When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Auxiliary InjectionThe place to discuss topics of water injection, alky/meth injection, mixing water/alky and all of the various systems and tuning methods for it. Aux Injection is a great way to have a reliable high power rotary.
i started this section in 2006 after adopting AI as an important part of the turbo'd rotary system architecture. at that time the TurboBuick forum had a huge AI section. i have been running AI since 2003.
of course any road traveled has it's share of bumps, turns and dead ends. just like the TurboBuick forum those bumps and turns are reflected on our board.
time for a fresh coat of paint, a 2022 update.
AI is a necessary today as it was 20 years ago since the laws of physics are unrelenting.
it is my belief that the community (generally) has a highly optimistic view as to IATs. primarily because of a belief that the thermistor is able to generate timely temp data.
whether the thermistor is "fast" or not, it moves glacially while IATs move instantaneously.
many of us use Thermcouples to monitor EGTs. Thermocouples, unlike thermistors, generate at least four accurate readings per second. "accurate" as in plus or minus four tenths of one percent.
that would be four tenths plus or minus of ONE DEGREE F at 100 F.
let's take a look at the actual data from 22 of my 3rd gear runs at 20 psi, 6000 rpm.
average boost: 19.7 psi
average temp out of the turbo before the intercooler 329 F (EFR 9180)
average IAT as measured in the stock location by a thermocouple: 162 F
welcome to the real world of IATs.
a few qualifiers
data generates at 2250 ft altitude... 8% less oxygen so turbo has to work a bit harder than at sea level so slightly higher temps out of the compressor
around 1320 cc of methanol as AI
this data was generated using four different intercooler cores. the best was my oldest, a Spearco 13 X 17 X 3.5. stock location, similar to the Pettit.
i have a wonderful Spearco 1995 technical intercooler booklet.
the technical data on my specific core (C #2-180) correlates with my data.
to calculate core efficiency:
air T before IC minus air T out of IC divided by air T before IC minus ambiant T
329 minus 162/ 329 minus105 (actual air T next to air filter not outside T)
IC efficiency 74.5%.
Spearco, however, calculates efficiency for this core at my flow rate as 50%.
IAT would have been 217 F if not for the cooling from the meth.
as i mentioned i had 3 other ICs built last year. two from C&R and one from Bell. i looked at Mishimoto and concluded they weren't worth the effort. all three had larger pressure drops and cooled less than the Spearco. George Spears sold Spearco to Turbonetics and i don't have a current read on whether the current offering resembles what i have. Pettit used to use Spearco cores but now they are made in Tiawan. (don't know if that is a negative or not.) Garrett sells intercooler cores and they might be next on my list.
if you look at ALL of the IC offerings... they are too small for our plus 30% flow to piston engine needs. oh well.
conclusion today same as conclusion in 2006... we need all the help we can get to lower IATs.
AI is essential.
here's an item that should probably be added to your system. i confess i am late to the party and ordered a couple today...
Snow Performance is currently the major element in AI. Snow was bought by Nitrous Express so you need to go th NX to find Snow, or Wisconsin.
this looks like a winner:
here's the description from Snow:
The Snow Performance Hyper-Sonic water-methanol injection nozzle is the worlds best selling and most advanced water-meth nozzle. Constructed out of 100% methanol resistant nickel plating, the patented Hyper-Sonic design spins the fluid to supersonic levels before forcing it through two venturi shaped orifices to create the Hyper-Sonic micron droplet mist that has become the industry leader in water-methanol technology. Complete with a removable 80 micron filter, the Hyper-Sonic nozzle can be cleaned and re-used on any application. To unlock power hidden within your water-methanol injection system replace your nozzles with Hyper-Sonic nozzles today! (1/8" NPT Threads)
we all can benefit from better atomisation, especially water as it doesn't flash like methanol. i will report in after receiving them.
Interesting. Have you thought of ditching the factory IC placement to make it easer to use a properly sized core? I would have to believe making sure the core size for all the brands you are testing are able to cool the amount of air you are flowing without AI would be a much more valid test. I would think adding AI should be the cherry on top for extra safety but not necessary if a properly sized core is used. Garrett cores are really good as you would expect and should be higher quality then what you have currently used. Would be interested to see your results with one that is properly sized.
Here is a log from a few years ago using a 66mm 9180SXE with fairly large v mounted Garrett core. Core part number 703522-6005 which can be found here. Peak of 29 psi falling off to 26 psi by redline. Ambient temps were mid to high 70's. Sensor back then was the normal "Fast acting" air temp sensor that is commonly used. Unfortunately no pre IC reading at that time. Max temp was 114F which is a little higher then the log image. I'm sure the sensor was a still playing catch up to what is registered in the image.
there are 11 sizes. there is a bit more info on the EU site...
"Boost Cooler Water Injection Nozzle - Size 10
Flow Rate 630ml/min (6.0GPH) @ 100psi
The SNOW Performance Hyper-Sonic Water-Methanol Injection Nozzle is the worlds best selling and most advanced water-meth nozzle. Constructed out of 100% methanol resistant stainless steel/zinc plating, the patented Hyper-Sonic design spins the fluid to supersonic levels before forcing it through two venturi shaped orifices to create the Hyper-Sonic micron droplet mist that has become the industry leader in water-methanol technology.
Complete with a 80 micron filter, our water injection nozzle can be cleaned and re-used on any application. To unlock power hidden within your water-methanol injection system replace your nozzles with Hyper-Sonic nozzles today. The Boost Cooler Hyper-Sonic-nozzles offer up to 20µ fine atomised mist. - It's the last water-methanol injection nozzle you will ever need to buy.
The key to water injection is how fine the fluid droplets are upon injection. The smaller the droplets, the more total surface area per volume injected which results in more heat reduction = more power. Because of this fact, more cooling can be done with less fluid. More of the intake charge can be filled with cold O2 - not water.
Product Features:
2-chamber nozzle, Venturi-Design
Nominal Flow Rate: ~ 630ml/min / 10.0 GPH
Material: Stainless steel with zinc plating
80µ (micron) fine mesh filter
Outer Thread: 1/8"NPT27
100% Methanol resistant
Note: To use our nozzles, you need our Boost Cooler nozzle holder. The nominal flow data relate to 100 psi pump pressure."
i think but do not know that the nozzles will screw into most of our "holders" as they are just 1/8 NPT. i will advise upon receipt.
Neutron,
thanks for the post. nice turbo choice and i totally believe your power number. your data is quite interesting.
assuming the upper numbers are your time log;
peak boost reached at low 16 seconds on the log.
run ended when you cut throttle mid 24 seconds so about an 8 second run.
IATs rise throughout the run and actually peak after.
temps at your cursor (111 F) are higher until mid 34 seconds.
10 seconds after you cut your throttle. actual IATs don't work that way. range bound sensors do.
from my logs
i am at 99.9 TPS and 25.8 psi at 2:54.266 seconds
at 2:54.415 seconds i am at .5 of one percent throttle, -2.4 psi and my IAT has dropped 58.9 degrees. all in .149 of one second.
compressor outlet temp pre-intercooler dropped 58 degrees during that time.
as to intercoolers, i think i may contact Garrett and have them make me a custom setup. i am getting close to them as i am in process of installing my G40-1150. i understand that for some apps a 4.5 inch core might work but for other apps it is a 50 rwhp discount for heat soak.
having logged both pressure drops and efficiency between 4 well built intercoolers i will gladly take the 50+ degree drop in IATs from my AI system. after the best IC you can find if you really know your actual IATs you will not consider it a cherry on the top that you can just as well go without.
this is sort of turning into a nozzle thread... also, to many who have more recently researched AI it is probably obvious that i am in a catch up mode especially w re to nozzles.
it appears that swirl and having a recess that allows a bit of spread from the orfice are the two keys to modern design. since the charge air is moving in the 400 mph area (as per AEM) there is a HUGE amount of instant shear hitting anything coming out of the nozzle.
while re-looking at the threads in the section i noticed "ProMeth"... glad i looked a bit further as it appears at initial glance they have THE nozzle. while AEM seems to have the same fundamental design elements, ProMeth is done in stainless steel rather than plastic. i am going to talk with them today. i do want to say, w re to AEM, that they have greatly upgraded their product (V3) and totally love their video w the dynamic intake flow bench, heated flow no less. bravo AEM. note, btw, the sensors being used to monitor the dynamic data. nothing but thermocouples.
a very interesting dynamic noted by AEM is not only how much faster a better spray pattern effects IATs but how Significantly Lower the flow requirement is... way better MPG. way better.
here are some eye opening pics of the ProMeth nozzles:
I don't have much to add here except I was less than impressed with the Snow performance nozzles. The coating was flaking off around the nozzle orifice on two of them right out of the box. Looks like they may be coated and then drilled which leaves a nasty edge on the orifice. I am not thrilled of the idea that the coating could make its way into my engine. Even worse might be a flake inside the nozzle? May be fine but I am not sure I want to use them...
I also have a handful of the earlier ProMeth nozzles, which are virtually identical to the Snow nozzles (but no flaking). The ProMeth products I have purchased are fantastic, but the customer service is lacking. I recently emailed to order something with a custom configuration. Rodney was great to answer my questions but when it came to the cost it was not clear or concise. Did not seem to want to provide a formal quote, and this was ~$1000 of product that I was ready to order. I tried to call a couple times, no answer. I then got ahold of Snow performance and despite an 8hr time difference, they were helpful and accommodating and got me what I needed quickly!
Those new ProMeth nozzles look neat and I would like to try them, but I should probably get the car back on the road first.
***In terms of the nozzle holders, the ones from Snow and ProMeth also look identical. There should be no problem switching between these nozzles if your holder is 1/8 NPT based.
really appreciate your nozzle info 1badFB. i had a couple of lengthy convos w Rodney after i had ordered the Snow nozzles. according to Rodney, Snow copies lots of his stuff. apparently ProMeth had a prior design nozzle for a long time that Snow copied. recently PM came out w the current nozzle and the Snow is a copy, according to him. i did talk to Snow yesterday and was told that their current (new style) nozzle is "all stainless steel." just checked w a magnet and no magnetism. i also looked at them w my 10X and i don't see any evidence of plating.
i ordered a couple of mounts so they can attach through my silicone coupler just ahead of my elbow. it is nice that i can easily swap in the ProMeth nozzles if i wish.
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-26-22 at 10:30 AM.
Was tough to get a decent photo but here is one of the nozzles I purchased roughly 6 mo. ago from Snow Performance. Should be the most current style, looks like plated stainless.
Disappointed! This is a brand new nozzle and has not had anything run though it. The flakes coming off are large enough to block or obstruct the orifice.
Well I think I've got most of the puzzle together, but now I need some advise on how to control things. I can either control the system completely with a Snow Performance stage 3 controller or via Haltech elite 2500.
I currently have the Snow UHO pump and two solenoids, but no idea of how to program the Haltech. PWM the pump through a solid state relay and trigger the solenoids based on MAP? Anyone have any idea of duty cycle vs pressure?
Also, are there any suggestions for failsafes beyond monitoring IATs?
i planned, before talking to Rodney/ProMeth for an hour or two yesterday, to simply replace my two M10 (630 cc/min at 100 psi) with a similar PM size. as you may know they have 18 different jet sizes and delivery can also be adjusted by the number of atomizer slots.
i chose the .0362 with 4 slots. the nozzles are around $27 each. you can buy a nozzle and then adjust delivery by swapping in another atomizer.
i may be going in a different direction as to location so stay tuned, it might get quite interesting or not
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-27-22 at 12:48 PM.
I was looking to upgrade from V2 to V3 nozzles is why I had asked. Thanks for the info.
With Summit Racing being local I ended up just buying the V3 conversion kit along with some other things needed. It doesn’t come with any literature on how to tell the nozzle inserts apart from each other. You have to go to the AEM site and pull up the documentation to find it. The little plastic swirl-generator flow nozzles are so small I almost need a magnifying glass. The threaded end of the holders are more different than I was expecting; much longer, but the 1/8” NPT thread size is the same.
any way just fyi, apology for the side diversion ..
…
"pulsing just the pump and having issues achieving flow flow"
your outcome is predictable as attempting to make a DC pump change output quickly is like turning the Queen Mary. you are on the right track. controlling a solenoid (which is essentially the same as a fuel injejctor) is the right way to go.
i also like ProMeth, both the proprietor and products. i may explore a small amount of pre-turbo meth controlled by my Link G4X Extreme and a ProMeth solenoid. i have always had a number of concerns re pre-turbo but ProMeth/Rodney opened my mind a bit. i am mostly looking to lower IATs as my new turbo has more capacity than i need for my app.while i will be powering just a bit more wheel, due to better efficiency around 80 pounds per minute, i will be dropping 20 F IAT.
"pulsing just the pump and having issues achieving flow flow"
your outcome is predictable as attempting to make a DC pump change output quickly is like turning the Queen Mary. you are on the right track. controlling a solenoid (which is essentially the same as a fuel injejctor) is the right way to go.
i also like ProMeth, both the proprietor and products. i may explore a small amount of pre-turbo meth controlled by my Link G4X Extreme and a ProMeth solenoid. i have always had a number of concerns re pre-turbo but ProMeth/Rodney opened my mind a bit. i am mostly looking to lower IATs as my new turbo has more capacity than i need for my app.while i will be powering just a bit more wheel, due to better efficiency around 80 pounds per minute, i will be dropping 20 F IAT.
spoke to Rodney today, he was full of help and very knowledgeable.
didn't push his products on me either, very genuine guy. I will def do business with them in future possibly starting with that nozzle
Was told recently that water/meth can actually eat out the seals in a rotary.
Anyone ever seen this happen?
Maybe Howard can comment in greater detail. I know of a lot of rotary owners that use some form of AI(Meth, Water/Meth water). Similarly people are using E30-85+. From what I have gathered, I think everyone in the community has agreed that adding 2 stroke oil to the gas helps to keep the seals adequately taken care of. There are varying opinion about how much and depends on if you still have the OMP, but Howard has an entire write-up on his website. I believe Howard has been running some form of AI mixture or even E30 for years.
i have run around 1000 CC/Min of 100% methanol as AI injectant since 2003. while i am aware that methanol does corrode aluminum my throttle body appears totally unmolested. as to the "seals"... i assume you mean the coolant seals? i see no evidence of any degradation.
on the positive side, the apex seals are far less likely to warp due to the reduction of combustion chamber heat.
Late to the discussion, but my Rice Racing Pre-Turbo setup does not lowers IATs. Perhaps I am not pushing the turbo hard enough, or my intercooler is too big for my needs, or my IAT sensor is not fast enough to see the changes...
Would love to see your datalogs once you have it configured/tested!
Late to the discussion, but my Rice Racing Pre-Turbo setup does not lowers IATs.
A little off topic, and I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere, but what did you consider to be (or were at the time you installed) the advantages of pre turbo location vs. something downstream closer to ports? I'm curious as to the pros and cons of various injection locations.
04-28-22, 10:42 AM
. way better.
