25.7 PSI on PUMP... AUXILIARY INJECTION RULES
12-20-06, 07:46 AM
#1
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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25.7 PSI on PUMP... AUXILIARY INJECTION RULES
while my car is apart for the wisconsin winter good buddy Brian Caine is hard at the AI tuning process in sunny texas.
after working through the usual problems, er issues, BDC has his car back on the roads terrorizing the wimmen and children.
as you may know BDC has his own tuning blog on another site and has just posted a Haltec log showing 25.7 PSI boost. there's a video too.
hold on to your hat...
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...d=1#post555586
no knock, 1300 EGTs.... BDC is targeting some dyno time in Jan.
how fast would your car be at 26 PSI?
better get on the AI Train for 07.
howard coleman
after working through the usual problems, er issues, BDC has his car back on the roads terrorizing the wimmen and children.
as you may know BDC has his own tuning blog on another site and has just posted a Haltec log showing 25.7 PSI boost. there's a video too.
hold on to your hat...
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...d=1#post555586
no knock, 1300 EGTs.... BDC is targeting some dyno time in Jan.
how fast would your car be at 26 PSI?
better get on the AI Train for 07.
howard coleman
12-24-06, 07:55 AM
#2
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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the thread is about AI, and AI includes water and alcohol, allowing us to run 20 plus psi on the street.
i started the thread to draw attention to what Brain is accomplishing right now.
he is actually doing it and posting his logs.
when was the last time YOU ran 26 psi on pump?
i am just trying to SELL AI to the majority of readers who haven't gotten into it to date.
the comments we ALL look forward to reading in this section are positive, helpful and objective.
that's the way it is going to be in this section as long as i am a moderator.
respectfully,
howard coleman
i started the thread to draw attention to what Brain is accomplishing right now.
he is actually doing it and posting his logs.
when was the last time YOU ran 26 psi on pump?
i am just trying to SELL AI to the majority of readers who haven't gotten into it to date.
the comments we ALL look forward to reading in this section are positive, helpful and objective.
that's the way it is going to be in this section as long as i am a moderator.
respectfully,
howard coleman
12-25-06, 02:26 PM
#4
Originally Posted by enzo250
tell me about it...
If i do say something most will disagree with what i say anyway so why bother..
what do i know anyway.....
If i do say something most will disagree with what i say anyway so why bother..
what do i know anyway.....
and trust me, when its done there'll be no reason to stay quiet on the internet
i understand you guys not wanting to 'fight' on the net, but theres no need to fight when theres dyno sheets and timeslips to PROVE what were talking about.
sorry for going left here howard, i just had to comment. keep up the hard work
12-25-06, 03:25 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by howard coleman
the thread is about AI, and AI includes water and alcohol, allowing us to run 20 plus psi on the street.
i started the thread to draw attention to what Brain is accomplishing right now.
he is actually doing it and posting his logs.
when was the last time YOU ran 26 psi on pump?
howard coleman
i started the thread to draw attention to what Brain is accomplishing right now.
he is actually doing it and posting his logs.
when was the last time YOU ran 26 psi on pump?
howard coleman
It's like me filling 30% of C16 race gas and 70% of 93 octane and claim I'm on pump gas !!!! -- hehe, I actually would have been safer :-)
Merry Christmas to everyone,
JD
12-25-06, 04:07 PM
#7
Originally Posted by enzo250
tell me about it...
If i do say something most will disagree with what i say anyway so why bother..
what do i know anyway.....
If i do say something most will disagree with what i say anyway so why bother..
what do i know anyway.....
Trending Topics
12-25-06, 06:57 PM
#9
Originally Posted by J-Rat
wow... I thought the arguing was over...
Oh well, FYI I have pushed to 490 RWHP on alchy..
Oh well, FYI I have pushed to 490 RWHP on alchy..
No one is arguing. Just stating facts.
JD hit it on the nail though.
12-25-06, 07:06 PM
#10
Originally Posted by crispeed
Well congrats.
No one is arguing. Just stating facts.
JD hit it on the nail though.
No one is arguing. Just stating facts.
JD hit it on the nail though.
Last edited by J-Rat; 12-25-06 at 07:14 PM.
12-25-06, 07:17 PM
#11
Originally Posted by J-Rat
Gotcha.. I figure he is prob right. But thanks for the compliment. Coming from you thats a big deal.
The way I see it is that if someone deserves credit for their accomplisments then they will get it no matter how small or huge it is. Success cannot be measured by the task. It's the end result that matters. The more people out there pushing the envelope for the better deserves a lot of credit. Not everyone have the ***** to do that. They prefer to sit behind their keyboards and wait to jump on the bandwagon of others and take the credit for doing so or like the majority just shoot down your accomplishments because they could not acheived the same good results as you have.
Kepp up the good work!
12-30-06, 12:20 PM
#14
12-30-06, 04:39 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by BDC
Heading to the dyno today. Will be back with some results, logs, and hopefully good sheets. Wish me luck.
B
B
Sorry about yesterday.. I just had no way to get out there (it's hard to bum rides :/). I tried to give ya a call, I guess I'll catch you at some point tonight.
Let's see some good sheets!
12-30-06, 05:18 PM
#16
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
WI true pump fuel *only* car
WI car 
Originally Posted by frode
Build is more or less complete for now. Just some small bits and pieces here and there left. Bought the car in the spring 2003, and have worked on and off on it since.
The 2-color scheme was flashy in the 80's I guess. The car had been sitting outside for a 6-7 years under 1 meter of snow in the winter. Previous owner felt pity for it and took it into the garage for the last 5 before I bought it. A bit of rust, but nothing some fresh metal and a welder could fix. Right side was a quick fix. Left side took some time.
Old engine setup was ****. Some dumbass buildt the 12A using a 12AT centerplate (tiny ports), rotors didnt match counterweights/flywheel. Steel apex seals in the front chamber and carbon in the back. Just a POS. Fed through a Dellorto DHLA 45 sitting on a 2-piece Racing Beat sidedraft manifold.
I got is started once, and had to hold it at 4000 rpm to keep it running.
Now the setup is this:
S5 13BT Streetported
Xtreme Rotaries 10mm stud kit
Weber jets in the e-shaft
Remote oil-filter
Oil loop line for oiling the front bearing
Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel
Tilton 2-disc "Rally" clutch
Tilton hydraulic releasebearing in the bellhousing
Turbonetics T-66 sitting on a custom 321 divided manifold
Boost controlled by a Tial 44mm wastegate
Custom intercooler
2.5" piping before intercooler and 3" after
Cheap-*** Ebay waterinjection kit (Exhaust temps dropped 100c with this) Simple on/off system. Nothing fancy.
Controlled by Autronic SM-2
Spark through Autronic 500R 4ch CDI and 4 Crane Cams LX92 coils
Fuel fed through 4 1680cc injectors
Carter gold into the swirl pot and
Aeromotive A1000 to the front
Aeromotive Fuel Press Regulator
580bhp@flywheel on 1.7 bar boost on pump fuel & EGT 100deg C less with WI
PWR Radiator and Oil cooler
S5 Turbo gearbox and Toyota Van rearend (4.375:1 and welded centre)
A quick shot of the outside, nothing special here. Just a clean S1 sitting on 17"s.
Pondering about an IDA setup for the intake, and I want to get rid of the 90 degree silicon couplers. I think straight couplers and bends in the tubing is the way to go.
The 2-color scheme was flashy in the 80's I guess. The car had been sitting outside for a 6-7 years under 1 meter of snow in the winter. Previous owner felt pity for it and took it into the garage for the last 5 before I bought it. A bit of rust, but nothing some fresh metal and a welder could fix. Right side was a quick fix. Left side took some time.
Old engine setup was ****. Some dumbass buildt the 12A using a 12AT centerplate (tiny ports), rotors didnt match counterweights/flywheel. Steel apex seals in the front chamber and carbon in the back. Just a POS. Fed through a Dellorto DHLA 45 sitting on a 2-piece Racing Beat sidedraft manifold.
I got is started once, and had to hold it at 4000 rpm to keep it running.
Now the setup is this:
S5 13BT Streetported
Xtreme Rotaries 10mm stud kit
Weber jets in the e-shaft
Remote oil-filter
Oil loop line for oiling the front bearing
Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel
Tilton 2-disc "Rally" clutch
Tilton hydraulic releasebearing in the bellhousing
Turbonetics T-66 sitting on a custom 321 divided manifold
Boost controlled by a Tial 44mm wastegate
Custom intercooler
2.5" piping before intercooler and 3" after
Cheap-*** Ebay waterinjection kit (Exhaust temps dropped 100c with this
) Simple on/off system. Nothing fancy.Controlled by Autronic SM-2
Spark through Autronic 500R 4ch CDI and 4 Crane Cams LX92 coils
Fuel fed through 4 1680cc injectors
Carter gold into the swirl pot and
Aeromotive A1000 to the front
Aeromotive Fuel Press Regulator
580bhp@flywheel on 1.7 bar boost on pump fuel & EGT 100deg C less with WI
PWR Radiator and Oil cooler
S5 Turbo gearbox and Toyota Van rearend (4.375:1 and welded centre)
A quick shot of the outside, nothing special here. Just a clean S1 sitting on 17"s.
Pondering about an IDA setup for the intake, and I want to get rid of the 90 degree silicon couplers. I think straight couplers and bends in the tubing is the way to go.
12-31-06, 05:39 AM
#19
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AI Battle
I did dyno 580hp at the flwheel on a high quality DTS engine dyno.
Boost was set to 1.9 bar (27.5 PSI), and I boosted 1.9 until 5800 rpm where the boost started to drop. Peak HP was at 7500 rpm and boost had dropped to 1.7 bar (~25 PSI). Boost controller was only conected to the bottom fitting on the wastegate. I guess it wouldnt drop if I had pressure on the top fitting too.
EGT dropped 100C when activating the system. It's a simple system I got from ebay spraying distilled water. It consists of the usual Shurflo pump, solenoid valve and the nozzle. I added some -4 line as I didnt like the plastic tubing that came with it. Nozzle is spraying just before the throttlebody. I also ditched the included pressure switch and used one of my Autronic's on/off outputs instead (conditions are rpm and manifold pressure).
Here's a shot of the engine sitting on the dyno
I do not have the dyno sheets scanned. But I have them in front of me.
At peak HP i have 580bhp and 557nm of torque
Boost is 1.7 bar and backpressure in the manifold is 2.1 bar. EGT is 836 in the front runner and 852C in the rear runner.
1300F (~700C) like BDC got sounds really low... Hiow much advance are you guys running? At peak hp I dont think I got more than around 13 degrees. I remember increasing by 2 degrees only gave 4 hp so I rather safed it there.
Happy new year!
Frode
Boost was set to 1.9 bar (27.5 PSI), and I boosted 1.9 until 5800 rpm where the boost started to drop. Peak HP was at 7500 rpm and boost had dropped to 1.7 bar (~25 PSI). Boost controller was only conected to the bottom fitting on the wastegate. I guess it wouldnt drop if I had pressure on the top fitting too.
EGT dropped 100C when activating the system. It's a simple system I got from ebay spraying distilled water. It consists of the usual Shurflo pump, solenoid valve and the nozzle. I added some -4 line as I didnt like the plastic tubing that came with it. Nozzle is spraying just before the throttlebody. I also ditched the included pressure switch and used one of my Autronic's on/off outputs instead (conditions are rpm and manifold pressure).
Here's a shot of the engine sitting on the dyno
I do not have the dyno sheets scanned. But I have them in front of me.
At peak HP i have 580bhp and 557nm of torque
Boost is 1.7 bar and backpressure in the manifold is 2.1 bar. EGT is 836 in the front runner and 852C in the rear runner.
1300F (~700C) like BDC got sounds really low... Hiow much advance are you guys running? At peak hp I dont think I got more than around 13 degrees. I remember increasing by 2 degrees only gave 4 hp so I rather safed it there.
Happy new year!
Frode
12-31-06, 09:21 AM
#21
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
just a clarification re this thread...
the "AI" title refers to AUXILIARY INJECTION NOT ALCOHOL INJECTION.
this section shall remain agnostic w regard to what works better.
both have been proven to work and as long as i am involved here i will delete any statements/posts that speak to the contrary.
i am very interested to see 07 play out and to see the results of all who are AI participants. there is still alot to learn. many are just starting out and some have had extensive experience. obviously the purpose of this section is to be of help to all rotary guys.
i appreciate learning about Frode's efforts. let's have more info... what's the nozzle size... let's see a dyno sheet.
the concept here is to learn and share. there's a huge amount of benefit from AI and it actually is not that complicated.
so let's turn the page on all this and accomplish something positive here.
howard coleman
the "AI" title refers to AUXILIARY INJECTION NOT ALCOHOL INJECTION.
this section shall remain agnostic w regard to what works better.
both have been proven to work and as long as i am involved here i will delete any statements/posts that speak to the contrary.
i am very interested to see 07 play out and to see the results of all who are AI participants. there is still alot to learn. many are just starting out and some have had extensive experience. obviously the purpose of this section is to be of help to all rotary guys.
i appreciate learning about Frode's efforts. let's have more info... what's the nozzle size... let's see a dyno sheet.
the concept here is to learn and share. there's a huge amount of benefit from AI and it actually is not that complicated.
so let's turn the page on all this and accomplish something positive here.
howard coleman
12-31-06, 12:24 PM
#22
Although those threads regarding the WI cars are good, lets keep in mind that the fantastic numbers are BHP, so there is NO drive loss assumed. If you assume about 17 ish drive loss, that equates to around 480 wheel HP and about 330 ish pound feet of torque, very respectable although quite a large gap in torque versus HP...
Furthermore, there is no mention of the octane of fuel used on the tests except by Rice Racing. Let the owner please inform us of the octane used during the tests.
Thanks!
Furthermore, there is no mention of the octane of fuel used on the tests except by Rice Racing. Let the owner please inform us of the octane used during the tests.
Thanks!
Last edited by J-Rat; 12-31-06 at 12:33 PM.
12-31-06, 02:01 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by J-Rat
Although those threads regarding the WI cars are good, lets keep in mind that the fantastic numbers are BHP, so there is NO drive loss assumed. If you assume about 17 ish drive loss, that equates to around 480 wheel HP and about 330 ish pound feet of torque, very respectable although quite a large gap in torque versus HP...
Furthermore, there is no mention of the octane of fuel used on the tests except by Rice Racing. Let the owner please inform us of the octane used during the tests.
Thanks!
Furthermore, there is no mention of the octane of fuel used on the tests except by Rice Racing. Let the owner please inform us of the octane used during the tests.
Thanks!
When converting I get 600nm equals 443 ft-lbf.
http://unit-converter.org/conversion.php?c_id=8&lang=en
Fuel used where 98 octane (RON) pump fuel from Shell.
Over there you rate your fuel as RON+MON, you can subtract 4-5 points from my octane rating to get a rating to compare with. Guess its somewhere around your 93 octane premium.
Happy new year!
12-31-06, 02:47 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by BDC
Heading to the dyno today. Will be back with some results, logs, and hopefully good sheets. Wish me luck.
Originally Posted by BNA_ELLIS
So what happened??
http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...=50682&page=12
He blew it up and he's blaming it on bad pump gas !!!!
Originally Posted by BDC
I still need to figure out why it knocked. I don't know why, but my two theories are that I may've just gotten a bad tank of gas and not being diligent about getting my 93 from a good, reputable station like Shell or Mobil, or I may've just advanced the spark too aggressively. Oh well.
Full boost by 5krpm w/ a 60-1 turbo ???? why so late ???
Sorry but I'm not impressed with a HBP motor, 30%methanol and 24psi.
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE !!!!
JD
12-31-06, 03:11 PM
#25
something is definitely wrong with his setup, if you look at his datalog his injector Ms is the same at 23.1PSI(6460RPMs) boost and at 24.2PSI(6900RPMs) where it probably finally gave up. faulty wideband or faulty MAP? could be faulty tuning but who knows, the video is poor quality so i couldn't hear the tone of the engine or misfiring to even speculate.
i wouldn't consider it blown though, the rear iron can be swapped out in a matter of a few hours.
i wouldn't consider it blown though, the rear iron can be swapped out in a matter of a few hours.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-31-06 at 03:19 PM.