Alternative Fuels Discussion and Tech on using alternatives such as E85 or Hydrogen or other fuels and/or supplements to Gasoline in Rotary Engines

E85 pump options, keeping it simple

Old 07-16-13, 01:13 PM
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E85 pump options, keeping it simple

i am just starting to fixture my E85 setup. doing my research within this excellent Section i am struck by all the fuel system contortions. multiple multiple pumps sumps etc.

admittedly i have over-engineered a few things in the past but i have gained (some) religion.

i am looking for 600 max SAE hp.

RXTASY7 is making between 6 and 700 on 4 2K injectors.... good enough for me.

let's assume they actually put out 2200 per so we have 8800CC.

since we have 2 deducts, duty (15%) and lag (13%) 8800 nets 6507 call it 6500 CC that the pump has to move against 30 psi of boost and 43.5 rail pressure. i don't know if he is running higher pressure but if so it would add to the pump burden... (pls let us know)

6500 CC is 390 liters per hour.

at 13.5 V and 70 PSI

Aero Stealth 287

Walbro E85 pump (900267) 360

(objective, accurate numbers from Kenne Bell)

not enough, but add a Kenne Bell Boost A Pump ($238) which only works in boost and turn the dial to 17.5 volts:

Aero Stealth 431

Walbro E85 517

Aero Stealth Pump comfortably under $200
Walbro 900267 $220
Kenne Bell BAP $238

it may be that RXTASYS7's rail pressure is up a bit so he is using more fuel but keep in mind flow only rises w the square root of the increase.

for instance going from 43.5 to 60, a 38% pressure increase adds only 17% more flow.

both pumps are pretty close to drop in, work w E85, and are Amp friendly. the Kenne Bell works only in boost so you don't have huge amounts of fuel re-cycling thru your system.

simple, cheap. sign me up.

howard
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Old 07-16-13, 09:00 PM
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Hey Howard. I am running 4 Bar base pressure.
Also, here is some documentation that might help you.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/IDInstructions.html
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Injector Dynamics Text.pdf (59.4 KB, 372 views)
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Old 07-16-13, 09:37 PM
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Simple to me would be dual pumps and done.

I don't understand the appeal of the BAP it is IMO a band-aid for too small of a pump.

Personally I would use dual 044 in the CJ hangar for what you are doing and call it a day. Run some heavy gauge wire and quality relays for power along with parallel fuel lines and have a good proven reliable setup.

There are plenty of people running the dual fuel pump setups on many different engine and platform across the automotive industry and do not have a problem with fuel density. So stop worrying about it.
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Old 07-17-13, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by RENESISFD View Post
Simple to me would be dual pumps and done.

I don't understand the appeal of the BAP it is IMO a band-aid for too small of a pump.

Personally I would use dual 044 in the CJ hangar for what you are doing and call it a day. Run some heavy gauge wire and quality relays for power along with parallel fuel lines and have a good proven reliable setup.

There are plenty of people running the dual fuel pump setups on many different engine and platform across the automotive industry and do not have a problem with fuel density. So stop worrying about it.
I am doing all of the above.
2-Bosch 044's with heavy duty fuses, wiring, relays, and 60 PSI base pressure.
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Old 07-17-13, 09:23 AM
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i think there is only one "intank pump" capable of this HP target, that is the walbro 316 aka 360 aka e85 walbr400. Also there is nothing wrong with a boost a pump, particularly using it to boost voltage only when needed. There is another better version of the BAP made by JMS i believe.

the twin bosch will work - I run that setup in my race car, but its a big fuel system and be aware it can heat your fuel more than a single intank on a BAP
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Old 07-17-13, 11:23 AM
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i like the a100 although i personally dont own one yet. my brother does and its been great
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Old 07-17-13, 12:28 PM
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the purpose of my post was to simply offer another option for consideration. i am not suggesting it is better than other setups but it looks like it will work for my needs.

the value of this board is all kinds of people are sharing what they are doing...

i have used a KB Boost A Pump since 2004 and consider it a simple install and i like that it only works when you need it.

i ran a Denso pump on the BAP at a 20% Volt gain for 8 years and the pump was fine w the increased voltage.

a combo of the Walbro E85 pump ( PN 9000267) and 17.5 Volts under boost can do 517 liters per hour which is more than enough to meet my needs.

since the BAP has been in my car since 2004 installation time is pretty short. (zero)

MSD makes a variation on the BAP but a vacuum line needs to connect to the module meaning it must be situated within the engine compartment.

Kenne Bell supplies a small pressure diaphragm that functions as a boost switch and two wires communicate w the module that i have located in the pass side compartment w my battery.

i have a Walbro E85 on the way.

filters lines and a FFS are next up. i am debating whether to just add 2 more EV14 2ks bringing me to 4 or swap my FFE secondary rail to a 4 hole and then run 2 1000 prim and 4 2K secondary. it does seem like some (not all) people are finding they are injector limited...

howard

Last edited by Howard Coleman CPR; 09-16-13 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 07-24-13, 05:14 AM
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howard, will you still run AI after switching to E85? If yes, what mix and how much injection?
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Old 07-28-13, 07:55 AM
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"will you still run AI after switching to E85? If yes, what mix and how much injection?"

first off, let me say that there is no one fuel solution for us... we all want to do different things.

my objective is to have a gas/AI map which i will run on the street probably off the spring as the car flies at 14-15 psi and i do like to drive my car on the street. further, E85 is only spottily available in wisconsin and the last thing i want is to be hoping to find E85 as i watch my fuel needle quickly dropping to zero. running 93 pump the engine absolutely needs AI. i run 25% distilled water and 75% methanol. about 1000 CC meth and 333 CC water.

i am currently preparing the car for the Texas Mile Oct 25. i will run E85 as a base fuel and will run my AI for 2 reasons:

Beyond Redline is currently installing a FFS and in order to interpolate between gasoline w AI and E85 the AI needs to be a constant.

a bit of meth and water will further make the engine happy.

the primary reason i am installing the FFS is so that when i get a tank of E85 and it is E70 or E60 the fuel/ign maps will make the adjustment.

Luke says the primary reason for E85 engine failures is the 85 part of the equation is not always 85.

i delivered my car to BR yesterday and they are installing the Walbro E85 pump, dash 8 feed line and filter along w 2200 primary injectors. we should be on the dyno to do the fuel map late this week. (secondary inj are 2200)

i do need to find out what pressure the relief valve in the pump opens before we raise rail pressure.... anyone have that info?

i am really happy my V88 will do the math on the FFS. at the time i bought it i wasn't even thinking about it.

howard
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Old 07-29-13, 03:18 AM
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Thanks for the infos.

I'm currently also thinking about switiching to E85 for my project, I already have 2x1000ID's primary and 2x2000ID's secondary, upgrading to an exzessive manifold is on the list anyways and cjm will exchange my 2port secondary rail to the 4port rail for a very good deal. I then just need 2 additional ID2000 + suitable pump(s).

But I also have bought an aquamist hfs3 + summer module. -> Therefore I was also thinking about using a FFS with my Ps2000 and trigger the AI only when I'm running on, lets say < E70.

I'm just a little bit afraid of the amount of fluid packaged into the combustion chamber.
Do you have some numbers for what amount of fluid is the maximum in the chamber? I'm afraid of cracking rear plates
Also have to talk to my tuner, he never tuned with the Haltech FFS, but it doesn't seem to be a big deal
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Old 07-29-13, 11:02 AM
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We just tuned a car with a P1000 and FFS. Very easy. Haltech did a good job with the conversion map. We tuned to very low 11s on pump gas and adjusted the FF map to run mid 11s afr. Well worth the money and effort.

Thinking about running a FFS on the drag car just to see what the fuel ratio is. Not to make any adjustments.
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Old 07-29-13, 04:32 PM
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Im aware you are a very knowledgeable guy- but what is the application? I think when you are running critical levels of boost and tune insuring there is no fuel starvation is key- any plans for a sump or surge tank?
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Old 07-29-13, 05:39 PM
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^ All he wants to do is go 200MPH in 1 mile.


Thats it.



I still don't understand the logic behind most of what HC does. Simple is a CJ hanger and some fuel lines.
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Old 07-29-13, 10:33 PM
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Over complicating things like always.
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Old 07-30-13, 07:35 AM
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I test my E85 everytime I get it....never has been below 85% ethanol, even in the Winter.
I had WI and figured it was just another point of failure, so I ditched it.
Just run a system that is tried and proven to work.
2-Bosch 044's with a sump and 4-ID2000 injectors.
A good EMS helps too and a FFE trigger.
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Old 07-30-13, 07:44 AM
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you FD guys are super lucky to have a bracket like that, it would be a no-brainer for me
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Old 07-31-13, 06:44 PM
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I went through my first walbro E85 pump. Failed after about 1k miles. However, I believe it was my electrical system that caused the failure as the pump was only seeing around 9.5 volts at the pump. Moral of the story double check the voltage at the pump during installation.
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Old 08-01-13, 05:37 PM
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Quick follow-up to my previous post. Problem wasn't the pump (this of course after I already installed the new one). Ended up being a relay **** the bed. Still scratching my head as to how it was seeing voltage with a bad relay.
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Old 08-01-13, 07:24 PM
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Voltage jumping from the positive side of the coil to the out pin in the relay, maybe?
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Old 08-05-13, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Shainiac View Post
Voltage jumping from the positive side of the coil to the out pin in the relay, maybe?
No clue. But for those that decide on the Walbro E85, I found it it pulls around 15 amps at 43.5 psi and around 16 amps at 50 psi. I found this info at:

Radium Engineering - Tech Articles
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Old 08-10-13, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Wildman923 View Post
Quick follow-up to my previous post. Problem wasn't the pump (this of course after I already installed the new one). Ended up being a relay **** the bed. Still scratching my head as to how it was seeing voltage with a bad relay.
Same happened to me this past winter. Reviewed a log where A/F's were low to mid 13's (Gas Converted) doing a freeway pull, 3rd all the way through 4th, at 23psi 550whp+. Finally figured out a relay died for one of the pump in the surge tank. Engine is still perfect! Thank you E85. Only high quality Bosch relays for now on.
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Old 09-15-13, 11:08 AM
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we were able to spend a day on the rollers and it proved to be fruitful. i now have a Flex Fuel Sensor (FFS) in my system w a bunch of the usual fuel upgrades... 8800 CC of injector, the Walbro E85 pump being run by my beloved Kenne Bell Boost A Pump, dash 8 fuel lines etc.

all seems to be well. we ran on straight E85 yesterday and i was blown away by how much midrange power the motor made.... 402 at 5000! 448 at 5500! the dyno lost RPM signal where the sheet ends but we ran most pulls to around 8800.

i was running my GT4094r at around 25- 26 psi. we made 575 which is about right for that boost. the 4094 makes max air at 29 psi which after we shuffle a few things we will visit.





i am entered in the Texas Mile in late Oct.

MUCH THANKS to LUKE STUBBS at BEYOND REDLINE FOR HIS TRULY AMAZING TUNING ABILITIES

LOVE THE V88! still scratching the surface and having a ball.

howard
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Old 09-17-13, 04:43 PM
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Anyone know if the Apexi GTR pump will work with E85? Im assuming not since it is older and designed to run gasoline, but I thought Id check.
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Old 10-03-13, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by AX75F92 View Post
Anyone know if the Apexi GTR pump will work with E85? Im assuming not since it is older and designed to run gasoline, but I thought Id check.
Anybody?
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Old 10-04-13, 10:48 AM
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it works, we had one in a R34 GTR here at Full-Race to fill a surgetank with dual 044's. keep in mind E85 needs a lot of flow so really you would need 2 of them... the walbro 400 E85 pump is a much better choice !
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