Stopin’ on a dime and givin’ change :), parts review
10-26-05, 09:06 AM
#26
Mahjik, I understood Damon's point 100%, but I don't know if he understood mine as you have.
I'm not talking specifically about the FD brakes, since they are - by all means - amazing and very capable. I'm speaking generally, to the brakes vs. tire debate.
Lets give an extreme example. If there were two Toyota LandCruisers (want a large heavy vehicle to demonstrate my point), both had the same stock rims, both wrapped in the exact same tires (R compounds), but one had the stock brakes, and the other had a complete big brake kit, guess what? The one with the big brake kit WILL stop in a shorter distance. Why? Because in the big tire vs. brake argument, it will always come down to the "rate determining step" (as we say in chemistry). What is the weakest link? The tires surely aren't in this case. In BOTH cases, the tires won't slide, because they demonstrate superior traction. The brakes, however, will make a huge difference. The stockers will be overwhelmed in trying to stop a 6,000 lb vehicle from a high rate of speed on a dime, and will simply take a longer time period to completely stop the rotors. The bigger brake kit will be able to stop the rotor in a shorter amount of time (as well as deal w/ the tremendous heat generated) a lot better. Shorter time translates to shorter distance (again, assuming the tires don't give in either situation).
That's all I'm saying...I'm arguing a general principle, that both brakes and tires play a major role in stopping distance. I'm not saying it's FD-specific, because I'm with both of you that the ONLY reason I see getting a bigger brake kit as necessary in an FD is for someone who's an avid roadracer, and will be plowing through turns, on and off the brakes repeatedly, where more efficient heat dissipation will be key. And that's specifically because the stock FD brakes are phenomenal, so the deciding factor here would be stickier tires.
~Ramy
I'm not talking specifically about the FD brakes, since they are - by all means - amazing and very capable. I'm speaking generally, to the brakes vs. tire debate.
Lets give an extreme example. If there were two Toyota LandCruisers (want a large heavy vehicle to demonstrate my point), both had the same stock rims, both wrapped in the exact same tires (R compounds), but one had the stock brakes, and the other had a complete big brake kit, guess what? The one with the big brake kit WILL stop in a shorter distance. Why? Because in the big tire vs. brake argument, it will always come down to the "rate determining step" (as we say in chemistry). What is the weakest link? The tires surely aren't in this case. In BOTH cases, the tires won't slide, because they demonstrate superior traction. The brakes, however, will make a huge difference. The stockers will be overwhelmed in trying to stop a 6,000 lb vehicle from a high rate of speed on a dime, and will simply take a longer time period to completely stop the rotors. The bigger brake kit will be able to stop the rotor in a shorter amount of time (as well as deal w/ the tremendous heat generated) a lot better. Shorter time translates to shorter distance (again, assuming the tires don't give in either situation).
That's all I'm saying...I'm arguing a general principle, that both brakes and tires play a major role in stopping distance. I'm not saying it's FD-specific, because I'm with both of you that the ONLY reason I see getting a bigger brake kit as necessary in an FD is for someone who's an avid roadracer, and will be plowing through turns, on and off the brakes repeatedly, where more efficient heat dissipation will be key. And that's specifically because the stock FD brakes are phenomenal, so the deciding factor here would be stickier tires.
~Ramy
Last edited by FDNewbie; 10-26-05 at 09:09 AM.
10-26-05, 09:37 AM
#27
No one has addressed brake balance (front to rear).
Here is some more info to read....................
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml
Enough good points have been made already, no need to beat a dead horse.
Here is some more info to read....................
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml
Enough good points have been made already, no need to beat a dead horse.
10-26-05, 10:03 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Mahjik, I understood Damon's point 100%, but I don't know if he understood mine as you have.
Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage. Bigger rotors merely function as larger heat sinks. Your Land Cruiser experiment is a made up story that does not exist. I guarantee I can get in a stock Land Cruiser and lock the tires (or activate the ABS) nearly instantly by pressing the brake pedal.
10-26-05, 10:14 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by Sled Driver
No one has addressed brake balance (front to rear).
Food for thought on that as well, most Japanese based big brake kits (Endless, Project Mu, etc) are made with the bais for the 99 spec rear rotors, which are 12.3'' if i recall correctly, as opposed to the stock USDM rear rotors.
Both the RS/RZ and USDM use a 2 piston caliper in the rear, just clearancing for larger rotors on the updated version. Most people on this board have had their calipers upgraded by R. Mandeville to fit larger rotors tho.
10-26-05, 10:27 AM
#30
Originally Posted by DamonB
I did understand you but your perception of the physics is wrong.
Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage. Bigger rotors merely function as larger heat sinks. Your Land Cruiser experiment is a made up story that does not exist. I guarantee I can get in a stock Land Cruiser and lock the tires (or activate the ABS) nearly instantly by pressing the brake pedal.
Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage. Bigger rotors merely function as larger heat sinks. Your Land Cruiser experiment is a made up story that does not exist. I guarantee I can get in a stock Land Cruiser and lock the tires (or activate the ABS) nearly instantly by pressing the brake pedal.
If my physics is flawed (which I wouldn't be surprised if it was), please clarify/explain why.
10-26-05, 11:00 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Bigger and better calipers w/ a larger grabbing surface will stop a car in a shorter distance.
Tire traction determines braking distance. Once you're at the limit of traction you've "hit the wall" for how quickly the vehicle will stop. Read the Grassroots Motorsports article I listed earlier. It's all hashed out there and they do a far better job than I at explaining. Especially read the snipit from that article I posted above about "Those Poor Rotors".
Read all the links I've posted. Anything more and I'll just be repeating myself.
Last edited by DamonB; 10-26-05 at 11:05 AM.
10-26-05, 11:02 AM
#32
development
I'm yet to ride in a FD w/ upgraded brakes or any car that stops faster than mine...I've almost made passenger faint, haha! Brake pedal is almost more fun than the throttle.
stock brakes, hawk pads, super blue fluid, with Pzero Corsa rubber
and a proper functioning (1995) ABS.
stock brakes, hawk pads, super blue fluid, with Pzero Corsa rubber
and a proper functioning (1995) ABS.
10-26-05, 11:17 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by dubulup
I'm yet to ride in a FD w/ upgraded brakes or any car that stops faster than mine...I've almost made passenger faint, haha! Brake pedal is almost more fun than the throttle.
stock brakes, hawk pads, super blue fluid, with Pzero Corsa rubber
and a proper functioning (1995) ABS.
stock brakes, hawk pads, super blue fluid, with Pzero Corsa rubber
and a proper functioning (1995) ABS.
As I would take a friend for a ride for the first time, I'd show them how fast it was, the handling, etc. But then I always concluded "and just as much as it go's fast, it stops fast!" and would really surprise (scare) them with how well the car just immediately slowed down...lol.
10-26-05, 11:30 AM
#34
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I should call this thread “The great brake debate” hahahah
Putting tires aside for a moment, what is the primary job of a vehicles brake system? It is to take the kinetic energy of the cars forward motion, apply friction, and stop the car. For this to happen you need to have a pressure source (master cylinder, hydraulic fluid, and the calipers pistons, etc.). And your friction surfaces (rotor and pads). A bi-product of this friction is heat, the more the friction surfaces heat up the less effective they become over time. So for conditions when brakes are used over a prolonged period of time, the additional heat caused by friction needs to be addressed. This problem can be accomplished in a couple different ways, #1 increasing the size of the rotor. The Endless rotor that I have is 314x32 compared to the stock rotor size at 294x22. This gives us a larger patch of space and more leverage for the pads to grab a hold of, a thicker chunk of metal to absorb the heat, and also allow the surface more time to cool before it is hit again with another batch of friction. #2 Use a different compound of brake pads (yes OE systems can get different pads as well, but either way I did get new pads with this brake system). A different compound of pads will allow for a harder or softer bite on the rotor (depending on situation) and will absorb the heat more efficiently. #3 larger caliper, the Endless caliper has 6 staggered pistons over a larger area. With this staggered piston set up you get an evenly placed clamping force to allow the pads to have equal amount of pressure across the pad (so that not one spot is higher than the other), this also allows for even pad wear. Also the larger caliper will act as a heat sink and pull more heat away from the system.
Other advantages are:
- better pedal feel and feed back from the system.
- Initial response
- All these new components are built with quality materials meant to take and withstand the heat and demand of this sort of stress (no warping, cracking).
- Yes the bling factor (guess I am a ricer hahah
)
I am not disagreeing with you that an OE system can brake from 60-0 just as good (but it will take more effort out of the OE system to do so) but it will fade through out a prolonged period of time. If OE systems were the best than can be I don’t think that professional race teams spend lots of money to use, develop larger brake systems for there cars?
Ok consider the horse dead. I apologize that my post made so many people up set and caused drama in less than 24hrs.
- Dana
Putting tires aside for a moment, what is the primary job of a vehicles brake system? It is to take the kinetic energy of the cars forward motion, apply friction, and stop the car. For this to happen you need to have a pressure source (master cylinder, hydraulic fluid, and the calipers pistons, etc.). And your friction surfaces (rotor and pads). A bi-product of this friction is heat, the more the friction surfaces heat up the less effective they become over time. So for conditions when brakes are used over a prolonged period of time, the additional heat caused by friction needs to be addressed. This problem can be accomplished in a couple different ways, #1 increasing the size of the rotor. The Endless rotor that I have is 314x32 compared to the stock rotor size at 294x22. This gives us a larger patch of space and more leverage for the pads to grab a hold of, a thicker chunk of metal to absorb the heat, and also allow the surface more time to cool before it is hit again with another batch of friction. #2 Use a different compound of brake pads (yes OE systems can get different pads as well, but either way I did get new pads with this brake system). A different compound of pads will allow for a harder or softer bite on the rotor (depending on situation) and will absorb the heat more efficiently. #3 larger caliper, the Endless caliper has 6 staggered pistons over a larger area. With this staggered piston set up you get an evenly placed clamping force to allow the pads to have equal amount of pressure across the pad (so that not one spot is higher than the other), this also allows for even pad wear. Also the larger caliper will act as a heat sink and pull more heat away from the system.
Other advantages are:
- better pedal feel and feed back from the system.
- Initial response
- All these new components are built with quality materials meant to take and withstand the heat and demand of this sort of stress (no warping, cracking).
- Yes the bling factor (guess I am a ricer hahah
)I am not disagreeing with you that an OE system can brake from 60-0 just as good (but it will take more effort out of the OE system to do so) but it will fade through out a prolonged period of time. If OE systems were the best than can be I don’t think that professional race teams spend lots of money to use, develop larger brake systems for there cars?
Ok consider the horse dead. I apologize that my post made so many people up set and caused drama in less than 24hrs.
- Dana
Last edited by Rotary Racer; 10-26-05 at 11:32 AM.
10-26-05, 11:35 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Rotary Racer
I apologize that my post made so many people up set and caused drama in less than 24hrs.
- Dana
- Dana
Name calling and all of this pompous BS is really rediculous. If someone's confident in something they are wrong about, point it out, debate it, done. No need to be an *** about it...goodness...
Nice pics and info
10-26-05, 11:38 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by Rotary Racer
The Endless rotor that I have is 314x32 compared to the stock rotor size at 294x22. This gives us a larger patch of space and more leverage for the pads to grab a hold of, a thicker chunk of metal to absorb the heat, and also allow the surface more time to cool before it is hit again with another batch of friction.
10-26-05, 11:54 AM
#37
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oiiii ve!
ok real world experience..
lets not be internet racers or
magazine racers.
remember guys what one magazine says might be totally contradictory of another.
but anyhow.
Pads make a huge difference. and if one pad has great initial bite.. compared to another
then the stopping distance will be shorter.. why? because of initial bite. if it takes say a millisecond compared to a second..
then that distance will be shortened. by a marginal ammount.. and remember.. that can mean totalling your car and saving your car. Another factor is that the leverage on the rotor with an oversized rotor. Now i know some guys w/ fd's that drift on the stock rear ebrake
they have a hard time locking them, even with a hydraulic setup it is still near impossible. They switch over to a bigger 99 spec rear and they can lock up. So sizing does make a difference. Also with the better pedal pressure of a big brake kit you can actually modulate the pedal more so that if you had abs disengaged or a non working abs car you can actually keep the car at its braking limit. I do wholeheartedly understand that tires are an important factor. although it is not the ONLY factor. i await your responses
Damonb.. i feel that your post is rather useless and refrain from being so uncivil. This is been a pretty good thread with very pertinent information. And by no means is this an attack on you.
ok real world experience..
lets not be internet racers or
magazine racers.
remember guys what one magazine says might be totally contradictory of another.
but anyhow.
Pads make a huge difference. and if one pad has great initial bite.. compared to another
then the stopping distance will be shorter.. why? because of initial bite. if it takes say a millisecond compared to a second..
then that distance will be shortened. by a marginal ammount.. and remember.. that can mean totalling your car and saving your car. Another factor is that the leverage on the rotor with an oversized rotor. Now i know some guys w/ fd's that drift on the stock rear ebrake
they have a hard time locking them, even with a hydraulic setup it is still near impossible. They switch over to a bigger 99 spec rear and they can lock up. So sizing does make a difference. Also with the better pedal pressure of a big brake kit you can actually modulate the pedal more so that if you had abs disengaged or a non working abs car you can actually keep the car at its braking limit. I do wholeheartedly understand that tires are an important factor. although it is not the ONLY factor. i await your responses
Damonb.. i feel that your post is rather useless and refrain from being so uncivil. This is been a pretty good thread with very pertinent information. And by no means is this an attack on you.
10-26-05, 11:59 AM
#38
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Also. I've got one more thing to add to my previous post.
I do not own a Rx7
I own a 350z.
Now. I personally do 100-160 + mph braking stops on a regular basis
whether it be on track or somewhere else (and no you can't flame me for doing it on the street)
I Push the car ofter let us just say that.
The stock brakes are great. But if i am braking from 100+ mph
i cannot lock up because there is not enough leverage on the brakes. but from 90 and under i can easily lock them up. Now i am rolling on 255/40/18 tires front and 295/35/18 rear
Even w/ stock tires i was having hard time locking them up at 120-130
Now i don't know if a FD has the same probems but
a big brake kit will surely help and be able to keep you at your limits at 100+ mph where as stock may not be able to. Just a real world situation that i have noticed.
I do not own a Rx7
I own a 350z.
Now. I personally do 100-160 + mph braking stops on a regular basis
whether it be on track or somewhere else (and no you can't flame me for doing it on the street)
I Push the car ofter let us just say that.
The stock brakes are great. But if i am braking from 100+ mph
i cannot lock up because there is not enough leverage on the brakes. but from 90 and under i can easily lock them up. Now i am rolling on 255/40/18 tires front and 295/35/18 rear
Even w/ stock tires i was having hard time locking them up at 120-130
Now i don't know if a FD has the same probems but
a big brake kit will surely help and be able to keep you at your limits at 100+ mph where as stock may not be able to. Just a real world situation that i have noticed.
10-26-05, 12:13 PM
#40
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A larger diameter rotor, caliper with larger pistons and pads calmping down on the larger diameter rotor (further from the axis) will give you a greater mechanical advantage to halting the rotation. If size made no difference at all (other than thermal dissipation), than I could put 5" rotors, tiny calipers with a 1/4" piston, and I could stop just as well. The mass and traction of a vehicle could overwhelm an undersized braking system. Size is important.
In our cars or any other modern car, the OEM braking system is more than adequately sized for the task at hand. It is very unlikely that one would add enough traction and mass to overwhelm it. In this case, bigger brakes would be capable of providing greater clamping or braking force, but it is irrelevant because you had more than you needed to begin with.
I could understand how larger brakes might feel better, as their greater mechanical clamping advantage should provide more aggressive deceleration for a given pedal pressure.
The most important thing to remember: big brakes do a much better job of filling all the empty space between your OEM rotors and your 18" wheels.
Disclaimer: the above should not construe that I have any idea of what I am talking about.
In our cars or any other modern car, the OEM braking system is more than adequately sized for the task at hand. It is very unlikely that one would add enough traction and mass to overwhelm it. In this case, bigger brakes would be capable of providing greater clamping or braking force, but it is irrelevant because you had more than you needed to begin with.
I could understand how larger brakes might feel better, as their greater mechanical clamping advantage should provide more aggressive deceleration for a given pedal pressure.
The most important thing to remember: big brakes do a much better job of filling all the empty space between your OEM rotors and your 18" wheels.
Disclaimer: the above should not construe that I have any idea of what I am talking about.
10-26-05, 12:18 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by ReadyKW
If size made no difference at all (other than thermal dissipation), than I could put 5" rotors, tiny calipers with a 1/4" piston, and I could stop just as well.
You could certainly make a system that is incapable of locking the tire and of course braking distances would increase, but that was never the context of any big brake discussions here that I'm aware of.
10-26-05, 01:45 PM
#42
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DamonB
"The argument all along has been IF the current brake system can lock the tire than stopping distance cannot be decreased."
Maybe you thought so, thats not the impression I got. I don't think FD Newbie thought so either.
"Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage."
It is not perceived. It may not make a difference, but it is not perceived. Your statement above is non specific and is not true in all circumstances. You just admitted that.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree in regards to our cars, or hell, most cars. But on a general or hypothetical scenario it might not always be the case.
"The argument all along has been IF the current brake system can lock the tire than stopping distance cannot be decreased."
Maybe you thought so, thats not the impression I got. I don't think FD Newbie thought so either.
"Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage."
It is not perceived. It may not make a difference, but it is not perceived. Your statement above is non specific and is not true in all circumstances. You just admitted that.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree in regards to our cars, or hell, most cars. But on a general or hypothetical scenario it might not always be the case.
Last edited by ReadyKW; 10-26-05 at 01:49 PM.
10-26-05, 02:14 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by ReadyKW
DamonB
"The argument all along has been IF the current brake system can lock the tire than stopping distance cannot be decreased."
Maybe you thought so, thats not the impression I got. I don't think FD Newbie thought so either.
"The argument all along has been IF the current brake system can lock the tire than stopping distance cannot be decreased."
Maybe you thought so, thats not the impression I got. I don't think FD Newbie thought so either.
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=14
It's in my first post and all the links to threads and articles I posted. How could there be any other impression?
10-26-05, 03:27 PM
#44
I am the only one qualified to argue with Damon B , and I find it difficult to find a case where he says something to arguing with*. This case is no exception. The stock brakes are capable of instantly locking up the stock rotor, regardless of what tires or wheels are on the car. You cannot do better than that. The only time that the stock brakes are not good enough is during repeated hard braking, such as would occur during road racing. Bigger brakes will perform better in this situation, and ONLY in this situation.
You're welcome Damon
*OK, maybe that thing about small radius turns being faster
, and I find it difficult to find a case where he says something to arguing with*. This case is no exception. The stock brakes are capable of instantly locking up the stock rotor, regardless of what tires or wheels are on the car. You cannot do better than that. The only time that the stock brakes are not good enough is during repeated hard braking, such as would occur during road racing. Bigger brakes will perform better in this situation, and ONLY in this situation.You're welcome Damon
*OK, maybe that thing about small radius turns being faster
Last edited by adam c; 10-26-05 at 03:31 PM.
10-26-05, 03:56 PM
#45
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FDNewbie:
And your reply:
The first sentence is wrong, the last is correct. As FDNewbie said "comes down to what is the weakest link in the system". You choose that the tires will always be the weakest link. If your brakes ever fail, let me know how well the tires stopped the car.
FDNewbie:
And your response:
I disagree. Engaging the brakes impedes the rotation of the wheels. The tires and road provide the coefficient of friction that allow this to slow the car. You need all these things and the weakest link, brakes, tires or road will determine your stopping distance. I got the impression that you were locked on to one set of circumstances and not considering anything else.
So I think both play a vital role in stopping power/distance. It simply comes down to what's the weakest link in the system. Feel free to correct me
Tires stop the car, period. If the brake system stopped the car then you could stop just as quickly in the rain or snow as you could in the dry. If the brake system is capable of locking the tire on the surface then stopping distances will never decrease; the tire is already at it's limit of traction.
FDNewbie:
Mahjik, I understood Damon's point 100%, but I don't know if he understood mine as you have.
I'm not talking specifically about the FD brakes, since they are - by all means - amazing and very capable. I'm speaking generally, to the brakes vs. tire debate.
I'm not talking specifically about the FD brakes, since they are - by all means - amazing and very capable. I'm speaking generally, to the brakes vs. tire debate.
I did understand you but your perception of the physics is wrong.
10-26-05, 04:13 PM
#48
sold--no longer in debt
