.::evil inside::.

Thanks again for your input. I have quadruple checked TPS calibrations, so I'm sure that's all good. Threshold limits are 1% and 96%, if that's the setting you're referring to.

I haven't tried different TPS sensitivity levels as I can't locate them.

I have tried predicted map values like those you have posted. I just did a log with those values for you, but as per the settings I have just uploaded all the check boxes are ticked as it just won't respond otherwise and it's still horrible like that.

Yep, tried toggling the tick boxes and values for hours last night to no avail.

I'm in the process of having someone stand behind the car, should be able to do it this afternoon.

I haven't looked at playing with the dashpot settings yet, but it's something I may need to look at. I've uploaded 2 logs, one sitting stationary whilst blipping the throttle, the other going for a quick drive where it of course tries to stall, then eventually does. There's sweet FA I can do to stop it stalling because the acceleration enrichment just won't work. So frustrating.
Anyway, hopefully the logs reveal something that can help me. Also I know there is something up with the water temp sensor, but that isn't causing my problem.

On a side note, this car is my daily haha, I'm desperate to get it to behave.

Slides

Apart from the coolant temp dipping and associated rev limit occasionally it all looks to be reading ok?

Not a lot of throttle pump effort showing however with TPS changes?

Might be best to email all that to the adaptronic tech address to see what they think, I'm pretty sure Andy and one of the other guys have a few different rotary files they can compare to.

Series 8 basemap settings for comparison, maybe need to wind down the gain value a lot?

.::evil inside::.

I disabled the coolant based enrichments and WT idle up maps for now until I fix the sensor issue. Which is fine when the car is hot, and that's all I care about right now.

I did notice there wasn't a lot of throttle pump effort showing, of all the changes we made, we were absolutely baffled by how little it effected the damn thing.

However on the way home today my brand new air filter decided to fall apart and say g'day to my compressor wheel. As you can imagine, it's not pretty. The turbo is still functional but I know I should get it rebuilt So that's a whopping 4 days I got out of my turbo 1st gen haha.

I do have that series 8 base map on my laptop which I used as a reference, among others done by Turblown and some other dude tuning an FD.
I was focused on FD basemaps given I'm using the FD manifold and throttlebody.

You're right, I may have to get on to adaptronic and see what they think. I wanted to try here first as I wanted input from rotary minded people (which I got, thankyou) rather than getting generic information.
I know when I tuned my 13b bp on the megasquirt, getting the TPS type tune with accel enrich right was an absolute bitch and there was no real information to draw from.
At least Andy knows FD motors! haha.

Thanks again for your assistance, I'll try some more stuff tomorrow. I'm sure my neighbours hate me by now, especially with the throttle blips.

AdaptronicAus

Michael: thanks for helping out!

Hi Evil, I have 3 guys fulltime whose main job is tech support - out of them Mark has tuned a few rotaries, plus I have obviously and I have the 13B in my car.

On the idle control, it can't do closed loop idle properly because you have the target idle set to 1000 and the minimum duty at 60%. At 60% it's idling at 1200 RPM, so it has nowhere to go. By the lack of vacuum I'm assuming it's a bit of a portey engine so I understand if it needs to idle at 1200, but we should put the target up to 1200 and bring down the minimum so the ECU can go into closed loop. I'm assuming that the clutch and neutral switches are hooked up because those inputs are configured in the ECU file?

Then I would enable some derivative on the closed loop idle, eg set the D gain to 1 or 2 or 3. I probably wouldn't go higher than 5. But with the D set up, when the ECU sees the RPM dropping, it will open the idle valve a bit to compensate so that should solve your undershoot problem on return to idle. You can tell that's working because on the F11 window, where it has the "flags" at the top right, we have "IDLE" and "FD" - "FD" will turn on when the throttle is released and the ECU sees the RPM dropping.

For the transient throttle, can you tell me about the setup? Is it an injected engine, or a carby engine to which injectors were added? Where are the injectors mounted relative to the intake ports and which injectors are you using? From my own experience the factory placement is pretty good for transients but I set up a 20B once where the injectors were ages from the intake ports "to get good atomisation" - maybe it did that but it made the transient throttle a pain to set up.

One thing to check is try it with the opposite "injector offset" on the triggering tab. It's zero in your file at the moment, so try it as 1 and see if it gets better or worse. I see there are some unusual numbers in the triggering settings so it looks like the sensor isn't in its standard location so that could be affecting the injector phasing.

Otherwise thank you for posting the log file and ECU file, it makes it very clear to me what's happening. I can see that the ECU is making async pulses at the right time, they just aren't big enough to overcome the lean effect. I can also see that you've maxxed out the settings related to async gain. If it's useful I can make a custom FW version with say another double the gain or 4 times the gain that you can try, before we make it a standard software option.

Slides

Hi Andy,

I suspect I may need a similar thing if I ever get round to fitting the injection gear and turbo to my 12a . It will be throttle body injection and everyone I have spoken to with decent post injection runner volume before the ports with a range of ecus has reported spending a lot of time messing around with transients to get them to work, I believe it is a combination of both injector timing, but more importantly on a transition into load, maintaining a consistent runner wall wetting (as they do get soaked in fuel) with wildly changing airflow/pressure so that the condensation/evaporation off the runner walls remains in equilibrium across the transient.

If I get to the point where I want aux outs on the FD I'll throw a select in that one day too.

.::evil inside::.

Thanks Andy and Michael.



I don't have a neutral switch or clutch switch, those settings have carried over from the basemap I used. Sorry for the confusion there. Will open loop idle work without these present? It was my understanding that it may not. I also have no speed sensors. It's a nice and primitive 1982 rx7.

I'm yet to fully comprehend how closed loop idle works on this ECU as I've never used it before on any motor, sorry for my naivety here.

As for the setup, it is a 12a extend port (run of the mill high comp carby fed rx7 12a) with an FC lower manifold and FD upper. It lacks the standard primary injector location and the primary injectors are located in line with the secondary injectors. The injectors are genuine ID1000's. I had my concerns about the primary injectors distance from the inlet ports and have wondered whether messing with the injector timing would help here, however that's a bit beyond me at this point in time.



I will try the injector offset and report back. My triggering settings probably look weird because instead of moving the CAS to set the timing, I used the trigger offset to get the timing set correctly.

I'll do some more testing tonight and come back with a new .ecu file and a log. That extra gain firmware sounds like it might be worth a shot.

Oh, I've also managed to get the car driving a lot better by enriching the part of the map around idle, the problem is the car drives nicely but it wants to idle at 11:1AFR. I'm guessing this is where closed loop idle would be extremely beneficial? Or am I just plain doing it wrong?

Thanks again.

.::evil inside::.

Please find attached .ecu file and log from tonight.

Suggestions?

flaco

iTrader: (7)

you must have a lean spot

AdaptronicAus

Hi Evil, can I ask you to send me an email please so I have your address?

andyw@adaptronic.com.au

It's a lot easier for me to help in that way because it's how I answer all other enquiries that way. It's also easier in terms of looking through the information in previous posts to find out what is direct information and what is opinions! Plus I can answer faster because it will just be there in my inbox.

To answer your direct questions though:

1) The ECU will work fine in open loop idle, but I was hoping to get the idle control to help with the revs dropping on return to idle. What we can do is set up the ECU to just go into closed loop for the RPM drop when it detects the RPM dropping quickly; we need to set that so it doesn't see it when you're driving because that will be very uncomfortable as a driver.

2) Yes, it's a wall wetting problem for sure with the injectors being so far away from the ports. I got around this on the 20B with some custom configuration (on the 1280 you can do that) and it looks like we'll need some magic on the 440 because I don't think the current system will squirt in enough fuel to work with this manifold / injector placement. We could try the original method (not MAP prediction) but I'd like to try with a lot more async first.

If it's OK I'd like you to email me so we can send files back and forth and I can help more quickly. I'll make up a new firmware version for you that you can test.

Unfortunately due to the nature of what we do, everyone's cars are different so we need to make it flexible enough to cover the majority of cases, but still easy enough to use. There is a tradeoff there and until we encounter a case where it doesn't work well enough there's no benefit to making the system more complex to deal with it, if that makes sense.

Thank you, I'll wait for your email.

.::evil inside::.

Thanks Andy, emailed.

Slides

To Andy or any of the adaptronic guys reading.

So I was thinking about this yesterday, as a cheap and nasty "fix" in the current firmware/software, to get enough async on throttle transient could you just use very large predicted map values in the TPS table like 3 bar absolute to get a bigger hit or would the way the transient it transitioned back to the actual map reading mean it doesn't work?

MarkG

Hi Slides,

Adding artificially high numbers in the predicted MAP table is what I normally do when an engine is tricky to tune on transient throttle. But this is more of a band-aid solution, because if we open the throttle gently then MAP prediction may (or may not) be triggered which would cause the ECU to overestimate the MAP (due to the artificially high numbers in the predicted MAP table).

Thanks.

Slides

Cool, as I expected.