rotor housings and E85
I know I'm late to this thread, but after over 10 years in this community I'm still trying to understand why "accelerated wear" of housings is considered a serious issue for heavily modified engines in 20+ year old cars. Considering the number of blown engines on this forum in general, lasting a couple years at several times the factory rated horsepower is a problem a lot of guys wish they had. They're not even running poorly at teardown.
Rotor housings are wear items. They were designed for 255/280 horsepower. Just pay the piper every couple years. No big deal.
Rotor housings are wear items. They were designed for 255/280 horsepower. Just pay the piper every couple years. No big deal.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
while i agree w you re the wear on uprated power engines as an upcost i suggest you revisit the post showing pictures contrasting the wear on my 500+ hp gas and meth AI w the E85 housings.
Old [Sch|F]ool
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,876
Likes: 575
From: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
Oh well. Say, did you know that you gan get 2 liter Ecoboost engines for as little as $500? Seems that Ford is putting them in everything under the sun and they don't break, so their junkyard value is slightly more than scrap. And Ford Motorsport sells a standalone engine controller. And the engine bolts up to Miata transmissions just fine.
Interesting as a case study but seems like the sample size is too small and the variable list too large to draw any definitive conclusions. I'd also lump rotor housings into the wear items category until they can be replated. Doesn't mean their use should be restricted.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,814
Likes: 655
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
I sell to surgeons in an Operating Room environment and if I only quoted case studies to convince them to change their practice and habit, they'd kick me out without an invitation back
Thanks to Peejay for the Racing Beat factoid on such a concentrated premix ratio for turbo 13B's in a racing environment. Food for thought indeed........
Originally Posted by mannykiller
I'll be using Redline this season. Here is a pic of their Gasoline Pre-mix. Huge difference in viscosity on first look....especially compared to Benol and Motul. The Redline stuff isn't nearly as thick. The Alcohol Safe Pre-Mix is on the way...I'll post pics of the stuff when I get it.
It seems with forums it's very easy for conclusions to be painted certain way, quickly gain popularity, and then drastically change direction only to repeat the same process again. Last year at this time all I was reading on here was how E85 is the divine answer to all our rotary problems.
While this is good information, and enough to raise concern, more data is needed before rushing to crucify E85 as a rotor housing killer.
Most of all, I'm just happy to see some activity in here...I stopped checking this forum a while back due to lack of new content. So kuddos to HC for sparking an interesting topic.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,279
Likes: 728
From: Florence, Alabama
"I'll be using Redline this season. Here is a pic of their Gasoline Pre-mix. Huge difference in viscosity on first look....especially compared to Benol and Motul. The Redline stuff isn't nearly as thick. The Alcohol Safe Pre-Mix is on the way..."
two of the three scored housings were using that very premix:
Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil.
after doing some research it was my top choice.
there have been two comments re small sample size. while i didn't sell to surgeons in "Operating Rooms" i was a successful investment analyst/advisor for 37 years and as such no stranger to statistics.
small sample size (three) did not preclude me from sharing a potential issue w alcohol.
i am pretty sure that anyone reading this thread is capable of understanding the statistics here and isn't in need of guidance.
the fact that three different apex seal brands and two different premixes were involved adds significance.
there may very well be a fix here, i am not ruling it out. ideally, additional posts might focus on something constructive rather than stating the obvious.
as far as high hp rotaries being a continuous maintenance item... of course however the wear on the housings in one season compared to the (total lack of) wear on my 4 year gas-meth AI housings should draw some interest.
two of the three scored housings were using that very premix:
Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil.
after doing some research it was my top choice.
there have been two comments re small sample size. while i didn't sell to surgeons in "Operating Rooms" i was a successful investment analyst/advisor for 37 years and as such no stranger to statistics.
small sample size (three) did not preclude me from sharing a potential issue w alcohol.
i am pretty sure that anyone reading this thread is capable of understanding the statistics here and isn't in need of guidance.
the fact that three different apex seal brands and two different premixes were involved adds significance.
there may very well be a fix here, i am not ruling it out. ideally, additional posts might focus on something constructive rather than stating the obvious.
as far as high hp rotaries being a continuous maintenance item... of course however the wear on the housings in one season compared to the (total lack of) wear on my 4 year gas-meth AI housings should draw some interest.
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 234
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From: NZ
motul micro 2t is gaining big popularity here in NZ for any ethanol blend over 10%. it is used for alcohol fuels. methanol and nitro methane. Greenbrothers have been using it for a few seasons now on various race cars that see annual and bi annual refreshes. it is marketed toward nitro model cars etc.
Originally Posted by Rotate86
motul micro 2t is gaining big popularity here in NZ...
I still have not seen any real good or solids numbers for mixing ratios. And maybe E85 hasn't been in the game long enough for enough people to experiment with, with different brands of oils and different brand of Apex seals.
I will say for this season, witch is coming up fast for us up in the north. Unless other information is brought to the table. I will be using
Amsoil Dominatior w/ 91 octane.
2oz/1gallon mixture
(Has been proven in the past for me)
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=TDRQT-EA
And Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol w/ E85
When I'm at the track.
3oz/1gallon
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=91&pcid=16
My car will be roughly 500+whp. With some aggressive driving. The engine is fresh so I do not know that will it come apart next winter for an inspection. But it will be watched closely.
I will say for this season, witch is coming up fast for us up in the north. Unless other information is brought to the table. I will be using
Amsoil Dominatior w/ 91 octane.
2oz/1gallon mixture
(Has been proven in the past for me)
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=TDRQT-EA
And Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol w/ E85
When I'm at the track.
3oz/1gallon
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=91&pcid=16
My car will be roughly 500+whp. With some aggressive driving. The engine is fresh so I do not know that will it come apart next winter for an inspection. But it will be watched closely.
Last edited by Schartz; Mar 8, 2016 at 05:50 PM.
Some interesting technical information pages and excerpts found on the Alkydigger dot net site:
Note they refer to 'alcohol' often, which I construe to mean methanol, unless otherwise mentioned. (I suppose it could mean any saturated carbon with an -OH group attached.)
My thoughts on a couple of related things:
Alcohol is a powerful solvent to mineral class aka petroleum oils (and all oil products of similar molecular structure including synths). Alcohol can dissolve or dilute these oils upon contact; therefore, a different type of substance is required to lubricate and/or to prime a surface to hold a lubricating agent when using an alcohol fuel. Castor oil, apparently the oil of choice for use with alcohols, is a vegetable oil--a triglyceride--and an entirely different molecule than typical engine oils; one which does not react with alcohol in the same manner as mineral type oils do. The short story, iirc, is that alcohols and organic acids join to form esters. This may be in part responsible for the gummy deposits that form after extended use of a castor oil lubricant. I suspect it may be in evidence in the pics Howard posted above. Sniff tests are indicated to characterize the odor of the depicted rotors which might give some clue as to the culprit.
Second point: given alcohols' solvent action as outlined above, does this render the OMP and the usual engine oil injection ineffectual for lubrication when using alcohol fuels? And if so, to what extent?
Final comment: This is centered around engine operating temps and what is discussed in the quoted paragraph #5 above. In my observation, many, if not most, want to operate their engines too cold. Having considerable experience with engine dynos (for the purpose of racing), I can unequivocally say that virtually every engine I have seen or dynoed has performed the best with water temps around 212deg F and oil temps about 225-ish deg F --given constant IATs and gasoline as the fuel. I've also noticed that engines with aluminum components need slightly more heat in them to maintain the same power output. This may seem way too hot to many folks, especially those that do everything in their power to hold temps to a minimum, but it is where engines consistently make the most power, all else being equal. Rotary engines are not exempt from these effects either; the caveat being that care must be exercised to prevent overheating the spark plug boss/land area under sustained high load conditions.
My own take away, without getting too theoretical on those reading this, is to maintain temps as close to the proven ideals as is possible and to keep temp swings to a minimum under the various operating conditions encountered. The idea of the latter point is to reduce the cyclic thermal stresses on the engine assembly over time. This is where a good cooling system (e.g., ducted v-mount) shows its oats. One can maintain the engine at closer to optimum temps without having to resort to artificially low operating temps to prevent overheating. Consistently operating an engine under temp will significantly accelerate wear, regardless of fuel.
Note they refer to 'alcohol' often, which I construe to mean methanol, unless otherwise mentioned. (I suppose it could mean any saturated carbon with an -OH group attached.)
EFFECTS OF ALCOHOL VS GASOLINE AND E-85
....Alcohol has a natural abrasive quality which takes a much quicker toll on rings, valve stems, cylinders, fuel pumps, and bearings. Using top end lube, or castor oil, will substantially reduce the ill effects. Gasoline is a petroleum product so it actually lubes as it goes. You will have to experiment with how much more often to change your oil and what kind of oil to use. Typically, you will get about twice as many runs on gasoline as alcohol. Blown engines will experience even quicker dilution of the oil with alcohol since it is being forced into the crankcase by cylinder pressures which are two times that of naturally aspirated engines. Using an additive like Lucas can be very beneficial. ....
....Alcohol has a natural abrasive quality which takes a much quicker toll on rings, valve stems, cylinders, fuel pumps, and bearings. Using top end lube, or castor oil, will substantially reduce the ill effects. Gasoline is a petroleum product so it actually lubes as it goes. You will have to experiment with how much more often to change your oil and what kind of oil to use. Typically, you will get about twice as many runs on gasoline as alcohol. Blown engines will experience even quicker dilution of the oil with alcohol since it is being forced into the crankcase by cylinder pressures which are two times that of naturally aspirated engines. Using an additive like Lucas can be very beneficial. ....
Some Interesting & Useful Knowledge About Alcohol vs. Gasoline
....
--------------------- Potential negatives and useful facts -----------------------
1. Methanol is highly corrosive and has no lubricating qualities so you must use an additive that will protect your fuel system and cylinders from being eaten up. There are many additives more commonly preferred to as top lube. They also come in different scents so your exhaust can smell like cherry, Strawberry, Vanilla etc.. . Castor oil is the primary ingredient in top end lube, if you can't obtain top lube, use 12 oz of Castor Oil in a drum of methanol.
....
5. If you intend to run methanol, get your mindset changed about temperature. You can affect the HP output by + 10%-20% by simply bringing the engine to an optimum temperature. Generally the hotter the combustion chamber, the more power you will see, thus better ET or Lap time. Combustion temperatures of 500-750 degrees are good for complete combustion and thermal efficiency. Max EGT of 1100-1150 is about as much as you will see at the end of a run with methanol, and about 1300 with gasoline. At 3000 rpm you should see 550-650 F near the head area of the header, if not, you should consider leaning it out some to try and achieve that temp. At this point you can almost be assured that the combustion chamber is hot enough to produce maximum HP for your setup. If you insist on making the run with an engine temp of 120-140 F , you are wasting a run. WARM UP your engine before you get to the starting line, or suffer a substantial loss of ET. A popular water temperature for Sprint Car racers is 210 F . A lot of drag racers seem to be scared of 180 degrees F, but at that point the oil is just barely warm.
....
--------------------- Potential negatives and useful facts -----------------------
1. Methanol is highly corrosive and has no lubricating qualities so you must use an additive that will protect your fuel system and cylinders from being eaten up. There are many additives more commonly preferred to as top lube. They also come in different scents so your exhaust can smell like cherry, Strawberry, Vanilla etc.. . Castor oil is the primary ingredient in top end lube, if you can't obtain top lube, use 12 oz of Castor Oil in a drum of methanol.
....
5. If you intend to run methanol, get your mindset changed about temperature. You can affect the HP output by + 10%-20% by simply bringing the engine to an optimum temperature. Generally the hotter the combustion chamber, the more power you will see, thus better ET or Lap time. Combustion temperatures of 500-750 degrees are good for complete combustion and thermal efficiency. Max EGT of 1100-1150 is about as much as you will see at the end of a run with methanol, and about 1300 with gasoline. At 3000 rpm you should see 550-650 F near the head area of the header, if not, you should consider leaning it out some to try and achieve that temp. At this point you can almost be assured that the combustion chamber is hot enough to produce maximum HP for your setup. If you insist on making the run with an engine temp of 120-140 F , you are wasting a run. WARM UP your engine before you get to the starting line, or suffer a substantial loss of ET. A popular water temperature for Sprint Car racers is 210 F . A lot of drag racers seem to be scared of 180 degrees F, but at that point the oil is just barely warm.
My thoughts on a couple of related things:
Alcohol is a powerful solvent to mineral class aka petroleum oils (and all oil products of similar molecular structure including synths). Alcohol can dissolve or dilute these oils upon contact; therefore, a different type of substance is required to lubricate and/or to prime a surface to hold a lubricating agent when using an alcohol fuel. Castor oil, apparently the oil of choice for use with alcohols, is a vegetable oil--a triglyceride--and an entirely different molecule than typical engine oils; one which does not react with alcohol in the same manner as mineral type oils do. The short story, iirc, is that alcohols and organic acids join to form esters. This may be in part responsible for the gummy deposits that form after extended use of a castor oil lubricant. I suspect it may be in evidence in the pics Howard posted above. Sniff tests are indicated to characterize the odor of the depicted rotors which might give some clue as to the culprit.
Second point: given alcohols' solvent action as outlined above, does this render the OMP and the usual engine oil injection ineffectual for lubrication when using alcohol fuels? And if so, to what extent?
Final comment: This is centered around engine operating temps and what is discussed in the quoted paragraph #5 above. In my observation, many, if not most, want to operate their engines too cold. Having considerable experience with engine dynos (for the purpose of racing), I can unequivocally say that virtually every engine I have seen or dynoed has performed the best with water temps around 212deg F and oil temps about 225-ish deg F --given constant IATs and gasoline as the fuel. I've also noticed that engines with aluminum components need slightly more heat in them to maintain the same power output. This may seem way too hot to many folks, especially those that do everything in their power to hold temps to a minimum, but it is where engines consistently make the most power, all else being equal. Rotary engines are not exempt from these effects either; the caveat being that care must be exercised to prevent overheating the spark plug boss/land area under sustained high load conditions.
My own take away, without getting too theoretical on those reading this, is to maintain temps as close to the proven ideals as is possible and to keep temp swings to a minimum under the various operating conditions encountered. The idea of the latter point is to reduce the cyclic thermal stresses on the engine assembly over time. This is where a good cooling system (e.g., ducted v-mount) shows its oats. One can maintain the engine at closer to optimum temps without having to resort to artificially low operating temps to prevent overheating. Consistently operating an engine under temp will significantly accelerate wear, regardless of fuel.
"I'll be using Redline this season. Here is a pic of their Gasoline Pre-mix. Huge difference in viscosity on first look....especially compared to Benol and Motul. The Redline stuff isn't nearly as thick. The Alcohol Safe Pre-Mix is on the way..."
two of the three scored housings were using that very premix:
Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil.
after doing some research it was my top choice.
there have been two comments re small sample size. while i didn't sell to surgeons in "Operating Rooms" i was a successful investment analyst/advisor for 37 years and as such no stranger to statistics.
small sample size (three) did not preclude me from sharing a potential issue w alcohol.
i am pretty sure that anyone reading this thread is capable of understanding the statistics here and isn't in need of guidance.
the fact that three different apex seal brands and two different premixes were involved adds significance.
there may very well be a fix here, i am not ruling it out. ideally, additional posts might focus on something constructive rather than stating the obvious.
as far as high hp rotaries being a continuous maintenance item... of course however the wear on the housings in one season compared to the (total lack of) wear on my 4 year gas-meth AI housings should draw some interest.
two of the three scored housings were using that very premix:
Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil.
after doing some research it was my top choice.
there have been two comments re small sample size. while i didn't sell to surgeons in "Operating Rooms" i was a successful investment analyst/advisor for 37 years and as such no stranger to statistics.
small sample size (three) did not preclude me from sharing a potential issue w alcohol.
i am pretty sure that anyone reading this thread is capable of understanding the statistics here and isn't in need of guidance.
the fact that three different apex seal brands and two different premixes were involved adds significance.
there may very well be a fix here, i am not ruling it out. ideally, additional posts might focus on something constructive rather than stating the obvious.
as far as high hp rotaries being a continuous maintenance item... of course however the wear on the housings in one season compared to the (total lack of) wear on my 4 year gas-meth AI housings should draw some interest.
Curious, anyone with a 2cyl OMP direct feed adapter ever consider mixing graphite powder to the oil? Wondering if this would help with incompatable seals.
Not graphite! Maybe Molybdenum - that is what Idemitsu add to their rotary engine oil, but that was for gasoline fueled rotary engines
As soon as I posted the above, I did a little research. Apparently the Krex brand is pretty good stuff. I open my 20b all the time so I'm not afraid to add this stuff to the 2cyl reservior for my OMP adapter after putting in RA apex seals. I'm not so much concerned about the sump oil. I was shocked at all the positive Amazon reviews.
I opened two of our shop car engines running oem seals running 31 to 33 psi on e85(klotz 1 oz ). Both looked perfect inside with zero buildup, and no need to hone housing.
We opened an e85 engine tonight( seals stuck from rust and running out of oil.) Rotors are clean, but housings have same wear as 1st page photos. Aftermarket seals. Same wear as another engine we opened last week on gas only( different seal brand).
We opened an e85 engine tonight( seals stuck from rust and running out of oil.) Rotors are clean, but housings have same wear as 1st page photos. Aftermarket seals. Same wear as another engine we opened last week on gas only( different seal brand).
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 912
Likes: 1
From: Norway
Howars, i have run E85 for 5 years. Not the amount of milage these engines have seen. Had brand new housings and nrs ceramics put into it. When i inspected the rotorhousings this winter during the exhaust ports they still looked like brand new. I think it could be some kind og problem with the fuel or oil
Not mix good enough. But it could be almost anything. Most ppl i know that run e85 have mint condition engines.
Now that e85 is gone, i have had to go back to pump fuel end water/merh injection
Was premixing 1 liter pr 100 liter fuel. So 1:100 mix.
Not mix good enough. But it could be almost anything. Most ppl i know that run e85 have mint condition engines.
Now that e85 is gone, i have had to go back to pump fuel end water/merh injection
Was premixing 1 liter pr 100 liter fuel. So 1:100 mix.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,666
Likes: 88
From: San Jose, CA
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 65
Likes: 9
From: Tassie
Yeah i too would like to see and hear some more updated new on this, I’m still always off from getting my engine in and running, but it helps in getting the right bits i need if i decide to go e85 or pump and A/I
krem
krem
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: France
In for an update too guys. Time has passed, we should more data to resume this discussion now.
FWIW, i ran pump e85 in my Volvo 4-banger for the last year (daily driver). No premix obviously. After a year i had gunk deposits on the tip of each injector. Everything still ran well but i could see a disaster happening if i kept running ethanol everyday.
Switched to a tank of 95 (what we got here in France). Deposits disappeared.
I have a full flex fuel setup so now i run petrol on a daily basis, and when i know i will need all the power i can get (400hp at 1.65bar boost), i switch to ethanol. Which is never north of 70% ethanol by the way. And more like 57% in winter.
FWIW, i ran pump e85 in my Volvo 4-banger for the last year (daily driver). No premix obviously. After a year i had gunk deposits on the tip of each injector. Everything still ran well but i could see a disaster happening if i kept running ethanol everyday.
Switched to a tank of 95 (what we got here in France). Deposits disappeared.
I have a full flex fuel setup so now i run petrol on a daily basis, and when i know i will need all the power i can get (400hp at 1.65bar boost), i switch to ethanol. Which is never north of 70% ethanol by the way. And more like 57% in winter.