Fuel System Req's for 500hp with E85
02-02-10, 10:56 AM
#1
Fuel System Req's for 500hp with E85
I have a
single turbo Garrett T04S with a T3 hotside
1000/2225 yaw power injectors
single bosch 044 pump
I tuned it up to 12 lbs and got 355ish hp. We bumped it up to 17lbs and started running out of fuel. Looking at redoing the fuel system at AZRR and looking for some input on fuel req's to hit 500hp.
Running 12 lbs for day to day
17lbs when i want to have fun
24-26lbs just for the track or when i need the power.
I have all the supporting mods just need to know the specifics on the fuel system. Car is killing me and i want this done right the first time. Thanks for any input and if you need any more specifics then just ask.
single turbo Garrett T04S with a T3 hotside
1000/2225 yaw power injectors
single bosch 044 pump
I tuned it up to 12 lbs and got 355ish hp. We bumped it up to 17lbs and started running out of fuel. Looking at redoing the fuel system at AZRR and looking for some input on fuel req's to hit 500hp.
Running 12 lbs for day to day
17lbs when i want to have fun
24-26lbs just for the track or when i need the power.
I have all the supporting mods just need to know the specifics on the fuel system. Car is killing me and i want this done right the first time. Thanks for any input and if you need any more specifics then just ask.
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brian_skotch (09-20-21)
02-08-10, 01:24 PM
#4
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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Talk with Glenn at AZRR. He'll have the answers.
However, off the top of my head, I don't think that even with two 044 you won't have enough fuel (injector-limited) for 500RWHP correctly (i.e. reasonable fuel pressure, duty cycles, et).
However, off the top of my head, I don't think that even with two 044 you won't have enough fuel (injector-limited) for 500RWHP correctly (i.e. reasonable fuel pressure, duty cycles, et).
02-09-10, 10:51 AM
#6
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Twin Boschs are good for at least ~700rwhp on E85.
Twin Boschs are good for at least ~700rwhp on E85.
02-09-10, 05:13 PM
#7
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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FDCurt, I think it's a fair comment about Glen's experience. However, Glen (and 2a+ron on this forum) both have close to ties to Paul Yaw who does have the answers to your questions. Have you asked directly?
Just to reitereate, twin 044 are not the issue as a pair will flow 7500cc/min at 70 psi (50 psi base + 25 lbs of boost). Of course this assumes sufficiently stout wiring.
Your setup is INJECTOR limited. Started out estimating but then I want to know for myself, since I have the same setup. I had an old spreadsheet that had the fuel capacity number and want to re-verify my previous asserttion, so here's my "guesstimate:"
At 85% duty cycle and a base fuel pressure of 50 psi, you'll flow 5878cc/min. Assuming 66lbs/min of air flow from the turbo at an E85 max rich torque AFR of 6.975 you'll need 9.46 lbs/min of fuel for 500 crank HP. A little speadsheet work at an E85 density of 6.5 lbs/Gal, or 582.35 cc/lb and you'll need 5509cc/min pf injector flow. So if you target is 500 crank.. no problem. For Five Big Ones at the wheel you need about 6200cc/min plus or minus 200 (depending on your drivetrain loss percentage). So how's that for an answer!
Just to reitereate, twin 044 are not the issue as a pair will flow 7500cc/min at 70 psi (50 psi base + 25 lbs of boost). Of course this assumes sufficiently stout wiring.
Your setup is INJECTOR limited. Started out estimating but then I want to know for myself, since I have the same setup. I had an old spreadsheet that had the fuel capacity number and want to re-verify my previous asserttion, so here's my "guesstimate:"
At 85% duty cycle and a base fuel pressure of 50 psi, you'll flow 5878cc/min. Assuming 66lbs/min of air flow from the turbo at an E85 max rich torque AFR of 6.975 you'll need 9.46 lbs/min of fuel for 500 crank HP. A little speadsheet work at an E85 density of 6.5 lbs/Gal, or 582.35 cc/lb and you'll need 5509cc/min pf injector flow. So if you target is 500 crank.. no problem. For Five Big Ones at the wheel you need about 6200cc/min plus or minus 200 (depending on your drivetrain loss percentage). So how's that for an answer!
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02-11-10, 10:22 PM
#8
I set up my last fuel system with Glen. We ran out of gas at 17lbs. Glen didnt think of the fuel line limitation. This was a good building block for glen. We tried to go cheap and ran into problems.
So if i did the math right i should be good on injectors. I dont know what the max HP number will be i am just going to max out the turbo. Running 26-28 lbs of boost on it.
I just wanted to know the fuel lines needed. -8 or -10? plans are to run both pumps in the tank though fuel filters to a single line. The line will run on the frame rail and up to the motor where it will split again into two lines to feed both rails. I know the pumps will support it.
So if i did the math right i should be good on injectors. I dont know what the max HP number will be i am just going to max out the turbo. Running 26-28 lbs of boost on it.
I just wanted to know the fuel lines needed. -8 or -10? plans are to run both pumps in the tank though fuel filters to a single line. The line will run on the frame rail and up to the motor where it will split again into two lines to feed both rails. I know the pumps will support it.
02-14-10, 04:53 PM
#9
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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Check out the "Flow Capacity of Hose Assemblies" in an Aeroquip Performance Products catalog for clues. Google for the catalog. I tried to attach but it's larger than allowable forum file limits.
The really silly part is that AN hose standard is based on exterior and not INTERIOR diameters (ID) so you get some varience in hose, fittings and adapter ID's. However Aeroquip catalogs also references the following NOMINAL IDs (i.e. worst case scenerios) for AN sizes:
At 6200 cc/min or 1.65 g/min, looks to me like -06 is well within the "suggested" velocity range for pressurized lines. I personally now Admittedly, I wonder how total numbers of ends would factor in to those flow rates. That said, I'm running a -10 system because once I built it I never wanted to have to think about it again, but it sure ain't cheap for hose plumbing.
Also, you'll need to consider other flow restiction in your plumbing. Most significant for E85 is the fuel filter(s). I've gone to stainless element filters under the assumption that warning of paper element swelling are true. Also the flow capacity at similiar rates for most aftermarket filters will result in only a couple of psi's of pressure differential across the filter. Are you still using paper element filters?
As is ALWAYS the case, the "cost/performance/reliability triple constraint of motorsports" remains immutable. So what's in your future? ;-)
The really silly part is that AN hose standard is based on exterior and not INTERIOR diameters (ID) so you get some varience in hose, fittings and adapter ID's. However Aeroquip catalogs also references the following NOMINAL IDs (i.e. worst case scenerios) for AN sizes:
- AN ID
- -06 .30"
- -08 .39"
- -10 .48"
- -1. .61"
At 6200 cc/min or 1.65 g/min, looks to me like -06 is well within the "suggested" velocity range for pressurized lines. I personally now Admittedly, I wonder how total numbers of ends would factor in to those flow rates. That said, I'm running a -10 system because once I built it I never wanted to have to think about it again, but it sure ain't cheap for hose plumbing.
Also, you'll need to consider other flow restiction in your plumbing. Most significant for E85 is the fuel filter(s). I've gone to stainless element filters under the assumption that warning of paper element swelling are true. Also the flow capacity at similiar rates for most aftermarket filters will result in only a couple of psi's of pressure differential across the filter. Are you still using paper element filters?
As is ALWAYS the case, the "cost/performance/reliability triple constraint of motorsports" remains immutable. So what's in your future? ;-)
02-21-10, 09:37 PM
#10
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im running 15psi and go 426whp
4-1600cc injectors
bigger fuel lines
dual walbro fuel pump
74mm turbo
3 channel ignition
im soon to up the boost up to 22 cause 15psi for this turbo just isnt scratching the surface on what it can do. looking at the duty cycle i should be close to maxing out the injectors but at 22psi i will have a save 500hp tune.
4-1600cc injectors
bigger fuel lines
dual walbro fuel pump
74mm turbo
3 channel ignition
im soon to up the boost up to 22 cause 15psi for this turbo just isnt scratching the surface on what it can do. looking at the duty cycle i should be close to maxing out the injectors but at 22psi i will have a save 500hp tune.
07-09-10, 10:06 PM
#11
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Twin Boschs are good for at least ~700rwhp on E85.
Twin Boschs are good for at least ~700rwhp on E85.
07-10-10, 01:16 AM
#12
I just dynoed on e85, 506whp with 440torque @ steve kan's mustang dyno,
my fuel setup
two walbro in tank,
7600cc injectors (five o hiZ. prim. 2x1000, 2x1200 and sec. low imp. bosch 2x1600)
40psi base pressure,
stock lines 1 to each rail, and canister line for return if I remember corectly,
2 stock style paper filters for each line, around 15-20k miles one them, just replaced to
new ones before dyno,
aeromotive an6 fpr,
@ 65psi on boost fuel pressure I was still far from maxing out
my fuel setup
two walbro in tank,
7600cc injectors (five o hiZ. prim. 2x1000, 2x1200 and sec. low imp. bosch 2x1600)
40psi base pressure,
stock lines 1 to each rail, and canister line for return if I remember corectly,
2 stock style paper filters for each line, around 15-20k miles one them, just replaced to
new ones before dyno,
aeromotive an6 fpr,
@ 65psi on boost fuel pressure I was still far from maxing out
07-24-10, 10:46 PM
#16
No juice just boost
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Based on Carlos calculation, it needs approx 6200cc to make 500rwhp@50psi base pressure. 8800cc * .75 duty cycle is 6600cc assuming he is running 40psi base pressure. I think it sounds pretty close.
07-25-10, 01:50 AM
#17
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makes sense, I'm considering running 60 psi base fuel pressure since the dual pumps can handle it and from what I've heard the e85 likes it, figure that'll drop my idc a nice chunk
07-30-10, 11:53 AM
#18
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Twin Boschs are good for at least ~700rwhp on E85.
Twin Boschs are good for at least ~700rwhp on E85.
With 6000cc's of inj.'s and twin 044's you have more than enough fuel for 500+rwhp on E85 reliably bro... it's been done/proven many many times with that same combo/set-up.
08-09-10, 12:38 PM
#20
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that's probably pretty close, are you on e85? I would assume so since you're here. What's you're base pressure and idc right now?
http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?...os=v&chapter=1
times the power output by .70 and you'll be close-ish. 50 psi base pressure puts you around 530 on e85
http://www.wannaspeed.com/index.php?...os=v&chapter=1
times the power output by .70 and you'll be close-ish. 50 psi base pressure puts you around 530 on e85
08-09-10, 01:48 PM
#21
you know thats a good question i think its around 40-45 psi and duty cycle it around %85 (from wat i was told). So im failery sure its reliably maxed out. Im just double checking since i cant access my e6k without a serial adapter for my computer.
i jus purchased jrats old car and e85 is new to me
link isnt working
i jus purchased jrats old car and e85 is new to me
link isnt working
08-09-10, 07:50 PM
#22
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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500 hp on E85
500 hp is 960 CFM or 66.33 pounds of air per minute.
let's say we want to run 11.3 AFR (you can simply do the math for other AFRs if you follow my process)
so 66.33 pounds of air and at an 11.3 ratio that would be 5.87 pounds of gasoline.
but we are running E85 so let's convert:
5.87 pounds of gasoline is .924 gallons (per minute).
.924 times 116,090 BTUs (per gallon of gas) = 107,328 BTUs needed to make 500 rw rotary hp.
107,328 divided by 82,293 (BTUs in a gallon of E85) = 1.304 gallons per minute of E85 to make 500 rotary rwhp at 11.3 AFR.
1.304 gallons per minute is 4936 CC/Min
assuming you wish to run your injectors at 85% max duty you need
4936 X 1.176 = 5807.
and you want to be able to run 11.0 to one if you wish so
5965 looks good for a min max delivery for 500.
howard
500 hp is 960 CFM or 66.33 pounds of air per minute.
let's say we want to run 11.3 AFR (you can simply do the math for other AFRs if you follow my process)
so 66.33 pounds of air and at an 11.3 ratio that would be 5.87 pounds of gasoline.
but we are running E85 so let's convert:
5.87 pounds of gasoline is .924 gallons (per minute).
.924 times 116,090 BTUs (per gallon of gas) = 107,328 BTUs needed to make 500 rw rotary hp.
107,328 divided by 82,293 (BTUs in a gallon of E85) = 1.304 gallons per minute of E85 to make 500 rotary rwhp at 11.3 AFR.
1.304 gallons per minute is 4936 CC/Min
assuming you wish to run your injectors at 85% max duty you need
4936 X 1.176 = 5807.
and you want to be able to run 11.0 to one if you wish so
5965 looks good for a min max delivery for 500.
howard
