Rotary Racer

What’s up fellas? Some of you might have read my post about two weeks ago I finally got my FD. https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/passion-hunt-pride-pics-my-new-rx-7-a-472322/

I got the chance to install a few goodies on the car, Zeal B2 coilover suspension, Endless
6-Piston front brakes, and AME Circlar Spec-R wheels (18x9 Front, 18x10 Rear). I have had the chance to install these items on other peoples cars but never had the chance to do more of a long term every day experience with it on my own car.

Brakes:

As for instillation there is only one thing that can be said, smooth. Every part has it’s place, fit and finish is awesome no need to ream out any holes or trim anything to fit flush, all the hardware is there down to the little grommets that hold the SS brake line to keep it from chafing on anything.

As for road feel, it’s pretty amazing. For a race braking system I have to say it is more streetable that other systems I have used and installed in the past (AP racing, Wilwood, Baer Racing). Right out of the box the pedal feel is nice and firm, no Sponge Bob here. No noise what so ever, not even a peep out of them when there cold. The initial response is amazing, it takes pretty much no effort stop the car. With the initial response being so good you would expect the brakes to have issues and fade after driving, but that is not the case. After a few Touge runs with little bit of late braking, trail braking, and there was not a hint of fade in sight. I have yet to even see the full potential of the system. Once I have some time I will do a track day and let you guys know.

Suspension:

For install, well suspension install is suspension install. It’s just about the same but the zeal build quality is great. The PVS dial indicator for the adjustment is great, it has nice firm clicks and you can see what setting your on by looking at the window at the top. Pretty kewl stuff.

As for road feel, it does not kill the kidneys . These are pretty much the best Coilovers I have ever ridden on. The ride so smooth, bumps don’t shatter my teeth, and for those married folk my wife actually likes the ride and was not complaining . With all this increased comfort you would think the handling of the car would be diminished, but turn in is nice and sharp, corners are nice and flat, and feedback from the wheel is great.

I was so exited the day I installed them I did not get a chance to take pics of everything with the wheels off. Later this week I will pop off the front wheel and show you guys what’s up. But here is some outside pics in the mean time.

SRA-FD3S

NICE I NEED THIS SETUP...........pm me with details please

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

Nice Do you have any clue how much wider the caliper is , compared to stock? Ive been thinking about a BBK, but am concerned my RE wheels will not clear.

Improved FD

the stock master cylinder is a limitation, I'm going with the 929 upgraded MC....alot cheaper than the big rotor kit, and, from reports I've read, the same firm pedal feel and top notch stopping power

Cgotto6

iTrader: (8)

Its not the master cylinder that makes you brake better. That just gives you a false sence of stopping power. The stock brake set up can stop the car in just as short a distance as any aftermarket system. Its brake fade due to heat that the big brake systems overcome.

Improved FD

don't create moronic posts like the one above without doing your homework please....do a search, there are plenty of good threads on this topic

assuming contact patch with the road is unchanged, braking force is a function of:

Effective Radius (distance from center of hub to center of brake pad)

Clamping Force (Total piston area x system pressure)

Coefficient of friction of the brake pads


https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=braking

Improved FD

"In a single stop from 60 mph, a big brake kit won't stop any sooner than stock brakes, and may in fact stop later due to less clamping pressure at the pad, assuming the master cylinder hasn't been upgraded also.

Even stock brakes have enough clamping pressure to lock the wheels, and at that point the weight of the car and the tires are what determine braking distance. Change to a stickier compound and/or increase the size of the contact patch or lighten the car and you reduce braking distance. The only thing that larger brakes are good for is being able to shed heat more efficiently, delaying brake fade longer under repeated hard use. The downside is an increase in unsprung weight."

- Jim Labreck


exactly....which is why "big brake" kits are essentially a waste of money for the street imo, aside from the "bling"/"look at my big rotors" factor

Cgotto6

iTrader: (8)

Wow, your really really ignorant. You might want to do a little more homework yourself... If you will notice...What you said is exactally what I said...Weird. Get your reading glasses out before you critize.

Improved FD

you implied by your post above that upgrading the MC would result in no gain in braking performance...you're wrong

rynberg

An upgraded MC will not result in shorted stopping distances or reduced brake fade, it will really only improve pedal feel by shortening the pedal travel and reducing brake effort. No "performance" increase there.....


EDIT -- And please watch the attitude with your posts, personal attacks will no longer be tolerated here. Thanks.

rynberg

Congratulations, RotaryRacer! My Zeal B6s are still sitting in a box waiting to be installed...too much going on lately. Enjoy your new setup.

Improved FD

depends how you want to define "performance" then....improved pedal feel and shortened pedal travel is "improved performance" in my book, and the improved hydraulic force may decrease stopping distance, depending on what pads you have

rynberg

I won't argue that improved pedal feel is a bonus, but it doesn't reduce braking distances at street speeds. Even with the stock pads, you can engage the ABS from fairly high speeds even with good tires.

DamonB

Everything about Brakes by Grassroots Motorsports A must read!

https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-wheels-tires-brakes-archive-112/do-rotors-lines-pads-really-make-big-difference-231994/

Brakes do not stop cars. Tires stop cars. If the brakes can lock the tires then the tires alone will determine stopping distances.

Altering the brake system in any way will of course make it feel differently but that does not mean it will stop the car more quickly. "Big brake" kits exist because in racing situations the stock sized rotor cannot shed the heat of the brake system quickly enough. A more massive rotor has greater ability to shed heat and thus will not heat fade as quickly as a smaller rotor. Big brake kits do not stop cars in shorter distances, they merely do not overheat as easily and thus can slow the car repeatedly with less time needed to cool between each use.

Some people just like the look of big brakes as well.

Nope. Unless you don't know how to mash on the pedal in the middle your stopping distance will not change.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

That's actually "brake torque". Basically that just allows you to reach the braking threshold quicker, but you'll still only stop as fast as your tires allow.

Cgotto6

iTrader: (8)

Thank you. You proved my point exactally!

Improved FD

"exactally" huh?

the "grassroots" article was a good read

Rotary Racer

Wow I am glad that my post has caused a nice little spout between forum members
I don’t want to add more fuel to the fire but this kit was designed around the stock brake master cylinder. With the larger rotor size and increased clamping force from the stepped 6-piston calipers it has greatly increased the stopping capabilities of the car.

- SRA-FD3S: Shot you a PM

- Rxmfn7: I could get you the dimensions but better yet, shoot me a pm I just need some basic info off your wheels and I can help to get you into the correct BBK that will fit.

- rynberg: Thanks, you will be loving life when you get the B6’s installed.

- Dana “Can’t we all get along? ”

ARD T2

iTrader: (22)

So what we're measuring here is how these compare to other big brake systems, assuming the tires are the same compound. Dana and I will begin our evaluation. Assume you have R compound tires to compare all of them. These brakes will effectively decrease your stopping distance.

Not only that but the pedal feel and modulation has been dramatically improved. I'm sure Dana will chime in if you guys allow him to.

I also simply upgraded the calipers on my RX8, stock rotors. The difference is extremely noticeable. I offer any local guys to come and feel the difference if you have a RX8 so you can see what a simple "caliper change" can do to your vehicle. Let's eliminate variables here and make a good relative comparison. While much of this might look nice on paper from a physics aspect I emplore you guys to test the product in real life conditions before making assumptions. The need for greater stopping power is dependent on your driving technique, power output of vehicle, and obviously assuming your approaching the limits of adhesion for the existing dope *** tires you have. Much of the braking improvement will also be noticed with "initial response" which has something to do with your tires but not as much as fully locking them up.

I'm just a dude who drives these cars all the time, customers, ours, I've tried lots of stuff like Dana. I'm speaking from pure experiences rather than going into the nitty gritty of laws of physics and formulas. Much of it has to be experienced and you'll see why.

cagefreak

nice setup danaburgiss

rynberg: i agree with dana you'll love your b6's. We love our b2's.

rynberg

Posts deleted per request. Let's not get in a pissing match in this thread, guys.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Damon, not to argue, but I think both brakes and tires stop cars. Each play a role in determining stopping distance.

You can be running R compounds, but if your brakes aren't up to the task, they won't be able to stop the rotor very quickly.

At the same time, you can have monster brakes that will simply clamp down on the rotor and stop it 100%, but if your tires aren't sticky enough, the wheels will just lock and keep sliding.

So I think both play a vital role in stopping power/distance. It simply comes down to what's the weakest link in the system. Feel free to correct me

Oh and re: rotors that shed heat etc...I know a guy who runs a full carbon-carbon setup (not carbon ceramic aka PCCB crap that Porsche has), and he was telling me there is NO modulation whatsoever with the brake pedal. You slightly touch it, and the wheels lock up 100%. The ONLY way to get the car to stop is to run R compounds 24/7. Simply can't use street tires at all.

~Ramy

DamonB

Tires stop the car, period. If the brake system stopped the car then you could stop just as quickly in the rain or snow as you could in the dry. If the brake system is capable of locking the tire on the surface then stopping distances will never decrease; the tire is already at it's limit of traction.

Here's a test that is quite simple on any car with ABS. With stock brakes accelerate the car to 60 mph and stomp the brake pedal hard to activate the ABS. Measure the stopping distance. Now install a big brake kit and repeat the test on the same tires. You'll find the stopping distance to be the same. Why? Because the ABS maintains the tire at its traction limit for us and since both brake systems activate the ABS and hold the tire(s) at the limit of adhesion the instant you stomp the pedal, they both stop in the same distance due to the same tires being on the car. This same test will also prove that brake fluid, brake pads, brake lines, drilled rotors, slotted rotors etc don't stop the car any quicker.

If we were to repeatedly stop or brake the car over and over there will come a point where both systems do a poorer job of converting the kinetic energy of the rotor into heat and heat fade sets in. You can be certain this will happen to the system with the smaller rotors first however. The ability to maintain lower brake temperatures is the advantage to bigger brakes. This pays off as decreased stopping distance only if the small brakes are experiencing heat fade. If the small brakes can be kept within their proper temperature range they will perform just as well as big brakes and they'll do it while be lighter.

You can certainly make brake systems feel differently to the driver and the driver may like those changes as they give him more confidence (or not!), but that does not equal a decreased stopping distance. Once the tire is at the limit of adhesion there is nothing you can do to make the car stop shorter.

DamonB

From Grassroots Motorsports; 1991


Those Poor Rotors

Let's look ot some common rotor "modification" and "performance" upgrades that you may have been exposed to. We'll try to separate the marketing from the engineering: Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool, bigger rotors look sexy, but bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes--which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other ports of the braking system.

Take, for exomple, a Formula 500 racer, a small 800-pound, single-seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3000-pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, installing o GT1 brake package onto our formula car would probably do more harm than good. That's a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the gas pedal is pushed. So the motto of this story is bigger is better until your temperatures are under control. After that point, you are doing more harm than good, unless you really like the look. (And hey, some of us do.)

Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the '40s and 50s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses somewhere to go. It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the some gassing out phenomenon as the early pads.

For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads--sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.

The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors are so oversized that they need to be drilled like Swiss cheese. (Look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car, for an example.) While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember that nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life, at the expense of higher weight. It's all about tradeoffs.

Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?).


In Summary

You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires stop the car.


For further reading please see the entire article, rotors are only a single part of the braking system interface. Everything about brakes

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Ramy, this is true to a point. If the stock brakes cannot provide enough force to lock the tires, then yes you will not be at the braking threshold. Therefore, there is room for improvement for the brakes to get to that threshold.

However, the stock brakes are more than good enough to lock the tires so that's not an issue here. Once you are able to lock the tires and bring the car to the braking threshold, it's all up to the tires as there is nothing else the braking system can do.