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Acceleration Enrichment ID Injectors

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Old 10-07-18, 11:25 AM
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Acceleration Enrichment ID Injectors

Adaptronic recommends using the fuel film model (X-Tau) for acceleration enrichment / transient throttle response. If you watch this
(or read this article) from Andy, he recommends some settings for Injector Dynamics injectors (X of 0.400) because the ID injectors spray more fuel on the walls vs the stock injectors.

I run 1050X primaries, 1700X secondaries. Currently, with the stock injector basemap setting of 0.200, I get a hesitation when I give the throttle rapid movements.

Does anyone have some baseline settings for ID injectors or have spent some time working on Adaptronic transient response?
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Old 10-07-18, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by stompz View Post
Adaptronic recommends using the fuel film model (X-Tau) for acceleration enrichment / transient throttle response. If you watch this video (or read this article) from Andy, he recommends some settings for Injector Dynamics injectors (X of 0.400) because the ID injectors spray more fuel on the walls vs the stock injectors.

I run 1050X primaries, 1700X secondaries. Currently, with the stock injector basemap setting of 0.200, I get a hesitation when I give the throttle rapid movements.

Does anyone have some baseline settings for ID injectors or have spent some time working on Adaptronic transient response?
I would say I probably have the most experience specifically with the adaptronic on this tuning formula. With that being said I will do a write up this week on it for everyone.
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Old 10-07-18, 01:51 PM
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Great!
This should help me too.
Just gotta find some free time to work on it.


Whats the latest on the Modular manual to be released??
Got a ETA?

Thx Steve
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Old 10-08-18, 08:03 AM
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Map prediction and the throttle sensitivity table make the biggest difference to fast throttle movements. The fuel film model can't compensate for a change in MAP that hasn't been detected yet. With stock injectors my best results so far have been with an X of 30, tau of .2, map prediction enabled and async injection disabled.
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Old 10-08-18, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
I would say I probably have the most experience specifically with the adaptronic on this tuning formula. With that being said I will do a write up this week on it for everyone.
That would be greatly appreciated.

I'm also running the same 1050x/1700x ID injectors and will be trying to work on the partial/transient throttle response soon. A guide or write-up would be super helpful!

stompz, whats your engine/manifold setup? I did some porting/clean-up of the ports and have a mild street-port.. not sure how much effect those things would have on transient throttle?
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Old 10-08-18, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by photoresistor View Post
stompz, whats your engine/manifold setup? I did some porting/clean-up of the ports and have a mild street-port.. not sure how much effect those things would have on transient throttle?
My manifold is stock FD UIM/LIM with 'medium' street intake/exhaust porting. I think it's fairly close to a Pineapple Med Street port templates.

I have to imagine the amount of air going into the engine will have an effect on the evaporation rate of the fuel film from the port/intake walls.
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Old 10-09-18, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by stompz View Post
I have to imagine the amount of air going into the engine will have an effect on the evaporation rate of the fuel film from the port/intake walls.
I want to correct myself, the rate doesn't change but the amount will. I am eagerly awaiting Shawn's post . Because of not having the accel enrichment settings correct, all of the cells around idle in my fuel map are overly rich to compensate. If they aren't, and are closer to 0.900 or 1.00 lambda, the car dies when trying to start moving from a stop. That really makes the driving the car feel awful not to mention the hesitation when stabbing the throttle makes the car feel unresponsive.

Sure, getting the AFRs right at WOT full boost is important because you don't want to pop your motor but equally as important is getting transient throttle right because you don't want to drive the car (on the street) if it isn't.
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Old 10-10-18, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by estevan62274 View Post
Whats the latest on the Modular manual to be released??
Got a ETA?

Thx Steve
When pigs fly, at the earliest. There is a whole thread on this they fail to address when directly asked.

They dont even know how it all works. Hard to write a manual when the software is in-process and their support team can't diagnose the discrepancies brought to them. Hey but whatever sells, sells.

Id be surprised if we ever see a manual conclusive of the as-sold modular product. Haltech will revamp the hardware and software and put out an 'adaptronic' manual reflective of their fixed and functional version of the product, which I highly doubt will be encompassing of the product sold between its halfass developed release and the still disfunctional point at which the company sold its problems away.

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Old 10-10-18, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
When pigs fly, at the earliest. There is a whole thread on this they fail to address when directly asked.

They dont even know how it all works. Hard to write a manual when the software is in-process and their support team can't diagnose the discrepancies brought to them. Hey but whatever sells, sells.

Id be surprised if we ever see a manual conclusive of the as-sold modular product. Haltech will revamp the hardware and software and put out an 'adaptronic' manual reflective of their fixed and functional version of the product, which I highly doubt will be encompassing of the product sold between its halfass developed release and the still disfunctional point at which the company sold its problems away.

Skeese

The Manual is already being written here... It is a work in progress but it is getting updated regularly. Along with this there is help files being written with in Eugene to further instruct customers. Also you realize Andy the previous owner of Adaptronic works for haltech now... and is one of the managers for Adaptronic now... So before you speak maybe you should actually know whats going on instead of spewing out bullshit like you normally do.

https://s3.amazonaws.com//adaptronic...GENE_HOME.html
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Old 10-10-18, 07:01 PM
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Can we keep the politics out of it and focus on the topic?
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Old 10-10-18, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
I would say I probably have the most experience specifically with the adaptronic on this tuning formula. With that being said I will do a write up this week on it for everyone.
Patiently waiting.

Originally Posted by stompz View Post
Can we keep the politics out of it and focus on the topic?
I'll butt out and divert my comments to the thread asking where the manual is and where the forums went, that goes otherwise unanswered.

As for the topic, if you read the article from andy he lays it out extremely clearly and provides plenty of rationale to dictate a starting place and even gives a specific reference to the ID injectors....so I'd recommend you start there. I expect Shawn's promised upcoming thread will be a regurgitation of bits and snippets of Andy's article, but don't expect you'll see much to justify anything different from what Andy recommended, but we shall see.

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Old 10-11-18, 08:59 AM
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I'm guessing these X and Tau settings are only for Modular ECUs? I didn't see anything in Wari and I gave up trying to use Eugene on my 440d.

Actually I gave up entirely and dropped my REPU off at a tuning shop that claims to know rotaries and adaptronic. They proceeded to break the transmission. FML. Probably not their fault, but now I'm missing the one event I was looking forward to all year because a 1 day tuning session to fix the transients has now turned into a transmission rebuild.
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Old 10-11-18, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
As for the topic, if you read the article from andy he lays it out extremely clearly and provides plenty of rationale to dictate a starting place and even gives a specific reference to the ID injectors....so I'd recommend you start there.
That is where I started, and Andy does a decent job going over the cause and effect feedback loop of tuning with the fuel film model. But in practice, when trying to get the engine to rev quickly from idle and maintain some reasonable and predictable AFRs, I'm having trouble narrowing in on some good settings. I understand the topic, the difficulty and the goal of the fuel film model. I'm just looking for some experience from someone who has successfully tuned acceleration enrichment via fuel film model and the steps they took to get a good tune.

At the moment, I have some decent settings when it comes to X (Fuel Pooling) and Tau (Evap Time). They aren't ideal but the engine feels responsive now. AS SOON as I turn on Automatic Async, it all goes downhill again. So at the moment, the car is still going lean (still on the scale instead of completely falling on its face) at rapid movements.

If all else fails I can go back to enrichment tables, reference my PFC tune and move on with my life.
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Old 10-11-18, 07:25 PM
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Have you tuned map prediction? I am not using asynchronous injection, I do get a short lean event if I slam the throttle open but the car doesn't hesitate. The car free revs very well. Do you have a datalog and ecu config file you could share with us?
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Old 10-11-18, 09:19 PM
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With all the cars that have been tuned so far, if nothing else you would think there would be a chart of effective values with certain engine configurations.
Theoretically, wouldn’t every car with stock ports/manifolds and id2000 secondaries run the same transient throttle settings?
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Old 10-11-18, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mrselfdestruct1994 View Post
Have you tuned map prediction? I am not using asynchronous injection, I do get a short lean event if I slam the throttle open but the car doesn't hesitate. The car free revs very well. Do you have a datalog and ecu config file you could share with us?
I have some from the dyno but they are before I was looking at transient throttle stuff. I'll go grab some logs to post this weekend.
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Old 10-12-18, 11:19 AM
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Hi Everyone,

I do apologize that I have not written the guide yet. There has been some major changes in my life and its just going to delay the guide about a week. The guide will be on a separate website than the forum as I can ensure the quality of the guide. I know some of you will take this the wrong way but I promise the guide will be available to the public and it is not just a regurgitation of Andy's explanation of the transient solution aka fuel film model. I will have a in-depth guide on the tools that are used to obtain your X, Tau, Transition time for Map Prediction, Predicted Map table. The the tools that are used are both Adaptronic tools and a 3rd party application.

Thank you for your patience

Cheers,
Shawn Christenson
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Old 10-12-18, 11:43 AM
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No problems Shawn. Everyone has real lives outside of the internet and our RX7s. Looking forward to it when you get a chance.
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Old 10-24-18, 08:20 PM
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Any updates Shawn? I need to get some logs of how my accel enrichment works now but I myself have been busy and the weather has been pretty rainy. My FD is a garage queen...
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Old 10-25-18, 09:36 PM
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As honest as I can be it is going to take me longer than I had expected. I am going to be vague but once I have done what I do plan in my head of doing I think you will be happy had have value of what I am working on providing.
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Old 10-29-18, 08:50 PM
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Sorry for the delay on the logs, haven't had a chance to get the car out lately.

Here are some logs of me changing the X % value for my E0 map. Sorry they are long, was driving by myself so had to get to a good spot to stop the log:
  • The file ending in *_35X.alg is 35% (at operating temp but cold night) and the applicable time range is between 52s and 67s
  • The file ending in *_40X.alg is 40% (at operating temp but cold night) and the applicable time range is between 208s and 230s
For both of these sections I gave the throttle approximately 25% change and it goes straight lean. Note: Automatic async injection is on but it is set to 0. I personally don't see any changes between these two logs. Am I still not even close to the expected percentage?

Thanks for any input.
Attached Files
File Type: zip
20181029_Trans_Throttle.zip (2.59 MB, 3 views)
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Old 10-31-18, 10:01 AM
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I think you should spend a bit more time on the VE table before going any further. In the second datalog, you start pressing the throttle at around 210 seconds, but prior to that at steady state you're hitting 15.5:1 and your target is closer to 14.2:1. At 242 seconds you're at 15.5:1 steady state at 3750pm and 80kpa. Any deviation from that is going to cause a stumble and you'll never eliminate the lean condition entirely. Even the Motec manual on X-Tau states that some deviation from target is to be expected.

Also in the second log, you are running E10 so your X is actually 35%. You still have the E85 X map set at 15% and it's blending between the two. X is 32.5% in your first datalog. Changing the X by 2.5% won't be very noticeable.

After correcting the fuel table I think it would be worth trying X of 40% and Tau of .4 and posting another datalog.

Edit: Also just out of curiosity why are your period angle offsets set at -10 and 170 with a firing order of 2-1, and do you run the factory OMP?

Last edited by mrselfdestruct1994; 10-31-18 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 10-31-18, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mrselfdestruct1994 View Post
Edit: Also just out of curiosity why are your period angle offsets set at -10 and 170 with a firing order of 2-1, and do you run the factory OMP?
No OMP. If you look at my wiring guide in Eugene, anything marked with a "__" has been eliminated and anything with a "*" is modified from it's normal function. The harness is a RyWire-like single turbo hardness that I made.

When I was setting base timing with a timing light I found to get timing spot on (with FFE 36-2-2-2 trigger wheel) I had to retard timing 10*. On the FFE wheel the mark is at 0*, and revving the engine a bit after setting timing, it stayed rock solid. Why it appears to have switched to 2-1 fire order I have no idea; I didn't explicitly set that.

Also in the second log, you are running E10 so your X is actually 35%. You still have the E85 X map set at 15% and it's blending between the two. X is 32.5% in your first datalog. Changing the X by 2.5% won't be very noticeable.
Everything seems to be a 10% blend around me, so yeah my E0 map is really an E10 map. I'll be honest, the E85 map is set to default and I didn't even consider changing it. I wasn't expecting that much interpolation between the two maps; thanks for pointing that out. What value are you looking at in the logs to see the calculated X value? I can't seem to find it.

I think you should spend a bit more time on the VE table before going any further.
Yeah, I'll clean up some of the low load areas. I keep having issues with accel enrichment affecting starting from a stop because of the delta in TPS. Every time I cleanup the low load areas/idle, the car the becomes a pain to drive home lol.

I'm curious why I haven't seen many posts about accel enrichment and people struggling with it when using Adaptronic with non-OEM injectors. Is this just my inexperience showing?

Last edited by stompz; 10-31-18 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 10-31-18, 12:17 PM
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Does anyone out there have an Adaptronic or other ECU map I can see an example of some modified X-Tau settings using ID injectors?
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Old 10-31-18, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by stompz View Post
No OMP. If you look at my wiring guide in Eugene, anything marked with a "__" has been eliminated and anything with a "*" is modified from it's normal function. The harness is a RyWire-like single turbo hardness that I made.

When I was setting base timing with a timing light I found to get timing spot on (with FFE 36-2-2-2 trigger wheel) I had to retard timing 10*. On the FFE wheel the mark is at 0*, and revving the engine a bit after setting timing, it stayed rock solid. Why it appears to have switched to 2-1 fire order I have no idea; I didn't explicitly set that.


Everything seems to be a 10% blend around me, so yeah my E0 map is really an E10 map. I'll be honest, the E85 map is set to default and I didn't even consider changing it. I wasn't expecting that much interpolation between the two maps; thanks for pointing that out. What value are you looking at in the logs to see the calculated X value? I can't seem to find it.

Yeah, I'll clean up some of the low load areas. I keep having issues with accel enrichment affecting starting from a stop because of the delta in TPS. Every time I cleanup the low load areas/idle, the car the becomes a pain to drive home lol.

I'm curious why I haven't seen many posts about accel enrichment and people struggling with it when using Adaptronic with non-OEM injectors. Is this just my inexperience showing?
My understanding is that your period angle offsets should be 0 and 180 with a firing order of 1 - 2. You can then adjust the base timing offset on the triggering page.

From memory I think that X is logged as Calc Fuel Film %.

You will be chasing your tail trying to get acceleration enrichment sorted out before tuning the main fuel table. Try targeting closer to 14:1 during cruise for the time being so that the car is easier to drive - you can always adjust the target table once your VE table is closer.

It looks like adaptive fueling has been enabled in the latest firmware (aka autotune) under the Closed Loop Fuel tab, that might be worth a try to speed things up.
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