Anybody blown their engine on E85?
05-13-13, 02:24 AM
#4
All I know is if I was not on E85 I would of blown my current motor.
When I first started this journey I did not realize how horrible the factory FD fuel tank was. I was going lean with spirited driving and the fuel tank started to get below half a tank with dual in tank Bosh 044's. I have multiple logs of 20 + psi and extremely lean A/F's. The motor never missed a beat a still runs and idles beautifully. Pulled the plugs after every encounter with high A/F and high boost and there was never even a hint of detonation on the plugs.
I have fixed the fuel problem related to the fuel tank but still would never even consider going back to normal fuel on a rotary at this point due to how forgiving E85 is. It really helps diminish a lot of the rotary flaws. I have blown 2 motors years back on pump and race gas and was not even close to where I am at now.
When I first started this journey I did not realize how horrible the factory FD fuel tank was. I was going lean with spirited driving and the fuel tank started to get below half a tank with dual in tank Bosh 044's. I have multiple logs of 20 + psi and extremely lean A/F's. The motor never missed a beat a still runs and idles beautifully. Pulled the plugs after every encounter with high A/F and high boost and there was never even a hint of detonation on the plugs.
I have fixed the fuel problem related to the fuel tank but still would never even consider going back to normal fuel on a rotary at this point due to how forgiving E85 is. It really helps diminish a lot of the rotary flaws. I have blown 2 motors years back on pump and race gas and was not even close to where I am at now.
05-13-13, 09:26 AM
#6
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
No. It was.on factory coils. I have been readig a lot about.tuning since i lost a lot of trust after that dyno sesh. I looked at Abels map and noticed a few things wrong.
1st. Entire ignitions map was 15 deg flat.
2. Entire trailing map was to to flat 0 split.
Yes, hes a fuckig.idiot that lied about being able to tune. He got me.
1st. Entire ignitions map was 15 deg flat.
2. Entire trailing map was to to flat 0 split.
Yes, hes a fuckig.idiot that lied about being able to tune. He got me.
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05-13-13, 09:56 AM
#8
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Yes.factory tii coils. Leading = wastepark and trailing = sequential? Not.direct.
The problem is that haltechs e6x ,even in direct fire, should not be runnig a split less than 6-8 deg. Haltech e6x is known for its trigger inconsistencies at higher rpms.
The problem is that haltechs e6x ,even in direct fire, should not be runnig a split less than 6-8 deg. Haltech e6x is known for its trigger inconsistencies at higher rpms.
05-13-13, 10:32 AM
#9
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Thats waste spark.
Running your trailing at zero split was not your problem. IT is your leading coils on waste spark. Had nothing to do with e85.
the leading spark on the waste spark, ignited in/on the next combustion chamber and cause engine failure.
Running your trailing at zero split was not your problem. IT is your leading coils on waste spark. Had nothing to do with e85.
the leading spark on the waste spark, ignited in/on the next combustion chamber and cause engine failure.
05-13-13, 10:53 AM
#10
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
The.tuners inexperience cause that failure. Its recommended all over the forum to not do less than 6 deg Split on haltech e6x. Unless you hard wire the coils to ignite.together without any possibility of leading firing.first.
05-13-13, 12:58 PM
#12
IF the trailing was waste spark, yes, definitely a big no no. take the same scenario i said above and look at where the trailing plug is located and firing where the front rotor is at TDC, it is igniting the intake stroke on the opposite chamber. this may not be all that noticeable until higher loads due to the obscured trailing plug hole and the tuning to compensate for it(say a 0 split for example with more advance, this is still a scenario for eating an engine).
i've never had a problem with waste spark on leading only, trailing is i believe where you are being confused, i'm not familiar with the older haltechs but maybe this reference is to a single output for the trailing before they actually began supporting rotary ignition features. you cannot run waste spark on all 4 plugs in these engines. most ECUs only offer waste spark leading support anyways(single channel lead, 2 channel trail).
the only other possibility i can see with waste spark leading is with multiple spark discharge and lazy pattern, where the leading may be igniting at high RPMs after the rotor passes lead plug or again, extremely retarded ignition timing at high revs(timing should advance slightly with engine revolutions, many tuners use flat curves and static timing tables). FC engines also have the variable of having incorrect timing pulleys after several engine rebuilds, which can throw the timing out of the appropriate window, this can be remedied by installing a solid racing timing pulley, since the e-shafts are all milled at 9 o'clock for the keyway at #1 rotor TDC, timing maps have to account for the engine being set to TDC versus the original 5/20ATDC setting.
those are rather abnormal scenarios though, but something to consider. another to consider is CAS gear slop, the CAS has roughly 10 degrees of slop in the gear which on decel or misfiring will advance timing 10 or more degrees.
all of the above should be taken into account when building a high performance engine.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-13-13 at 01:20 PM.
05-13-13, 01:18 PM
#13
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Its pretty much a fact. Haltech even.developed an external reluctor for the haltech e6x to help when the trigger.issues.
But.apperantly your the exception when it.come to running 0 split.on an e6x.
But.apperantly your the exception when it.come to running 0 split.on an e6x.
05-13-13, 01:25 PM
#14
i've heard far too much knock running below 10 degrees of split to ever consider pushing it further. E85 may be more forgiving than pump gas in this respect, which is a consideration but not an all around rule. E85 does burn slower and cooler, so in theory you could reduce the split with much less knock, but are there benefits to it? i can't answer that, at least not at this moment.
any fuel has the ability to destroy an engine but with E85 it would take a much larger issue to do it in. if the ignition is firing while the rotor is on the compression stroke it seems to be extremely forgiving. if there is an issue with the plugs firing on the intake stroke, any fuel is going to kill an engine. misfiring can delay ignition not just snuff it, your tuner trying to push through excessive misfiring and laboring the coils was probably what destroyed the engine. take fuel out once you encounter rich ignition break up.
15 degrees of advance is agressively weak for E85. i've seen people run close to 30 degrees at 20psi+ with very little knock.
any fuel has the ability to destroy an engine but with E85 it would take a much larger issue to do it in. if the ignition is firing while the rotor is on the compression stroke it seems to be extremely forgiving. if there is an issue with the plugs firing on the intake stroke, any fuel is going to kill an engine. misfiring can delay ignition not just snuff it, your tuner trying to push through excessive misfiring and laboring the coils was probably what destroyed the engine. take fuel out once you encounter rich ignition break up.
15 degrees of advance is agressively weak for E85. i've seen people run close to 30 degrees at 20psi+ with very little knock.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 05-13-13 at 01:35 PM.
05-13-13, 03:46 PM
#15
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
. I had learned my.lesson. with that so called tuner.
The new setup with fresh engine and bw turbo is waiting for remote tuning from steve kan. Should happen within a month.
Wish me luck.
The new setup with fresh engine and bw turbo is waiting for remote tuning from steve kan. Should happen within a month.
Wish me luck.
05-14-13, 06:57 AM
#18
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
Sleeper7, my coils run just like the factory fc coils would. Thats how my haltech is wired. So its not full wastepark. It should have survived the dyno tuning. Idk why your trying.to.imply the tuner is innocent and that my setup is at fault.
05-14-13, 08:18 AM
#19
Well, it looks like you can blow it up on E85, just takes a lot to do it!
Given the propensity of easily blowing up the rotary engine, I don't understand why more rotary enthusiast's don't use E85?
I feel like it is the holy grail for our cars!
Given the propensity of easily blowing up the rotary engine, I don't understand why more rotary enthusiast's don't use E85?
I feel like it is the holy grail for our cars!
05-14-13, 08:21 AM
#20
Where would you draw the line that wasted spark is not a good system and a 4 coil system should be used?
Funny enough I have stock FC coils in place, but received a set of four trailing coils welded together so I could wire them up if there is an advantage of having that over the wasted spark system.
I ask because I'm spending nearly $5k on a rebuild with track time in mind so I dont want to be blowing this up...
P.S. I will be running pump gas with water injection.
Funny enough I have stock FC coils in place, but received a set of four trailing coils welded together so I could wire them up if there is an advantage of having that over the wasted spark system.
I ask because I'm spending nearly $5k on a rebuild with track time in mind so I dont want to be blowing this up...
P.S. I will be running pump gas with water injection.
05-14-13, 09:54 AM
#21
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Never said waste spark is absolutely junk. It's only bad if the trigger system is not accurate. And the FC is not as good as the FD. Waste spark does has it's place but when trying to make power, going sequential ignition is the best. There's a reason why most of the high HP cars are not running waste spark. And if they are there trigger set up is spot on. I have personally seen how far the FC timing can move around. It is crazy. If the senses is you have to have a split greater then 6 degs to prevent trailing firing before leading. is it the trailing of leading timing that is moving around???? Another thing to think about when making big power and waste spark, your sparking the waste spark just before the apex seal travels over the plug. if the plug does not cool in time it will ignite the incoming chamber. There is a reason why Mazda made the trailing plug hole so small. compression and eliminating as much fuel entering the plug area. There's more but.
10 14 years ago this guy was hurting motors on waste spark. E6#. FD. the only thing that help was to eliminate the waste spark. everything else was left alone. And he has one of the fastest FD in the country.
Waste spark IMO is for fuel economy.
And E85 does help with turbo spool. Seen it done it!
10 14 years ago this guy was hurting motors on waste spark. E6#. FD. the only thing that help was to eliminate the waste spark. everything else was left alone. And he has one of the fastest FD in the country.
Waste spark IMO is for fuel economy.
And E85 does help with turbo spool. Seen it done it!
05-14-13, 10:00 AM
#22
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Where would you draw the line that wasted spark is not a good system and a 4 coil system should be used?
Funny enough I have stock FC coils in place, but received a set of four trailing coils welded together so I could wire them up if there is an advantage of having that over the wasted spark system.
I ask because I'm spending nearly $5k on a rebuild with track time in mind so I dont want to be blowing this up...
P.S. I will be running pump gas with water injection.
Funny enough I have stock FC coils in place, but received a set of four trailing coils welded together so I could wire them up if there is an advantage of having that over the wasted spark system.
I ask because I'm spending nearly $5k on a rebuild with track time in mind so I dont want to be blowing this up...
P.S. I will be running pump gas with water injection.
Don't know the line/limit. But my current set up is four trailing coils and four leading ignitors. Some will say it's weak sauce but it working and it was cheap.
IMO the trigger set up is what make the car run at it's best.
05-14-13, 10:01 AM
#23
F**K THE SYSTEM!!
I already plan on using e85 again. My power goal is 330-350whp. Whatever my bw s360 makes with 14 psi springs on the dual wastegates. I do want to eventually upgrade my e6x to a new platinum so i could use the 4 new ls2 truck coils i have laying around.
