Why shouldn’t everyone use Evan’s NPG+ coolant?
#101
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by scrubolio
I've read that, but how do you expect water to take away MORE heat when its ALREADY boiling...
Originally Posted by scrubolio
So, since water can't take anymore heat after it boils it will definately be COOLER than Evans coming out, due to Evans soaking up more heat b/c oh the higher boiling point
#103
Will u do me a kindness?
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by herblenny
If NPG+ is such a great magical solution for longer lasting engines, it would come standard in general production cars.. Have you seen it in new cars in the dealership?? I haven't..
#105
Need more sleep
iTrader: (1)
Originally Posted by herblenny
Another endless debate over NPG+ vs. regular coolant..
.. Have you seen it in new cars in the dealership?? I haven't..
.. Have you seen it in new cars in the dealership?? I haven't..
NPG+ is a personal choice guys, not worth arguing. In many applications the water/coolant mix works just fine, and in those applications NPG+ works just fine too. I love NPG+'s advantages and I ran it in my rotary but in most of my cars the water/coolant mix is working well and I cannot justify changing it. I think a better debate that would be more fun is the mechanical vs electric water pump
#106
DGRR 2017 4/26-4/30, 2017
iTrader: (13)
Originally Posted by twokrx7
I love NPG+'s advantages and I ran it in my rotary but in most of my cars the water/coolant mix is working well and I cannot justify changing it. I think a better debate that would be more fun is the mechanical vs electric water pump
I agree.. lets talk about electric pump vs. mechanical... Are you running electric pump?? I'm highly thinking about using one..
#107
Need more sleep
iTrader: (1)
I am trying to finalize my electric water pump/controller and coolant selection for my soon (someday?) to be running LS1 converted 94 Rx7. If I do another rotary turbo it will have an electric water pump ... full flow capability at idle & low revs, no cavitation at high rpm, less underhood clutter, more control over coolant flow rate with the latest controllers, and a bit of uniqueness outweight the negatives of cost and electric motor life for me. I think I'll go with NPG+ on either setup but the higher sg means more amps on the pump, undecided as yet.
#108
Searching for 10th's
iTrader: (11)
Originally Posted by pomanferrari
I dare you to run without a thermostat for one week and report back to this list.
If you take me up on this dare, let me tell you what will happen: your car will over heat, period.
If you take me up on this dare, let me tell you what will happen: your car will over heat, period.
If you just remove the tstat without blocking off the bypass, well, yes, you may have problems.
#109
Clean.
iTrader: (1)
overheating: Evans claims to run safely up to 330F. Overheating does in fact occur at or near melting temp (1100F). Running over 320F (330F?) won't overheat your engine, but it will weaken aluminum over a long period of time. Basically it converts aluminum alloy into cheap aluminum.
Evans: I appreciate the comments from people who actually run Evans. I plan on making the switch.
Distilled Water: Expect a rust destroyed engine & radiator unless you use corossion protection additives. Also boils and overheats more easily without antifreeze.
50:50: Yes, you can do just as well with 50:50 and annual coolant changes, according to accounts from forum members.
Evans: I appreciate the comments from people who actually run Evans. I plan on making the switch.
Distilled Water: Expect a rust destroyed engine & radiator unless you use corossion protection additives. Also boils and overheats more easily without antifreeze.
50:50: Yes, you can do just as well with 50:50 and annual coolant changes, according to accounts from forum members.
#111
Clean.
iTrader: (1)
I might as well address concerns with seals and oil as well, though I know it is risky to address concerns that come from ignorance. People then feel validated to make up more B.S. The seals are metal. They don't touch the coolant. They are continually exposed to 700F+ exhaust gas during normal operation. Oil is good up to 400F+. But it will likely never get very hot thanks to the oil cooler. The air temp inside your engine is in the thousands. The metal never gets as hot as the air because coolant pulls away heat much faster than air puts it in. Overheating happens when the metal, not the coolant, gets hot enough and welds together (1100F for aluminum, ?2000F? for iron). At overheating the coolant has long since boiled away.
#112
~17 MPG
iTrader: (2)
ericgrau, you seem to have done your homework with regards to the melting points of metal. Thanks for that. However, I think you're simplifying things too much. Some of your statements are very bold, while others are approaching brash. I'm not trying to insult your research, I just want to remind you that an engine is a very complex system. I think a better definition of overheating is when the engine and/or cooling system gets hot enough to cause permanent damage to the motor. Here are some points I think should be considered, in addition to the things you've already mentioned.
1.) Rate of expansion. Aluminum and Iron expand at different rates when they are heated. When your rotors and your housings don't align properly, this could allow your apex seals and/or side seals to become dislodged.
1a.) Deformation. I'm no mechanical engineer, but I know that metal will bend, yield, and otherwise deform more easily when you heat it up. I think it's safe to say that overheated housings will deform from combustion pressure long before they'll melt. Warped (not melted) housings seem to be a common issue when rebuilding a motor that has been overheated. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know how much heat is required for this to happen, but I'd bet it's closer to 600F than 1000F.
2.) Don't forget about the non-metal parts of the engine and cooling system. The coolant o-rings are rubber/silicone, have you researched or tested their heat tolerance? How about the coolant hoses? I'm pretty sure that the water pump uses a rubber gasket as well.
2a.) Similar to metal, rubber/silicone/teflon will start to deform as temperatures increase. If I'm not mistaken, a well-known rotary expert (possibly Jim from Racing Beat) has advised that temps above 240F will hurt the coolant seals, or shorten their life at the very least.
-s-
1.) Rate of expansion. Aluminum and Iron expand at different rates when they are heated. When your rotors and your housings don't align properly, this could allow your apex seals and/or side seals to become dislodged.
1a.) Deformation. I'm no mechanical engineer, but I know that metal will bend, yield, and otherwise deform more easily when you heat it up. I think it's safe to say that overheated housings will deform from combustion pressure long before they'll melt. Warped (not melted) housings seem to be a common issue when rebuilding a motor that has been overheated. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know how much heat is required for this to happen, but I'd bet it's closer to 600F than 1000F.
2.) Don't forget about the non-metal parts of the engine and cooling system. The coolant o-rings are rubber/silicone, have you researched or tested their heat tolerance? How about the coolant hoses? I'm pretty sure that the water pump uses a rubber gasket as well.
2a.) Similar to metal, rubber/silicone/teflon will start to deform as temperatures increase. If I'm not mistaken, a well-known rotary expert (possibly Jim from Racing Beat) has advised that temps above 240F will hurt the coolant seals, or shorten their life at the very least.
-s-
Last edited by scotty305; 07-06-06 at 01:12 PM.
#113
Do it right, do it once
iTrader: (30)
Originally Posted by ericgrau
I might as well address concerns with seals and oil as well, though I know it is risky to address concerns that come from ignorance. People then feel validated to make up more B.S. The seals are metal. They don't touch the coolant. They are continually exposed to 700F+ exhaust gas during normal operation. Oil is good up to 400F+. But it will likely never get very hot thanks to the oil cooler. The air temp inside your engine is in the thousands. The metal never gets as hot as the air because coolant pulls away heat much faster than air puts it in. Overheating happens when the metal, not the coolant, gets hot enough and welds together (1100F for aluminum, ?2000F? for iron). At overheating the coolant has long since boiled away.
2. The coolant seals are not metal, they are rubber. 330F rubber isn't good.
3. The coolant seals are not exposed to exhaust gases.
4. My definition of overheating is an event in which the engine temperature gets high enough that some type of internal engine damage has occured.
5. Aluminum has a pretty high CTE, 330F coolant implies that the aluminum is hotter than that. Since we know that the temperature of the rotor housing is not uniform (it is hotter on the exhaust side, cooler on the intake side) the rotor housing is locally deformed which can cause a host of other problems.
#114
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by ericgrau
I might as well address concerns with seals and oil as well, though I know it is risky to address concerns that come from ignorance. People then feel validated to make up more B.S.
Originally Posted by ericgrau
The seals are metal. They don't touch the coolant. They are continually exposed to 700F+ exhaust gas during normal operation.
Originally Posted by ericgrau
Oil is good up to 400F+. But it will likely never get very hot thanks to the oil cooler.
Originally Posted by ericgrau
The air temp inside your engine is in the thousands. The metal never gets as hot as the air because coolant pulls away heat much faster than air puts it in.
Ever see the results of detonation in a piston engine? Why do you think it results in melted pistons? Because the uncontrolled burn wipes away the boundary layer, allowing the combustion to actually contact the chamber surfaces...
Originally Posted by ericgrau
Overheating happens when the metal, not the coolant, gets hot enough and welds together (1100F for aluminum, ?2000F? for iron).
#115
Clean.
iTrader: (1)
I don't bother with personal attacks. You've already gotten more info than you deserve. This should answer all your concerns:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm
Very basic resource, too. Not even meant for car nuts. I told ya the BS would come.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system.htm
Very basic resource, too. Not even meant for car nuts. I told ya the BS would come.
#116
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
It's easy to "not bother with personal attacks" when you have no idea what you're talking about...
Failing to address our counterpoints and posting a "resource for dummies" link does very little to prove our posts are BS. And yes, we don't "deserve" info like yours that is full of BS.
Failing to address our counterpoints and posting a "resource for dummies" link does very little to prove our posts are BS. And yes, we don't "deserve" info like yours that is full of BS.
Last edited by Kento; 07-23-06 at 01:04 AM.
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