Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

^ right, I also feel that the blocks can handle only a certain amount of BMEP, and when you go over that point whether it be pre-ignition/knock at lower power levels, or perfectly stable combustion at higher power levels (very unlikely to happen!) there is a limit, and once you cross it it's only a matter of time before something fails, dented rotors, broken apex seals, or cracked blocks.

Problem is we always try to simplify it by saying that W timing + X fuel + Y port + Z boost = safe, but there are so many factors that influence the combustion that we don't fully understand, like arghx's point about electrode material and its strange effects on alcohol fuels. There is always a bigger picture, but how deep you want to dig into it is up to you as far as what's happening in our combustion chambers. Most often it's simpler just copying someone's setup that is successful and hoping for the best!

patman

iTrader: (3)

One thing that hasnt been mentioned here is that tolulene is extremely hazardous to your health, it is carcinogenic and tends to absorb into your skin when touched. I also don't know what kind of harmful exhaust emissions it would cause (if any), but the health risk is enough for me not to be too interested.

Liborek

Forget boost, all engine studies I have seen which concerned structural limits, always dealed with peak combustion pressures. Thing is that different combinations and tuning parameters shift relation between peak pressures and BMEP. For example, high compression ratio engines work with very high peak pressures, this would limit absolute BMEP (torque) with given hardware limitation. You could decrease CR which will lower efficiency, but due to substantially lower peak pressures, it will allow for higher boost pressure, higher overall airflow and higher BMEP - power. Similar thing applies to timing, higher boost level with retarded timing allows more power than lower boost level with timing pushed almost to knock threshold. Of course, there's a penalty in higher air and fuel consumption and high EGT's and as one would expect, there are limits on both sides.

Nothing to add

junito1

Make it happen! Its the reason f1 turbo engines reached 5.5 bars in qualifying form.
Even though their toluene was a gel and required it running through exhaust to be heated or the car rather like.doodoo. It also had some additives. Also these Turbo f1 cars used about 1 to 2 ounces of h2o injection every lap If remember correctly

I also only have 1 e85 pump in town
This would be a great alternative.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

Toluene/Xylene is liquid at room temperature, not a gel... I know because I have a pail of it in my garage, and it's getting cold out here. They warmed it up to increase BSFC and help vaporization, which further helps make use of all the fuel. I see no problem with running Toluene at ambient temperature in our engines, because we are used to dealing with crazy wall wetting as it is, it just means you need to run richer AFR's (already do that...) in order to ensure safe-ish combustion

seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

So has anyone tried it yet??

junito1

My source is a f1 turbo era documentary. I don't know specifics on the fuel, but I clearly remember the narrator that it was basically a gel.

Edit.hehe. quick search in Google proves it was a gelled toluene. Not regular toluene
And Honda used the exhaust.to liquify it I'm pretty sure.

seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

the fumes are toxic, so I could see at some point some one trying to turn it to a gel(solid state) to avoid breathing in the fumes. Then heated before it was injected

here is a cool close up of the engine- The 1987 Cosworth GBA F1 turbo V6 engine in detail.

Clubuser

[QUOTE=Liborek;11227571]Forget boost, all engine studies I have seen which concerned structural limits, always dealed with peak combustion pressures. [QUOTE]

1st of all, I'd think before going off and pumping 62 psi of boost he/she has to be quite confident he/she has put together a block (and tuned) that will handle/produce max combustion psi at the intended boost. So, I ask, has a such combination @ 62 psi boost survived for more than a second? Hey, top fuel dragster's engines designed to handle insane pressures have been known to blow up in all directions @ ~ 50 psi boost.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

Think about it this way, do you think 20 psi on a stock-ported motor and 20 psi on a full-blown PP would net the same power?

So the question is, could a rotary engine producing 62 psi survive? I bet if you used ports smaller than TII primaries for all 4 intake ports and had renesis exhaust ports with essentially zero overlap, it would survive. But it wouldn't make an insane amount of power either, it would just be a silly idea. Boost is infinitely less relevant than mass flow, which is dependent on port timing, overlap, EMAP, etc. Why do people generally port their rotaries instead of just increasing the boost on stock-port motors to achieve a certain amount of power?

You will not see someone running 62psi of boost around here. I'm not sure why you're so set on that number, when it really isn't as relevant as saying 'I want a 1,500 hp 13B'


Edit: I just re-read that and realize I sound like a dick. That wasn't how I was trying to come off, but the point is that with rotaries 62 psi isn't either necessary or really feasible, because we are able to shift the powerband as easily as changing the porting configuration, or adding displacement to increase power. Every chamber in a rotary can only deal with so much pressure. I couldn't tell you what that limit is, but it seems to me that ~1,000 HP 13B's (or maybe a little bit more?) seem to be around the structural limits of these engines, and that even people running that kind of power tend to wear seals out fairly frequently (a little bit less with semi-pp or full PP). This is not coming from experience, so take it how you will.

junito1

Dude 1 of those turbo f1 engines( Renault maybe) did 5.5 bars (80.xx psi)in qualifying trim which was at least 2 laps of at least 1 1/2 minutes per lap. Sometimes they did 2 laps and then waited till their.time was beat and went ut and did a few more laps. So it is possible with the right fuel

Also mangus eclipse runs 86psi of boost in 2.0 4g63 block. Go evo engine!

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

^I meant to write rotary engine in my post, I edited it. I would kill for a late 80's Turbo F1 engine from any manufacturer!

You were totally right about the gel, I didn't realize there were different forms of Toluene. Did they use it because it was more dense? The F1 papers that I have talked about heating it using the cooling system to around 60* if I'm not mistaken.

junito1

Taking a guess.But could gel form contain more fuel per area and when liquified it takes up more space. So they could go further with 1 tank?

seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

Yes apparently they could get 30% more mileage with "gel".

Trots 88TII-" I didn't realize there were different forms of Toluene" There are different forums. But just like most any thing they have different states-Solid liquid gas. I am pretty sure it was cooled down till it turned into a gel/dense liquid. Then heated it to 70c and injected.

Also in liquid state it releases fumes that are intoxicating. That coupled with the 30% more fuel per volume = a winwin

So has any one tried this???

seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

O and I think it was Gerhard Berger's BMW powered Benetton that was the power house turbo f1 car.

bumpstart

used to make my own super fuel back in the 90's... street meets in my rx2 13bt. pretty sure ive mentioned it before...
..., toluene and / or xylene up to 30 % on 98 RON fuel

only went 30 % due to concerns for the fuel hose rubber
... but it still took toll on the fuel hoses ,, they dont deteriate straight away
,, but tend to pill up on the inside and block up the injectors screens and the fuel filter a few months down the track

i also knew about the lack of lubrication quality but didnt make any changes cause i have an OMP for that
.. subsequent use of total dry fuel ( propane ) has also confirmed the OMP or EOMP is up to the task without any issue

fairly sure it can also hurt some types of fuel pumps with wet windings by attacking the insulating varnish

always flush with normal unleaded if trying this in your street car

if i was building a competition vehicle to use this juice exclusively then there would be a case for total elimination of all buna rubber fuel components

seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

So unless the fuel system is setup for it. Don't do it.

bumpstart

you can get away with it.. but 30% is around the point where you will see long term deteriation of any older buna components.. in my rx2 that was the entire fuel system
if you flush then i think the issue could be controlled a bit better , but ultimately you should be thinking of making changes to a flex fuel capable hose material that wont fail

i would also be very wary using these with rochy/multech type injectors as these are known to have same issues as those pumps with vunerable winding insulation

seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

I think I will leave toluene in the 80's turbo f1's

doctorzaius

I can't believe it took over two pages for someone to mention this. Why on earth would you want to risk this stuff?

Clubuser

^ what additional harm could it add to the already amount of carciogens we smell, eat, and drink daily if properly handled?

doctorzaius

What constitutes proper handling? As far as I am concerned there are compounds where the only proper handling is basically no handling. I don't think this is one of them, but why take the risk?

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

It all comes down to perspective. People hear carcinogen and fill in the blanks themselves, just like Varsol.

Check out this list of Known and Probable Human Carcinogens I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot more items in the "Known Human Carcinogens" -Group 1: Carcinogenic to humans- that you have been/are regularly exposed to than items such as Toluene, listed under "National Toxicology Program 12th Report on Carcinogens
'Reasonably anticipated to be human carcinogens'"

Also listed under the same heading as Toluene are:
-Diesel exhaust particulates
-Glass wool fibers (inhalable)
-Lead and lead compounds (Yet they use leaded fuel in racing...)
-Naphthalene
-Nitromethane (Yet they use it in racing...)
-Urethane
-Ultraviolet Radiation A,B,C
All used quite commonly in many peoples' lives.

And again here: Solvents: All-Purpose Poisons

Quoted:
"Benzene, toluene, xylene and styrene are the cornerstones of the
petrochemical industry. They serve as the feedstock for the
manufacture of many other solvents, chemical intermediates,
dyes, explosives, and resins for the manufacture of plastics,
elastomers, and textiles. Many solvents contain benzene, toluene
and/or xylene in varying proportions.

Of these four large-volume chemicals, only benzene has been
clearly established as a human carcinogen. Benzene can cause
leukemia (cancer of the blood-forming cells) in exposed workers
and perhaps in others who have lesser exposures.

Based on studies of laboratory animals, styrene is a suspected
human carcinogen, but toluene and xylene fall in the "unknown"
category, chiefly because they have hardly been studied."


Make up your own mind after discovering facts, it took me all of 5 minutes. But don't go spouting bullshit on this forum like some self-righteous know-it-all. There are carcinogens all around us in the world, my point is it comes down to limiting exposure and using proper protection/common sense. I wouldn't discount Toluene/Xylene on its hazardous properties alone any more than I would C16, Nitromethane, sanding fiberglass, or walking outside on a sunny day.

patman

iTrader: (3)

I'm assuming this was directed at me? You are angry because I mentioned a completely relevant and pertinent point? You have no idea what my background is or what I know, and your "discovering facts" on google basically confirms what I said, and yet you still thought it was reasonable to accuse me of "spouting bullshit"?
Some days I wonder why I bother to spout my bullshit on here.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i like to suck on leaded race gas just for the lead.