well its been a long time since i posted but i was wondering is it possible to run a superchager and turbocharger at the same time. If you could would it be better than twin turbo or single turbo. Also i was just reading about evo8 and it has a twin-scroll turbocharger what in gods name is that.
thanxs

 

Mechanically, it would be possible to run a turbo and supercharger at the same time because of the orientation of the two pieces. Turbos are hooked up at the exhaust manifold and superchargers are hooked up to the drive belts/pulleys. You could really tune the supercharger with the engine so that it would put down a base level of performace- smooth torque curve and non-radical powerband and then throw in the turbo's tuning on top of that. With the nature of the supercharger, it would be a unique idea, but mixing a turbo with it crosses two different personalities. I would assume that you would feel the performance of a single turbo, just a boost in the curve from the supercharger and a decent low end before the turbo kicks in. Fueling the beast would take a lot of gear and the intercooling system may be overloaded when the turbo kicks in. There would probably have to be a plumbing setup like the FD's sequential system that would allow more control over the turbo's spool rate. All in all, I think having this kind of setup would be sort of like running a sequential turbo system, only there would be a supercharger below 4500rpm. Potential would be great, but going through the tuning and fabrication do do it would be insane.

 

no, it's physics, one would have to outflow the other, and by that time...you're better off just running the one

anyone care to argue this theory?

 

yea, but to bad there's no room.... and y supercharge when you can go TURRRRRRRBOOOOO! YEAAAAAAAH!

 

can we even supercharge our cars to begin with? I had heard of some 1st and 2nd geners doing it, but not 3rd.

 

Physically, it is very possible to make an engine both super and turbo charged.

Lancia experimented with that format during the mid-late 80's with the 037 and Delta S4 group B rally cars.

Nissan produced a road car in the late 80's with a super-turbo configuration. It is the Nissan March SuperTurbo here, or Nissan Micra elsewhere in the world (I think)

The engine is only 1300cc, but the concept is sound. I think the whole idea is so that you can run a massive turbo, and still have power enough to get it moving.

The biggest problems would be getting them to transition properly, and finding enough room for the intake pipes to go + maybe need 2 intercoolers? And you get all the underbonnet heat of both compressors.

 

i'm no engineer but it's been my impression that the advantage of the supercharger (solid low end boost) would make up for the lag of the large turbo while it spools.

 

Edit: sorry for my crappy previous post, I was just trying to see how the forum did something.

Check out some of the "twincharged" MR2 cars. I believe that at least one forum member has one of these beasts.

-Max

 

well, it doesn't make sense to me...either way it is simliar to wind and airplane props....if you have a tail wind the engine works less, right?

therefore power outputs are greater, but to me...it doesn't sound right, seems like you're just increasing the CFM, and at some point it cancels out

 

ive saw in TURBO magazine a mr2 with a TRD supercharger which is like the jackson racing supercharger and it had a t-67 or t-72 turbo. i was wondering if you could do it what type of supercharger would be better the vortech one since its centrifugal and it looks like a turbo so it makes it small or one that is like jackson racing

 

if it has an intake manifold and a pulley system it can me supercharged, unless you are running a HUGE turbo, i see no need/want, also with an engine like ours which has no MAF, it would be hard to get the fuel mixture correct, IMHO

 

QUOTE-Also i was just reading about evo8 and it has a twin-scroll turbocharger what in gods name is that.

Didn't see this answered, so...

Dual scroll turbo is one which has the exhaust housing and/or turbine manufactured to provide the affect of having different two different "trims". So it can spool fast and make power. Much like a VATN turbo simulates a turbo w/ varying A/R to spool faster.

There are several ways to do apply "dual scroll technology."

The '87-88 RX-7 TII used a dual scroll system incorporating a non-divided manifold w/ a special flapper door that closed off a larger 2ndary exhaust scroll untill the turbo had spooled via the smaller primary scroll. The turbine blade also had a profile to take advantage of the two exhaust scoll modes.

But, bad flow of the manifold due to shape, the too small primary scroll and a very small wastegate feeding off just one scroll conspired to make this a fairly undesirable turbo...

In '89-92 the RX-7 TII also used a dual scroll turbo, but of an entirely different design. It used a divided manifold w/ very short runners (one 2 3/4" straight shot and one 6" S curve) into equally sized dual turbo scrolls. One scroll was angled to strike a specially profiled turbine to create very fast spool and one scroll was pointed at the turbine where it was profiled for high end power.

This turbo worked better for spool-up as well as power AND had a wastegate for each scroll so it did not overboost w/ free flowing exhausts.

Still, once you had a very free flowing exhaust both turbos were just way too small because no one needs such incredibly fast spool at the sacrifice of top end power...

 

I think it would work, but would be cost prohibative. I would run an intercooler after the supercharger, before the turbo..then another after the turbo. The efficiency of most superchargers is much below a turbo..and you don't want hot air getting to your turbo as you'll lose efficiency in the turbo. So if you could run through the supercharger...bring back down to ambient temp (or close) then through a turbo, then back once more it would work well. I wouldn't want to design, fabricate, or pay for it though

 

Centrifugal blower will take longer to boost and has full boost at high rpm so it would have to be the roots style blower like jakson racing which has instant boost. I would say it would act like a nitrous kit providing low end power till the big turbo spools up.

 

I've thought this would be great before. In the 80's I heard of one of the Exotic cars doing this.

The SuperCharger would give the Rotary what it desperately Needs, Low End Power! While the turbo would still give the High RPM Grins!

I figured the fuel management would be the hardest part to work out.

 

The idea is that they run seperately from each other. Both are connected to the intake manifold, and each one has it's own air intake.

The supercharger doesn't pass any air to the turbo. When the supercharger efficiency becomes lower than the boost provided by the turbo, the two should transition. Instant boost from idle with the s/c, and continual boost from the turbo.

 

All this talk seems pointless to me since I didnt think a rotary engine could be supercharged. Atleast I have never seen a third gen. with one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What about turbojets? Some of them have 20-30 compressors in front of each other.

They also turbo/supercharged piston engines in WWII. A gear driven supercharger would feed an exhaust driven turbo (or vice versa) for more manifold pressure at high altitudes. Granted the conditions on both are more steady state than on a street car, but it can be done. The reason you don't see it on pistons (or rotary) engines is because one turbo or supercharger can provide more than adequate flow and pressure. Cars don't have to worry about huge density drops while climbing.

 

In the 80's a drag racer prepared a dual supercharged, dual turbocharged, dual intercooled, BIG holleys on top, all GOLD PLATED!!!!!!!! sitting on a bored the hell out of 454 king rat!!! I have the magazine at home. I sit and drool. Then sit back, and in a harsh whisper, mutter, "the detonation! The det..oh.. NATION!"

I'll try and dig it up if anyone could possible care. IC the turbocharged packet, but the supercharger heats it up again. Need MAD intake temp sensing to calculate fuel and timing, or bye-bye apex seal. My $0.02 from an IGnorant sumbitch!

 

turbo and hi-tech performance or similar is currently doing a dual charged MR2 project, using a v6 (from a lexus i believe). in case anyone thinks dual charger systems are impossible.

also it is possible to supercharge a rotary, but i don't know of anyone supercharging FD's. perhaps it's because they're all twin turbo, so there's not really a demand? i know atkins rotary does supercharging kits on rotaries, but Kathy said in the Q&A section

"At this time we do not have a time set for an adapter for the stock FI System"

 

There's no question that it is possible. In my opinion the ideal situation would be to run the SC and the turbo into separate intake manifolds that eventually connect. That way you don't have the added heat of compressed air going first through the SC, then furthur heated by the turbo. This would also allow for dual intercoolers, one for each compressor. A transition control system would be relatively unnnecessary. The SC would always provide constant boost, say 5 psi. The turbo would work as it would on an NA motor, just providing more boost at whatever rpm. The car would drive like a regular turbocharged car, because of the constant boost of the SC not ever creating spikes or dips in the hp graph. It would however have a graph that was significantly higher all the way through the rev range, with the normal spike in power when the turbo comes on line.

It seems to me like supercharging would actually have been the way to go with the RX-8, and the RX-7, TTurboXfd3s. The 8's utter lack of low end grunt and lack of torque in general could be solved with a SC, and the RX-7's tourque problems inherent in a rotary could be solved in much the same way, without all the need for the ridiculous amounts of solenoids and valves. It's a wonder more people don't SC rotaries.

Tookwik, a rotary definitely can be supercharged. As Barban said, as long as it has something to drive the SC, a pulley, and somewhere for the air to go, an intake manifold, it can be supercharged.

 

I kind of figured it could be done but I have NEVER heard of it on an FD. I did see a 1st gen. in person that had one but it was a vortech supercharger which runs off of a turbo-looking thing. I wasnt sure whether or not to believe the dude. He wasnt very knowledgable.

 

I know that there is an Integra that has both a supercharger and a turbo. I don't remember the company that sponsored it, but I am 99% sure that HKS is the owner of the beast. From what I have read it's supposedly insanely fast and works like a dream. May wanna search for that one and see what you can find. Hope this helps. Laterz.

Zach

 

the term used for supercharged and turbo chargeed is called compound induction. this practice is not heard of all the time, to tricky of tunning. i wouldnt suggest it for a rotary being that they run hott already. the turbo puts pressure on both the intake and exhaust. more boost from a supercharger and turb and you fine yourself heating up the motor unneccessarily, when u can spend half of that money and just up-grade the turbo. it would also put alot of strain on the rotor and eccentric shaft.

, joe

 

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