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4 Rotor Water Injection, Trigger water injection VIA Relay from ECU Haltech Output?

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4 Rotor Water Injection, Trigger water injection VIA Relay from ECU Haltech Output?

Old 06-02-16, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
It's just not necessary for detonation resistance. So you end up with something that's overly complicated and introduce more potential failure points. The simplest method to achieve your goal is best. With E85 you'll be able to max out your combination and not worry about detonation.
if you dont mind answering.. but would going to a bigger turbo like this make water or 50/50 injection beneficial WITH E85 of course


its the sxe 8374.. my second choice.

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Old 06-03-16, 11:03 AM
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Possibly. I've seen a lot of housings with severe wear using gasoline as well. YMMV
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Old 06-03-16, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lastphaseofthis View Post
if you dont mind answering.. but would going to a bigger turbo like this make water or 50/50 injection beneficial WITH E85 of course


its the sxe 8374.. my second choice.
Only if you plan to lean on it hard enough to reach the knock limit of your fuel.
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Old 06-03-16, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
Only if you plan to lean on it hard enough to reach the knock limit of your fuel.


but on the 7670.. i can't lean on it hard enough to surpass the knock limits on e85..

i ordered my sxe 7670 today..
thanks for your imput
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Old 06-03-16, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Monsterbox View Post
Good ideas guys

I'd like to do some progressive control but really its just straight water and whatever is most simple is fine with me.
If simplicity is what you are after, you might like a nice simple mechanical setup like this one:

Mechanical Pre-Turbo Water Injection - Wannaspeed
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Old 11-13-17, 01:12 PM
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Wanted to update this,

Not using the progressive, but instead just a simple output from ECU to trigger a simple relay in the trunk, which powers the pump. Check-valve at the injector. Has been working great so far. Just programming the output on the ECU to stage at 8psi boost, giving it a little head start before we hit our 13psi target. The amount of water/meth ratio is only 10% of overall fuel volume, so it only brings the AFR down around 0.2pts overall at the moment. Tuning this out would require subtracting some fuel from the VE table BUTTT, we've got a solution for this. The new Haltech Elite update, allows you to run a fuel correction table, which can be triggered by up to 3x conditions. This weekend I'm installing a fuel pressure gauge on the water/meth line which will be used to detect the water methanol flow. In theory, we should be able to trigger the relay via the output, which will then spray the methanol, which will then send data into the ecu via the fuel pressure sensor. The fuel correction table can then be activated when fuel pressure regulator sees over "xxx psi" while over 8psi boost. Then the correction table can temporarily subtract fuel from the VE table. If the fuel pressure regulator were to read below the threshold condition, then the table would be deactivated, thereby enriching the fuel mixture to the tune before methanol injection; a viable fail-safe
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Old 11-15-17, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Monsterbox View Post
Wanted to update this,

Not using the progressive, but instead just a simple output from ECU to trigger a simple relay in the trunk, which powers the pump. Check-valve at the injector. Has been working great so far. Just programming the output on the ECU to stage at 8psi boost, giving it a little head start before we hit our 13psi target. The amount of water/meth ratio is only 10% of overall fuel volume, so it only brings the AFR down around 0.2pts overall at the moment. Tuning this out would require subtracting some fuel from the VE table BUTTT, we've got a solution for this. The new Haltech Elite update, allows you to run a fuel correction table, which can be triggered by up to 3x conditions. This weekend I'm installing a fuel pressure gauge on the water/meth line which will be used to detect the water methanol flow. In theory, we should be able to trigger the relay via the output, which will then spray the methanol, which will then send data into the ecu via the fuel pressure sensor. The fuel correction table can then be activated when fuel pressure regulator sees over "xxx psi" while over 8psi boost. Then the correction table can temporarily subtract fuel from the VE table. If the fuel pressure regulator were to read below the threshold condition, then the table would be deactivated, thereby enriching the fuel mixture to the tune before methanol injection; a viable fail-safe
That's brilliant!
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Old 11-16-17, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Monsterbox View Post
This weekend I'm installing a fuel pressure gauge on the water/meth line which will be used to detect the water methanol flow. In theory, we should be able to trigger the relay via the output, which will then spray the methanol, which will then send data into the ecu via the fuel pressure sensor. The fuel correction table can then be activated when fuel pressure regulator sees over "xxx psi" while over 8psi boost. Then the correction table can temporarily subtract fuel from the VE table. If the fuel pressure regulator were to read below the threshold condition, then the table would be deactivated, thereby enriching the fuel mixture to the tune before methanol injection; a viable fail-safe
You can have pressure but no flow. A flow sensor, like I installed on Mark's car, is a more complete answer.
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Old 11-20-17, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
You can have pressure but no flow. A flow sensor, like I installed on Mark's car, is a more complete answer.
I wish those went above 1000cc/min!
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Old 11-21-17, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Monsterbox View Post
I wish those went above 1000cc/min!
When I tested it you could very easily peg the gauge. It had a linear output so it would be pretty easy to test it and extrapolate the output past what AEM uses it for.
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Old 11-22-17, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Monsterbox View Post
Wanted to update this,

Not using the progressive, but instead just a simple output from ECU to trigger a simple relay in the trunk, which powers the pump. Check-valve at the injector. Has been working great so far. Just programming the output on the ECU to stage at 8psi boost, giving it a little head start before we hit our 13psi target. The amount of water/meth ratio is only 10% of overall fuel volume, so it only brings the AFR down around 0.2pts overall at the moment. Tuning this out would require subtracting some fuel from the VE table BUTTT, we've got a solution for this. The new Haltech Elite update, allows you to run a fuel correction table, which can be triggered by up to 3x conditions. This weekend I'm installing a fuel pressure gauge on the water/meth line which will be used to detect the water methanol flow. In theory, we should be able to trigger the relay via the output, which will then spray the methanol, which will then send data into the ecu via the fuel pressure sensor. The fuel correction table can then be activated when fuel pressure regulator sees over "xxx psi" while over 8psi boost. Then the correction table can temporarily subtract fuel from the VE table. If the fuel pressure regulator were to read below the threshold condition, then the table would be deactivated, thereby enriching the fuel mixture to the tune before methanol injection; a viable fail-safe
Another way of accomplishing this task WITH gaining progressive tuning:

Main Setup > Functions > Fuel Pump > Aux Fuel Pump 1

Setup
Run a Hella 20A Solid State Relay on the Water Injection Pump

ECU Calibration

Mode: Digital - Duty Cycle
Trigger Type - Estimated Flow Rate
Estimated Fuel Flow - ~3500-4000cc/min or wherever you think a good threshold for 8psi is for your particular setup. Range is UP TO 5000cc/min (maximum).
Time Hysteresis - 1000ms

ECU Table

On the main table, you have your left column now occupied by "Fuel Pump Duty Cycle > Aux Fuel Pump 1 Table"
You gain 2x Axis here with 8 fields each, so an 8x8 2D table.
Setup can be MAP vs. Water Injection Pressure or anything to your liking. (One trick would be using "Power Steering Pressure" here and 8 data points from the sensor on the water injection system.)

Extra Credit

Power Steering Pressure Sensor > Display = Warning Setup
Power Steering Pressure Sensor > Diagnostics > Raw Min/Raw Max (Voltage) = DTC Severity (Check Engine Light and Protection Modes)

-Ryan @ RGHTBrainDesign
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Old 11-23-17, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
Another way of accomplishing this task WITH gaining progressive tuning:

Main Setup
Extra Credit

Power Steering Pressure Sensor > Display = Warning Setup
Power Steering Pressure Sensor > Diagnostics > Raw Min/Raw Max (Voltage) = DTC Severity (Check Engine Light and Protection Modes)

-Ryan @ RGHTBrainDesign
No need to use a channel without the proper name. Define the channel on a generic input and then name it whatever you'd like.

Have you done solid state control of the pump? It's very slow to react. If you want good 3D control, use one of Holley's injector solenoids. Holley bought FJO and it's their old stuff. Works like a fuel injector. Allows precise metering of the injectant. Much more precise and faster reacting than trying to control volume with pump speed.
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Old 11-27-17, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
No need to use a channel without the proper name. Define the channel on a generic input and then name it whatever you'd like.

Have you done solid state control of the pump? It's very slow to react. If you want good 3D control, use one of Holley's injector solenoids. Holley bought FJO and it's their old stuff. Works like a fuel injector. Allows precise metering of the injectant. Much more precise and faster reacting than trying to control volume with pump speed.
I have yet to do personal testing, sadly. I would think that any lag that you're referring to is made worse when lower frequency PWM values are used, just like with wastegate control. I'd rather trade off usability range to increase response for this application. I had planned to run my primary fuel pump on a 3-step pump speed via PWM. Idle, Cruise, and ON. 2nd and 3rd pumps are on via standard relays. Is it really THAT slow?

Referencing the FJO part, the alternative that should be well aware to anyone on this forum is the 1300cc/min Aquamist Fast Acting Valve for $100. I prefer to run ZERO Holley parts on my car for a multitude of reasons. The price point on this is also more accessible.
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Old 11-27-17, 05:28 PM
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That fjo/holley pwm solenoid looks just like a industrial stainless steel honeywell solenoid i have with 1/8" npt ports.
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Old 11-28-17, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SirLaughsALot View Post
Is it really THAT slow?
We're talking water/methanol pump control. Not fuel pumps providing mass to pressurize a fuel rail. And yes. If you plan to control water/methanol volume by controlling pump speed with an SSR, you'll be disappointed.
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Old 11-29-17, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by C. Ludwig View Post
We're talking water/methanol pump control. Not fuel pumps providing mass to pressurize a fuel rail. And yes. If you plan to control water/methanol volume by controlling pump speed with an SSR, you'll be disappointed.

I agree, I never liked the idea of slowing the pump down / dropping pressure to control flow. The misting/atomizing surely has to suffer. If I step up to higher methanol percentage of overall fuel volume, will definitely be utilizing FJO/Holly solenoid. Seems to be doing fine right now just letting her eat 1200cc of 50/50, isn't enough to really change the tune to drastically
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Old 01-26-19, 03:31 AM
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Kinda of a crazy Idea but has anyone who has removed the OMP and the two injectors, replaced them with DI W/M injectors?
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Old 01-26-19, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by brucebrucehitit View Post
Kinda of a crazy Idea but has anyone who has removed the OMP and the two injectors, replaced them with DI W/M injectors?
Realistically you can run a Richard Sohn OMP Adapter and a reservoir of Water/Meth to pump into those factory OMP parts. Honestly, I'm surprised I've heard of no one doing this over the last 5+yrs. Makes sense and it's entirely controllable on a standalone ECU with ease. The best part is you can set it up for Load vs. RPM vs. Ethanol Content or whatever your heart desires. Easy programming.





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Old 01-26-19, 06:22 AM
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Thanks for your input.
I picked up one of his kits last week and was thinking of using it for clean oil but, then I came across this article and the idea came to me.

So, I don't know much about controlling the OMP yet.
Do you think the OMP will have enough pressure to over come boost?
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Old 01-28-19, 03:52 AM
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Realistically you can run a Richard Sohn OMP Adapter and a reservoir of Water/Meth to pump into those factory OMP parts. Honestly, I'm surprised I've heard of no one doing this over the last 5+yrs.
Whoa whoa whoa

The FSM manual test for oil injection pump output was something like 2cc in 6 minutes at 2,000rpm on the old carby rotaries if I remember correctly and that amount has gone down and down with tighter emissions standards.

You are going to have to be injecting pure T.E.L. for that to have any affect on octane rating of fuel.
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