Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Everyone needs to check that EVERY coil is firing correctly, not just your Leading Front Rotor. I find that most people either don't know how to check timing, or assume that since you check L 1 that everyone other one is firing correctly.

Yesterday I had a car on the dyno, and as always I check timing before tuning. Sure enough the Leading signal wires were swapped on this direct fire car. On a wasted spark car this doesn't matter, however in direct fire it does, and will blow your engine!

I find that most people don't have an ECU setting issue as its quite simple on a 13BREW, or any mag trigger equiped car. You cannot make mechanical adjustments like on a car with a CAS or Dizzy, which complicates things a lot. Now an FC its easy to have incorrect alignment of the ECU trigger settings, and the CAS. The main problem on the FD3S cars is in the coil signal WIRING. There Universal boxes use a different pin out than the PNP MODELS!

For the trigger settings all you have to do is go to the triggering tab, hit SELECT engine for trigger settings, select mazda, then select your coil configuration( stock S4/S5 coils, wasted spark S6 coils, or DF). The DF settings are the same for ALL S4 through S8 cars even though they have different pickups. This only works for STOCK trigger wheels, FFE wheels are different, and I will get to that(including how to wire them).

For an FC3S or an CAS car, you should hit the ignition lock timing box under the trigger tab( and set it to TDC aka 0 BTDC in the software). Currently we cannot adjust it to ATDC where the OEM marks are, but this will happen in the next firmware version. Anyhow so you will need to make a TDC mark on your pulley. I usually just measure the distance between the two OEM marks(-5, -20) and calculate the difference between, and roughly 1/3 is difference between the -5 RED mark, and where TDC should be. TDC mark( 0 BTDC in software) will be a few MM to the right of the -5 red mark( clockwise if facing the engine). If it doesn't align you need to hit the OFFSET trigger angles in either direction until it aligns.

Moving on..

The timing marks are different between FC and FD cars.

On a FC there is a RED mark( -5 ) and yellow mark ( -20). These figures are in ATDC, after top dead center( which means retarded timing, as it happens later, or after TDC). BTDC timing is actually advanced timing, even though the first acronym is BEFORE.

On an FD engine with stock trigger wheel all you have is One timing notch, and this is 20ATDC.


So now you have all of your ECU settings correct, and hopefully you have the spark plug wires going to their correct spots. Remember Rotor 1, or Front rotor is the rotor that is closest to the radiator, or front of the car. Rotor 2, or Rear rotor is closest to the firewall. Trailing plugs are on the top of the engine, and leading on the bottom.


Now we need to verify its all wired correctly! The wiring pinout is different between the plug and play ecus and the universal ecus!!

The OEM 13BREW wasted-spark configuration( FD3S PNP out of the box) is the following;

Leading plugs are Ignition 1, pin 1H
Front ( Rotor 1 ) trailing Ignition 2, pin 1G
Rear ( Rotor 2) trailing Ignition 3, pin 1J

To pin the 13BREW for Direct Fire with a PNP BOX, NOT 420/440/1280;
Front( Rotor 1 ) Leading Ignition 1, pin 1H
Front ( Rotor 1) Trailing Ignition 2, pin 1G
Rear ( Rotor 2) Trailing Ignition 3, pin 1J
Rear ( Rotor 2 ) Leading Ignition 4, pin 1L

If you are using a E420D Basic, or E440D wire in model it is assumed you will NOT be running the OEM coils in wasted spark mode, but you will be doing 4 IGN-1A coils in direct fire mode. OEM coils are a waste of time, especially on their own!

420/440 Direct Fire Pinout for Both FC3S and FD3S
Front( Rotor 1 ) Leading Ignition 1, pin 1G
Front ( Rotor 1) Trailing Ignition 2, pin 1H
Rear ( Rotor 2) Trailing Ignition 3, pin 1F
Rear ( Rotor 2 ) Leading Ignition 4, pin 1T


I will note one thing, if you are converting to direct fire on a FC3S, it is best to delete the OEM trailing coils, and run 4 aftermarket coils instead of just replacing the Leading coil with 2 coils. The OEM trailing ignitor will NOT work for a direct fire( you will have to use 2 " dumb" ignitions). It can be done, but its just FAR better to use 4 IGN-1A coils.

Once the engine is running you need to check the timing with a timing light on each and every coil.

I will go over this later.

I have asked Andy from Adaptronic to double check this as I have to get back to work...

AdaptronicAus

Hi all,

This is all correct except if you're converting to direct fire: leading rotor 2 is pin 1I, not 1L. This is also in the pinout document (you can get to it by going Help -> "Open Pinout for this ECU" in the software).

I've put this all in one big image that sums it all up, should be it easier to read than loads of text to cover the other options.

You'll also see that the upgrade path doesn't change pins unless the old ones need to be changes, just adds them (eg the trailing ones for the FD remain on the same pins when you change to direct fire).

Also the 420/440 were never build on the RX7 pinout originally which is why the pin allocation is different; when we first designed the 440 back in 2010 we wanted to make the ECU as small as possible so people could use it in tight installations, so we picked an ECU plug that would give us the pins we need in the size we want; it happened to be the same as the NA Miata so we made the pinout compatible with that.

I've also included the base maps for the different trigger and ignition settings; I will add the FFE triggers into the software as predefined trigger settings in the next release.

Thank you everyone!
Andy

Enthu

iTrader: (1)

I am running an adaptronic plug and play for my ecu. I've been doing much work on the car. I recently added in the AEM coils in through the sake bomb kit. I am on the the stock trigger but did run the light green/yellow wire from the diagnostic port to the leading 2 coil for direct fire. I then changed to the rx7 13b direct fire option from the drop down in the triggering tab. The ignition offset seems to be locked at -1. Sound like I am doing this right so far? The car is running well now, aside from a lumpy idle. Does this sound right? My tach is now reading high too, but the adaptronic is seeing true rpm. Elliot had done a street tune in May for me as well.

MarkG

Hi Ethnu,

From the internal "Mazda: 13B RX7 DF (Direct Fire ignition, Sequential Injection)" setting, can you please try:

1. Hit "Choose Engine for Triggering Settings"
2. On the drop down list, instead of Mazda, choose Custom then hit OK.
3. Again on the main triggering page, hit "Triggering Settings", then without changing anything just hit Apply and OK.

Is the tacho reading correctly now? Did the idle improve as well?

Thanks.

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Define ignition offset is locked at -1? Can you post a screen shot?

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

Here is a good base timing map for a 2 or 3 rotor engine.

Split is roughly 5 degrees in high vacuum, 8 degrees in very low boost, and 12 in high boost.

Obviously the above is just a good starting point. It should be tuned with EGT gauges and a dyno( look at boost response, and torque curve vs advance)

Too much advance will warp apex seals, and if using ceramic or OEM apex seals grenade them. Too little advance will raise coolant temps and EGTS. It can also make the torque curve plummet. Generally you want to keep your advance a tick lower around the peak torque areas, and raise after slightly.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I am afraid you have the FC front pulley timing marks wrong.

Yellow= leading coil rotor 1= 5 degrees After Top Dead Center

Red= trailing coil rotor 1= 20 degrees After Top Dead Center

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

I wasn't actually able to verify on an FC here( none at the time), regardless thank you!

silentblu

iTrader: (1)

Elliot, I have an FD, I am having trouble locating the mark on the pulley. Any pictures?
I've searched, but was not able to find a picture on the forum.

bumpstart

on FD pulley the mark is 20 ATDC

if the ecu has a timing split set at 20 .. and the timing light is put onto the T1 wire

when the 20 ATDC mark and the light agree,, then the leading timing is zero TDC

silentblu

iTrader: (1)

I have an aftermarket pulley, and there were more then one mark.
Stupid me, forgot about my hoard of parts, looked at the spare motor and figured it out.

MarkG

TIP: In Version 13 of WARI there is now a timing lock feature that sets the ignition timing to -5° / -20° so it's easier to check on rotaries (i.e. you don't have to change the ignition map and spark split settings).

The latest WARI installer can be downloaded here - https://www.adaptronic.com.au/downloads/

Thanks!

austin102085

iTrader: (6)

ok so im trying to figure this out, and I don't think what im doing is right.

I have a 93 FD, so I went into "trigger" tab and locked timing at -5/-20 I connected my light to coil and shined it down in there. mark was to the (my left, passenger side) by a decent bit. I started to press up and it got farther away so I brought it back and started going into the negative numbers. I got all the way to like -16 or -17 before it was lining up with the pin and the mark (I think from what I have read is 20* ATDC)

so did I do this right or not? that seems like a lot of timing to pull out the gate.

silentblu

iTrader: (1)

I had a cheap gun get signal from another source, and did the same as you.
I would be very careful to try to isolate the plug wire, or place the signal receptor near the coil itself.

TheAsset

iTrader: (11)

take a picture of the plug wire you're connected to

MarkG

Hi guys,

Here's a cut-down document to help explain how the base timing check is done.

The whole start-up guide for the FD RX7 Adaptronic Select can be downloaded here - https://www.adaptronic.com.au/downloads/

Thanks.

jkstill

iTrader: (11)

Following the Adaptronic docs, I locked the timing and checked it for each plug.

L1,T1 and L2 all have identical timing - you can see it here:
L1,T1 and L2 Timing Video

T2 however is different The timing mark is somewhere under the crank pulley.
You can see that as well:
T2 Timing Video

Is this correct?

jkstill

iTrader: (11)

Is anyone even looking at this forum?
The adaptronic.au forum has been down quite some time, and this one is the only support forum available now.

Marf

If you e-mail them they'll provide support too

DC5Daniel

iTrader: (10)

This forum is not a tech support forum by Adaptronic, this is simply an Adaptronic subforum. We have been fortunate enough to have Eliott, Mark, and occasionally Andy post in here. Also with PRI having been this week the usual suspects are busy. Your #1 tech support channel always has been and always will be a tech support ticket via their website.

jkstill

iTrader: (11)

Sorry, just feeling a little frustrated here.

By 'support' I don't necessarily mean just official support.

The Adaptronic forums have many knowledgeable members, but those forums are unavailable for 2 weeks now.

- No local tuners (have to tow 150 miles to Tacoma)
- Other sources have not responded.
- No one here has any comment.

It would be nice to get my car running properly, and Adaptronic is new to me.

I do know how Adaptronic support works, I have used it before, and so will be using it again.

Thanks.

ZeroDrift

iTrader: (1)

Going to revive this thread. It sounds like my buddy's car is having a somewhat similar issue to austin102085, where we have to set a ridiculous negative trigger offset value to make the marks line up. When using the trailing 1 plug wire, we have to adjust the timing offset to -84 or thereabouts to get the factory timing mark to line up. Of course, this is with the ECU's trigger lock set for rotary engines. Tried a few different pickup points on the trailing 1 plug wire and also tried further signal isolation to ensure we aren't picking up an adjacent signal from the other plug wires. No luck.

When we tested the ignition wiring configurations with Wari's F11 menu, ignition pulse, we got the following results.
Pulse Ign 1 = Leading 1 spark
Pulse Ign 2 = Trailing 1 spark
Pulse Ign 3 = Trailing 2 spark

Does this sound correct? Are we missing something?