... though Bosch says it is not designed to be used w meth. i hear numerous people have used the pump successfully.... any input appreciated on this point.
hc
the requirements for my AI alcohol system are 23 GPH max... not 100 GPH+.
secondly, i need 100 PSI. most pumps function at half that rate although pressure could be raised by controlling the output orfice size.
i had an excellent talk w Weldon. they completely understand my needs and will help me w bypass sizing. Weldon will make a purpose sized pump. since it will take some time i am going w a Bosch inline (probably the 909) which will will deliver the GPH and PSI and is methanol compatible... though Bosch says it is not designed to be used w meth. i hear numerous people have used the pump successfully.... any input appreciated on this point.
hc
08-14-08, 08:55 PM
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So far my relay setup is working beautifully. The pressure is remaining constant over long durations of cruising and then boosting. My pump is in my engine bay 1.5 feet from my turbo and exhaust manifold!. I understand that FJO's software has that option built-in, but is it possible that the pump is still running?
08-15-08, 07:28 PM
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Im sure its a great system but if you want the pump heatsink to work, you need a fan to blow on it.
David
08-16-08, 07:19 PM
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David
08-19-08, 11:03 AM
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Yes of course, it does not have to be a fan, however due to the placement of pumps under the hood or in the trunk, typically the only air you can get is from a fan. If you place the pump in air flow of course that would work. My point is, unless you have air flow that sink does nothing.
David
David
However, once I switched to the dedicated meth pump relay, my boiling issues have disappeared.
I have 45 minutes of logging that shows fairly steady methanol pressure at 22 psi of boost.
08-19-08, 12:03 PM
#22
now I've got to ask, being that I work on computer, why would they make video cards with just heatsinks if heatsinks didn't work? I understand heat soak but there has been plenty of computer parts that get cooled by heatsinks alone (ie. processors, south and northbridge chipsets, video cards, and ram). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if it didn't work at all and only served as a primary way of getting heat soak why would so many computer part be cooled by heatsink alone?
08-19-08, 12:33 PM
#23
now I've got to ask, being that I work on computer, why would they make video cards with just heatsinks if heatsinks didn't work? I understand heat soak but there has been plenty of computer parts that get cooled by heatsinks alone (ie. processors, south and northbridge chipsets, video cards, and ram). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if it didn't work at all and only served as a primary way of getting heat soak why would so many computer part be cooled by heatsink alone?
A car is dynamic, and more than likely to get hot. Whether it be in the engine bay, or sitting next to the gas tank. there is no moving air, or not much.