Acceleration Enrichment ID Injectors - RX7Club.com - Mazda RX7 Forum

Adaptronic Engine Mgmt - AUS Plug-in and wire-in stand alone ECU's for RX-7's

Acceleration Enrichment ID Injectors

Reply

 
 
 
Old 10-07-18, 10:25 AM
  #1  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Acceleration Enrichment ID Injectors

Adaptronic recommends using the fuel film model (X-Tau) for acceleration enrichment / transient throttle response. If you watch this
(or read this article) from Andy, he recommends some settings for Injector Dynamics injectors (X of 0.400) because the ID injectors spray more fuel on the walls vs the stock injectors.

I run 1050X primaries, 1700X secondaries. Currently, with the stock injector basemap setting of 0.200, I get a hesitation when I give the throttle rapid movements.

Does anyone have some baseline settings for ID injectors or have spent some time working on Adaptronic transient response?
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-18, 10:35 AM
  #2  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
 
shawnm565's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 877
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by stompz View Post
Adaptronic recommends using the fuel film model (X-Tau) for acceleration enrichment / transient throttle response. If you watch this video (or read this article) from Andy, he recommends some settings for Injector Dynamics injectors (X of 0.400) because the ID injectors spray more fuel on the walls vs the stock injectors.

I run 1050X primaries, 1700X secondaries. Currently, with the stock injector basemap setting of 0.200, I get a hesitation when I give the throttle rapid movements.

Does anyone have some baseline settings for ID injectors or have spent some time working on Adaptronic transient response?
I would say I probably have the most experience specifically with the adaptronic on this tuning formula. With that being said I will do a write up this week on it for everyone.
shawnm565 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-18, 12:51 PM
  #3  
Common sense ain't common
iTrader: (28)
 
estevan62274's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Melbourne, Fl
Posts: 2,357
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Great!
This should help me too.
Just gotta find some free time to work on it.


Whats the latest on the Modular manual to be released??
Got a ETA?

Thx Steve
estevan62274 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-18, 07:03 AM
  #4  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Map prediction and the throttle sensitivity table make the biggest difference to fast throttle movements. The fuel film model can't compensate for a change in MAP that hasn't been detected yet. With stock injectors my best results so far have been with an X of 30, tau of .2, map prediction enabled and async injection disabled.
mrselfdestruct1994 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-18, 03:52 PM
  #5  
Full Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: PDX
Posts: 169
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
I would say I probably have the most experience specifically with the adaptronic on this tuning formula. With that being said I will do a write up this week on it for everyone.
That would be greatly appreciated.

I'm also running the same 1050x/1700x ID injectors and will be trying to work on the partial/transient throttle response soon. A guide or write-up would be super helpful!

stompz, whats your engine/manifold setup? I did some porting/clean-up of the ports and have a mild street-port.. not sure how much effect those things would have on transient throttle?
photoresistor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-18, 08:20 PM
  #6  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by photoresistor View Post
stompz, whats your engine/manifold setup? I did some porting/clean-up of the ports and have a mild street-port.. not sure how much effect those things would have on transient throttle?
My manifold is stock FD UIM/LIM with 'medium' street intake/exhaust porting. I think it's fairly close to a Pineapple Med Street port templates.

I have to imagine the amount of air going into the engine will have an effect on the evaporation rate of the fuel film from the port/intake walls.
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-18, 10:54 AM
  #7  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by stompz View Post
I have to imagine the amount of air going into the engine will have an effect on the evaporation rate of the fuel film from the port/intake walls.
I want to correct myself, the rate doesn't change but the amount will. I am eagerly awaiting Shawn's post . Because of not having the accel enrichment settings correct, all of the cells around idle in my fuel map are overly rich to compensate. If they aren't, and are closer to 0.900 or 1.00 lambda, the car dies when trying to start moving from a stop. That really makes the driving the car feel awful not to mention the hesitation when stabbing the throttle makes the car feel unresponsive.

Sure, getting the AFRs right at WOT full boost is important because you don't want to pop your motor but equally as important is getting transient throttle right because you don't want to drive the car (on the street) if it isn't.
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-18, 11:17 PM
  #8  
Rocket Appliances
iTrader: (11)
 
Skeese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 738
Thanked 41 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by estevan62274 View Post
Whats the latest on the Modular manual to be released??
Got a ETA?

Thx Steve
When pigs fly, at the earliest. There is a whole thread on this they fail to address when directly asked.

They dont even know how it all works. Hard to write a manual when the software is in-process and their support team can't diagnose the discrepancies brought to them. Hey but whatever sells, sells.

Id be surprised if we ever see a manual conclusive of the as-sold modular product. Haltech will revamp the hardware and software and put out an 'adaptronic' manual reflective of their fixed and functional version of the product, which I highly doubt will be encompassing of the product sold between its halfass developed release and the still disfunctional point at which the company sold its problems away.

Skeese
Skeese is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-18, 12:44 PM
  #9  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
 
shawnm565's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 877
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
When pigs fly, at the earliest. There is a whole thread on this they fail to address when directly asked.

They dont even know how it all works. Hard to write a manual when the software is in-process and their support team can't diagnose the discrepancies brought to them. Hey but whatever sells, sells.

Id be surprised if we ever see a manual conclusive of the as-sold modular product. Haltech will revamp the hardware and software and put out an 'adaptronic' manual reflective of their fixed and functional version of the product, which I highly doubt will be encompassing of the product sold between its halfass developed release and the still disfunctional point at which the company sold its problems away.

Skeese

The Manual is already being written here... It is a work in progress but it is getting updated regularly. Along with this there is help files being written with in Eugene to further instruct customers. Also you realize Andy the previous owner of Adaptronic works for haltech now... and is one of the managers for Adaptronic now... So before you speak maybe you should actually know whats going on instead of spewing out bullshit like you normally do.

https://s3.amazonaws.com//adaptronic...GENE_HOME.html
shawnm565 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-18, 06:01 PM
  #10  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Can we keep the politics out of it and focus on the topic?
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-18, 10:54 PM
  #11  
Rocket Appliances
iTrader: (11)
 
Skeese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 738
Thanked 41 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
I would say I probably have the most experience specifically with the adaptronic on this tuning formula. With that being said I will do a write up this week on it for everyone.
Patiently waiting.

Originally Posted by stompz View Post
Can we keep the politics out of it and focus on the topic?
I'll butt out and divert my comments to the thread asking where the manual is and where the forums went, that goes otherwise unanswered.

As for the topic, if you read the article from andy he lays it out extremely clearly and provides plenty of rationale to dictate a starting place and even gives a specific reference to the ID injectors....so I'd recommend you start there. I expect Shawn's promised upcoming thread will be a regurgitation of bits and snippets of Andy's article, but don't expect you'll see much to justify anything different from what Andy recommended, but we shall see.

Skeese

Skeese is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 07:59 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 508
Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts
I'm guessing these X and Tau settings are only for Modular ECUs? I didn't see anything in Wari and I gave up trying to use Eugene on my 440d.

Actually I gave up entirely and dropped my REPU off at a tuning shop that claims to know rotaries and adaptronic. They proceeded to break the transmission. FML. Probably not their fault, but now I'm missing the one event I was looking forward to all year because a 1 day tuning session to fix the transients has now turned into a transmission rebuild.
chuyler1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 10:38 AM
  #13  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Skeese View Post
As for the topic, if you read the article from andy he lays it out extremely clearly and provides plenty of rationale to dictate a starting place and even gives a specific reference to the ID injectors....so I'd recommend you start there.
That is where I started, and Andy does a decent job going over the cause and effect feedback loop of tuning with the fuel film model. But in practice, when trying to get the engine to rev quickly from idle and maintain some reasonable and predictable AFRs, I'm having trouble narrowing in on some good settings. I understand the topic, the difficulty and the goal of the fuel film model. I'm just looking for some experience from someone who has successfully tuned acceleration enrichment via fuel film model and the steps they took to get a good tune.

At the moment, I have some decent settings when it comes to X (Fuel Pooling) and Tau (Evap Time). They aren't ideal but the engine feels responsive now. AS SOON as I turn on Automatic Async, it all goes downhill again. So at the moment, the car is still going lean (still on the scale instead of completely falling on its face) at rapid movements.

If all else fails I can go back to enrichment tables, reference my PFC tune and move on with my life.
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 06:25 PM
  #14  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Have you tuned map prediction? I am not using asynchronous injection, I do get a short lean event if I slam the throttle open but the car doesn't hesitate. The car free revs very well. Do you have a datalog and ecu config file you could share with us?
mrselfdestruct1994 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 08:19 PM
  #15  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (9)
 
$lacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,038
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
With all the cars that have been tuned so far, if nothing else you would think there would be a chart of effective values with certain engine configurations.
Theoretically, wouldn’t every car with stock ports/manifolds and id2000 secondaries run the same transient throttle settings?
$lacker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-18, 09:15 PM
  #16  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mrselfdestruct1994 View Post
Have you tuned map prediction? I am not using asynchronous injection, I do get a short lean event if I slam the throttle open but the car doesn't hesitate. The car free revs very well. Do you have a datalog and ecu config file you could share with us?
I have some from the dyno but they are before I was looking at transient throttle stuff. I'll go grab some logs to post this weekend.
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-18, 10:19 AM
  #17  
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (3)
 
shawnm565's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 877
Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Hi Everyone,

I do apologize that I have not written the guide yet. There has been some major changes in my life and its just going to delay the guide about a week. The guide will be on a separate website than the forum as I can ensure the quality of the guide. I know some of you will take this the wrong way but I promise the guide will be available to the public and it is not just a regurgitation of Andy's explanation of the transient solution aka fuel film model. I will have a in-depth guide on the tools that are used to obtain your X, Tau, Transition time for Map Prediction, Predicted Map table. The the tools that are used are both Adaptronic tools and a 3rd party application.

Thank you for your patience

Cheers,
Shawn Christenson
shawnm565 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-18, 10:43 AM
  #18  
Full Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
stompz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 113
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No problems Shawn. Everyone has real lives outside of the internet and our RX7s. Looking forward to it when you get a chance.
stompz is offline  
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
spekdah
3rd Generation Specific (1993-2002)
2
04-01-04 09:37 AM
Bathrone
Engine Management Forum
1
01-25-04 09:13 AM
eViLRotor
Wolf 3D
6
11-19-03 07:01 PM
Ranzo
Power FC Forum
1
03-19-03 12:33 PM
InfiniFC
2nd Generation Specific (1986-1992)
2
10-16-01 04:29 PM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Acceleration Enrichment ID Injectors


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: