E85 Pre-Mix
E85 premix can be an issue.
the typical 2 cycle oil that many of us used w gasoline often does not mix (stay in solution) w ethanol. also, alcohol requires a lube w a bit more backbone. finally, many are using a caster bean premix primarily because it does have outstanding lube abilities yet caster does deposit a sticky substance on the intake port walls, rotor faces and if used either in too large a ratio, or idled a lot, can cause side seals to stick. i know this to be a fact from a number of motors. this does not mean that it doesn't work, it is just that you will end up w sticky internals. pls do run what you wish, i am only offering alternatives. i recently attended the largest racing trade show in the world and made it a point to speak w most of the oil companies re this issue. i did post this in the other thread but it is lost as post 33. i learned we have numerous options w re to premix that: will stay in solution w ethanol, that is, they are soluable offer excellent lubrication contain no caster component . from the 2014 PRI: here are three caster-free synthetic oils that absolutely will stay in solution w ethanol and methanol. in each case i spoke w a tech person not a marketing person. Klotz ORIGINAL Techniplate is primarily used in RC airplanes. the tech person, Jame Perkins, is quite familiar w our rotaries and said it would provide proper lube strength. PN is KL 200 http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/4YO7Xu.jpg i spoke w Scott Wieland, Senior Staff Scientist CLS for Valvoline. Valvoline has recently come out w a new line of products for racing. the PRO-V line.... among them is PRO-V Racing Karting Oil. it is a new product as of Oct 2014. it will stay in suspension with both gas and alcohol and will provide proper lube strength. i am very impressed w my conversation w Scott. check out Valvoline PRO-V for more info. PN is 858545 for a 5 gallon pail. http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/908/h78HzU.jpg i received what i thought was incorrect info from a marketing guy at Redline at the PRI and have since checked w Redline tech so can state that the correct E85 premix from Redline is the 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil product. here's the product sheet and an excellent 2 cycle oil write-up. thanks for it Redline... http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/lfqPi1.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/540/9xawdk.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/673/TWv9MB.jpg Bean Free :) howard |
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just an FYI:
approx retail price per gallon Klotz ORIGINAL Techniplate $42.74 (see Sleeper7 link post 2) Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil $73.95 Valvoline Pro-V 2 Cycle Racing Karting Oil $50 |
good stuff, right here..thanks!
:AA: |
update:
i used the Valvoline product March/April this year around 550/575 and did not like the wear on the rotor housings. i believe it needs more lubricity. i am now using the Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil and have found my premix. i also have a number of customer E85 engines that have been running it w excellent results. i used the Redline 2 cycle oil for 4 years around 500 hp (pump gas and 1500 cc of meth) and there was virtually no wear in the engine so i am back in the Redline camp. Howard |
Howard,
If one were to run a rotary aviation OMP adapter, would you still recomend using one of these products for the resivoir (assuming no premixing in the gas tank)? Or would a more traditional two-stroke oil be OK? |
street-heat7,
assuming you are running E85, a big yes on the Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil for your RA setup. one of my engines, on Sep 11, made 614 SAE hp at no more than 26 PSI w a GT4094r using Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil. since then, it has broken two transmissions (i see a T56 this winter) and twisted a driveshaft from second gear street pulls and is running fine... pls do note that Redline offers: Redline 2 cycle Racing oil Redline 2 cycle Alcohol oil you want the Alcohol oil for E85 of course. Howard |
I've been running B100 biodiesel as a premix as I have posted in another thread here. I don't remember how many miles I got on it before I finally tore down the block to build my current high compression turbo block. But, there were no signs of inadequate lubrication, I was doing about 1.3oz per gallon, and no sticky residue as associated with castor. Currently I'm running it quite a bit heavy during this new break-in, approximately 2+oz:1gal. It also shows no signs of separation from the E85 during extended periods of sitting.
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Is this one ok?
Klotz Super Techniplate or should I just get this one http://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-40505/overview/ |
Originally Posted by Howard Coleman CPR
(Post 11966530)
i used the Valvoline product March/April this year around 550/575 and did not like the wear on the rotor housings. i believe it needs more lubricity.
Was it a fresh rebuild to begin with? Approximately how many miles in those two months? Any contributing factors (i.e. not the oil) that you can think of? I ask as I'm given to understand that even using engine oil on a DD that's run hard won't show any appreciable wear in only two months. |
thoughts on castor 927 oil?
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Originally Posted by rollcoal
(Post 12028143)
thoughts on castor 927 oil?
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Originally Posted by RotaryEvolution
(Post 12135664)
no, it's one of the worst for hard deposits.
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i ran Redline 2 Cycle Alcohol Oil in my motor and two of my customer motors and we all had the tarry deposits, especially on the primary intake runners.
previously i had used a caster based (Benol) product and a specially mixed Valvoline item and all 3 created the same issues. i might have still be running E85 if it had not been that all four motors ended up w significantly scratched rotor housings and seals. i am back on gas and meth as AI. if i were looking for more than a touch over 600 i might still run E85 but i do think that a properly set up gas motor will do fine until the 625 area where alcohol begins to pull away. Howard |
thanks for doing the research man
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Pre-mix in E85 suspension
My half ass(ed) test of four different 'leading' pre-mix samples in E85 suspension (@ 2.5oz/gal).:
SPIC RACER GT40R: Corn Alchemy - Revealed |
Interesting for sure, I am running super techniplate at 1oz per gallon, no omp on E&J seals. I have not torn the engine down yet to inspect but I do not have any tacky substance in the intake runners yet as others have reported. I will probably pull the engine down at the end of this year and see how things are looking.
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Originally Posted by 7sins
(Post 12455932)
Interesting for sure, I am running super techniplate at 1oz per gallon, no omp on E&J seals. I have not torn the engine down yet to inspect but I do not have any tacky substance in the intake runners yet as others have reported. I will probably pull the engine down at the end of this year and see how things are looking.
I talked to Edgar from E&J and he recommended me 1.5 oz per gal as a minimum for street with no omp on pump gas, more for track, for my semi-p engine with E&J seals. I didn't ask about alcohol but it requires more, no? |
maybe, remember there is also ~30% more fuel being injected which means ~30% more oil.
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edit: sorry distracted with working for a living, it’s also more alcohol to be washing it off, so that’s not the same thing as upping the premix ratio
the recent article talking about also adding in some methanol top lube; creating a less dry, more slippery feel in addition to quieting injector noise and preventing pintle sticking/corrosion caught my attention . |
so 0.595% alcohol :scratch: even pump gas has ~10% in most places.
are you suggesting running top lube in addition to ethanol premix? most guys run top lube because they are not running another oil in their fuel and providing some lubrication to the injectors and intake valves is generally a good idea when running alcohol based fuels. |
I googled "top lube"
results weren't what I expected :lol: |
apology for the confusion; fixed that post
be sure you add the word ‘methanol’ when searching for top lube is all I can say about that :suspect: |
the oil is mixed with the ethanol... so if the ethanol is going to wash it off it would not deposit in the first place. the question is not whether or not the ethanol is a solvent, which gasoline is as well. the question is whether or not there is enough oil present to adequately lubricate the seals. yes ethanol does not have the lubricating properties that gasoline has but since we are injecting 30% more of it we are injecting 30% more oil as well. i think increasing oil concentration is a bad idea that can lead to fouling.
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Originally Posted by 7sins
(Post 12455974)
... i think increasing oil concentration is a bad idea that can lead to fouling.
Spic Racer GT40R - PRE-MIX - The Rotary Witches' Brew of Tribology |
I don't see them recommending high oil concentrations for street use. they also don't talk about what alcohol concentrations they are running and that is important. for a track use case i will likely run more oil as i expect to be loading the engine harder for longer periods of time. I don't put much stock in "gods" advice, especially second or third hand. at the end of the day i am running an engine that if the alcohol should prove destructive then i did not loose pristine parts. while i am changing turbo setups i am going to try to scope my engine and see if there are any signs of excessive wear or depositing at this stage.
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so not even a peep on here about the new Bio-Rotary premix, and only 1/2 oz. per gallon E85 recommendation :suspect:
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after having done the "research" over the years and having run most premixes i admit that finding the optimum pick probably isn't going to happen based on science:)
i have almost five gallons of a special mix from a highly accredited "Scientist" at Ashland Oil/Valvoline. i have a gallon or so of his second trip to the plate. i have the remainder of a gallon of my current pick, Redline 2 cycle Alcohol Oil. and i really have no idea what works best. sort of like the various "oil" threads that litter the internet. i am now, for better or worse, shifting back to Klotz Benol. as the years speed by i have found a decreasing number of people/businesses that are 100% motivated to find the ultimate solutions to the various challenges that present themselves to our modded FDs. not surprising of course. not on that list is Adam Heyman, longtime proprietor of RX7 Specialties. having worked with E F Hutton for 16 years i am well aware of their tagline, "When E F Hutton speaks, people listen." in my book so it is with Adam. Adam had recently done some additional mods on an engine he had built more than 3 years prior. when he looked at the housings he was in disbelief. the motor had been run on E85 for over 3 years slightly over 600 rwhp and had been pretty heavily beat on. the housings really didn't even need honing and the (RXParts) apex seals didn't need replacement. what was the premix? https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1...923/5qgXmH.jpg my previous experience w Benol ended w the observation that there was a fair amount of tar deposit but most of the other premixes also generated tar. if, as Adam observes, the metal parts of the motor are happy w Benol i will live w the deposits. it would be hard to over-emphasize how impressed, shocked, Adam was as to the motor's internals. |
ok, but neither here nor there for the Bio-Rotary premix if you haven’t verified that yet. Which is being heavily promoted by Kyle Mohan and Mazdatrix. That makes me a bit leery with there being a financial sponsorship involved. Yet relative to your comments, if it can be used at such a lower concentration level then it may address some or all of your tar buildup claim. Hard to be sure without being the guinea pig though …
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Klotz's recommation...
I asked Klotz which pre-mix they recommend for my/our application... and the answer is...
Klotz Uplon Fuel Lube ! Spic Racer GT40R - Things that make you go, "Hmmmm"?! Well, that was unexpected!! |
some feedback on the Bio-Rotary premix from a few forum members in this other thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/alternative-.../#post12555064 . |
Alright I know it has been a few years since I said I was going to open my engine up and inspect it. Well after some family issues and other distractions I have opened my engine up that was built over winter 2019-2020. I don't have a ton of miles on this engine but I think I have some good data.
This engine was built on used parts that were in good shape when I built the engine and all parts were cleaned before building. I used an Atkins closing kit with solid corner seals and e & j apex seals, I set the side seal clearance at .005" and ran Klotz Super Techniplate at 1oz per gallon of E. ethanol content from the pumps I use is stable at 70%. I change the crankcase oil often as it contaminates with ethanol quickly. The short version is that I am seeing some accelerated wear on the housings likely due to not enough premix. I am getting an oily residue built up in my intake runners but it does not seem tacky so I think it will clean up easily. the rear rotor came out looking gross but the front rotor looked about the same as the last time I opened the engine. Overall I am going to say that I need to run a different corner seal, close the side seal gap to .002" and run 1.5oz per gallon of the Super Techniplate. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...bd7b61c919.jpg some wear showing on the housing but not bad https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...9a0592dc94.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...6c27e80042.jpg front rotor face https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...ef79f9b56c.jpg front rotor side https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...7644ccfef6.jpg rear rotor as i opened the engine https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...8232d36ae4.jpg rear rotor face https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...723be32f2c.jpg rear rotor side |
thanks for sharing.
your housings look like the 3 customer motors run on E85 that i disassembled in order to add studs. significant longitudinal striations. lack of effective lube. it seems like you have decided to tune up a few things and will be headed in the right direction. Super Techniplate suggests lots more premix than you ran. check. your rotors are interesting. the pic of the F rotor shows a pretty good seal at the corner seal. little carbon inboard of the sideseal. the rear rotors look like you weren't running sideseals, all the inboard carbon. your oil rings look like they are in need of replacement. OE corners are the best because they have a chrome coating. plugs look OE? suggest you start heavy on the premix. Klotz says 4 to 2.6 oz gal for water cooled racey motors..i am running Benol as it has a bit more shear strength. i will be talking to the Bio people next week after reading TeamRX8's content. |
@7sins Can you share a little more? I assume that with the small amount of premix that you still had your OMP? Any idea of that was still functioning? Did you switch from "E" fuel to pump fuel and how often? Do you have any AI to help clean the motor?
Eric |
at only 1 oz per gallon on E70 I’d say you were fortunate that it wasn’t any worse than that.
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was hoping to dig a little deeper into the Bio whatever premix so i emailed the Co and received a response that "Ben" was the guy to talk to... w an email address. i emailed Ben as to setting up a call at his convenience 3 days later i have yet to hear back. i mentioned i wanted to compare their product to Benol which is mostly castor bean derived... therefore the "bio." Bio is a euphemism for gov'mint subsidies our tax dollars in action. i will do a follow up. the most interesting aspect of the bio premix is there direction as to the amount per gallon... waay low compared to other premixes. i approach w an open mind...
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Originally Posted by Howard Coleman
(Post 12566358)
was hoping to dig a little deeper into the Bio whatever premix so i emailed the Co and received a response that "Ben" was the guy to talk to... w an email address. i emailed Ben as to setting up a call at his convenience 3 days later i have yet to hear back. i mentioned i wanted to compare their product to Benol which is mostly castor bean derived... therefore the "bio." Bio is a euphemism for gov'mint subsidies our tax dollars in action. i will do a follow up. the most interesting aspect of the bio premix is there direction as to the amount per gallon... waay low compared to other premixes. i approach w an open mind...
I won a case of that Bio pre-mix at the Deals Gap raffles this year, so I've been trying to find out if the stuff has a TCW3 rating on it before trying it out in my FD & FC. Oddly enough, there's no mention of this rating on the bottle or on any of the company's online spec sheets. I'm not running E85, just 93 octane pump gasoline (aka E10 in most places), so I'm not sure if this Bio lube would be any better or worse than any other TCW3 rated premix for my application. BTW, I'm running my premix via a separate tank thru the RA adapter kit and the OEM FD oil metering pump. My current OMP tune burns approximately 1 oz of pre-mix lube per gallon of fuel consumed on average for regular street driving, and I'm not adding any additional pre-mix to the fuel. Stock newish Mazda 13B-REW block (<10K miles), all OEM seals |
you might consider mentioning that as well since the data sheet only discusses using it as premix with no mention of using it for direct injection.
which on street fuel driving their recommended rate is only 1/4 oz. per gallon, compared to 1/2 oz. per gallon for high alcohol fuels. Thought I read that Kyle Mohan runs quite a higher ratio on his drift cars using alcohol fuel though possible that the guy is away on vacation tied in with the July 4th holiday. . |
Originally Posted by iceman4357
(Post 12565759)
@7sins Can you share a little more? I assume that with the small amount of premix that you still had your OMP? Any idea of that was still functioning? Did you switch from "E" fuel to pump fuel and how often? Do you have any AI to help clean the motor?
Eric The pictures make the housings look far worse than they are, a little bit of burnishing with 220 on a dowel evened them out nicely. I took those pictures before fully inspecting and cleaning the engine and found both rotors to have 1 side with that heavy carbon depositing. soaking the rotors in solvent for a couple days cleaned them right up. I will take some pictures today before I assemble the engine. |
Originally Posted by 7sins
(Post 12566524)
I have the OMP blocked off. I switch to gasoline over winter, by that i mean i run the tank low and fill up with standard E10 91 oct that is premium here in CO, which usually puts my content around 25 to 30%. I do not use AI as I do not want the extra complication that comes from those setups.
The pictures make the housings look far worse than they are, a little bit of burnishing with 220 on a dowel evened them out nicely. I took those pictures before fully inspecting and cleaning the engine and found both rotors to have 1 side with that heavy carbon depositing. soaking the rotors in solvent for a couple days cleaned them right up. I will take some pictures today before I assemble the engine. Eric |
Originally Posted by iceman4357
(Post 12566727)
Appreciate the response. I am just curious as I am considering doing E85 on my build. Mixed reviews with premix and gunk, so the more information is welcomed. I currently have an AI system(AEM V1 with a V3 nozzle) on my stock motor. I tuned the car and added it simply to lower temps and help clean the motor. Wondering if having AI for the same with E85, not for the tune, but simply to help clean the motor would be beneficial or not.
Eric if you are pretty stock i would say that high ethanol blends are not worth your time on a rotary engine. the extra premix costs and added wear are not worth the charge cooling effect so ethanol really only enters the conversation past knock limits of available pump gas. as an aside i started up my engine thursday after replacing all seals and springs except for the apex seals. I clearanced the side seals to .002" this time and used OEM corner seals. i also torqued my studs to 40ft/lb this time instead of the stock 28. after 20 mins of run time the engine made 110psi compression +- 3 psi on a half bridge here at 5337' above sea level using the rotarycompressiontester.com tester. I will be running 2oz per gallon on this setup and do not plan to tear the engine down for a while this time. the tune is off now with the higher compression so i have a bit of work to do but i am happy with the results of this build. |
I've recently had my FC tuned for pump fuel/E85 flex tune. Running Castrol Snowmobile oil @ 1.5oz/per gallon on 91.
We drained the tank and filled it with E85 (actually E70 at my servo) and I went to 2oz/per gallon of Redline Alcohol 2 stroke as I had decided that based on Howard's thoughts, earlier in this thread. My question is... at what percentage of Ethanol do you believe it is safe to start running a "regular" 2 stroke oil again? This Redline shit is bloody expensive! I topped off the tank with 91octane after the dyno session and I'm down to 45% Ethanol content. I added the Castrol Snowmobile 2 Stroke for the 6 gallons it took to top it off.... but it had me wondering to what degree it is safe doing this? I'm aware that type of oil does not "homogenize" well with E85... but at what ethanol content would you guys feel ok doing this at? Also, Im not set on this Castrol Snowmobile 2 stroke... it was simply what was available to me locally. This is an excellent thread. Thanks to all that have contributed. |
the regular Redline 2-stroke racing premix oil is rated up to E50 and is available in a 1 Gallon size with costs less per ounce than the 16 or 32 oz. containers.
it will otherwise vary based on brand/type . |
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 12582307)
the regular Redline 2-stroke racing premix oil is rated up to E50 and is available in a 1 Gallon size with costs less per ounce than the 16 or 32 oz. containers.
https://www.redlineoil.com/two-stroke-racing-oil it will otherwise vary based on brand/type . |
no, I’ve been using it as an E50 premix
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Does that premix recommendation assume 1:10 oil:fuel ratio?
1:10 oil:fuel with E50 is like 1:30-1:40 with E85, on an oil to gasoline ratio basis. |
I’m not really understanding your question and I don’t see an oil-gasoline basis weighing in on it. It’s not rated for anything higher than E50 ethanol level and there may be more to it than G/E-content.
For myself, I put 1.5 oz. Redline Racing per gal of E50 + 1/2 oz. per gallon alcohol top end lube = 2 oz. per gallon total, 64:1 or 1.56% by volume combined. I’m mixing E85 with 93 E10 premium at the pump in 5 gal jugs and not being overly scientific about it. Usually ~E46 is what the flex fuel sensor is indicating. Which correlates to the pump E85 being ~E70 actual based on a 3:2 mix ratio. I intend to switch to the Bio-Rotary premix once the Redline is used up. I didn’t mention it for this question since being a USA product it’s likely not readily available in Australia or would be costly. link to an Exx calculator page for mix ratios https://www.morepowertuning.com/emix . |
I'm assuming (which is a big assume) that the oil is miscible with the gasoline component of the E85 and not the ethanol component.
I also assume that 2 stroke oils are generally engineered for 2 stroke engines, which typically run far, far more oil in the fuel than even the most die hard rotary premixers. The upshot is, assuming those two things are true, then one should be able to use it *in rotary quantities* with E85 just fine. |
if you want to chance ruining an engine; then ok, but it would be wiser to get someone there on the phone and have that conversation first to see if your assumption has any merit.
. |
Originally Posted by FC Australia
I went to 2oz/per gallon
Rather than speculate on the castrol, probably easiest to mix some in a glass jar with your selected E mix and see what happens over a period of time. |
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