Should I get a Power FC or Haltech w/ these mods?
08-02-20, 01:19 AM
#1
FD3S
Thread Starter
Should I get a Power FC or Haltech w/ these mods?
Hi guys, I live in Portland, OR and it's kind of hard to find a good tuner around here.
Currently my car has a HKS downpipe, Tanabe cat-back, and a HKS Bov. Everything else is stock.
Thinking about getting Knights Sport Super U Twin-core SMIC and a AutoExe Ram intake.
My question is, Should I get a newer Power FC and run the base map or get and run a Haltech with a base map (Actually not sure if Haltech comes with a base map to run)?
Any help and insight would be appreciated!
Thank you!
Currently my car has a HKS downpipe, Tanabe cat-back, and a HKS Bov. Everything else is stock.
Thinking about getting Knights Sport Super U Twin-core SMIC and a AutoExe Ram intake.
My question is, Should I get a newer Power FC and run the base map or get and run a Haltech with a base map (Actually not sure if Haltech comes with a base map to run)?
Any help and insight would be appreciated!
Thank you!
08-02-20, 09:52 AM
#2
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with only those mods, the PFC is better, its plug and play haltech is not
08-02-20, 12:08 PM
#3
Haltech offers base maps for rx7s also but in either case the base map is meant to be a starting point from which to tune for your specific car. I don't think you're meant to be left as is.
As a drop in, the pfc will be easier to install although haltech does make pnp harnesses but I have no idea if they're truly pnp, haven't used one.
The advantage of the haltech are the safeties that it offers that the pfc does not; ie fuel pressure, afr, knock. Most of these will require adding new sensors and will need to be setup properly so not very pnp, but when setup they can save your engine when unexpected things happen.
I ran the pfc for years and the car ran great with very little tinkering with it.
As a drop in, the pfc will be easier to install although haltech does make pnp harnesses but I have no idea if they're truly pnp, haven't used one.
The advantage of the haltech are the safeties that it offers that the pfc does not; ie fuel pressure, afr, knock. Most of these will require adding new sensors and will need to be setup properly so not very pnp, but when setup they can save your engine when unexpected things happen.
I ran the pfc for years and the car ran great with very little tinkering with it.
08-02-20, 01:55 PM
#5
RX-7 Bad Ass
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Haltech is way overkill. PowerFC would be perfect for this situation.
Dale
Dale
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GoodfellaFD3S (08-08-20)
08-02-20, 02:20 PM
#6
It honestly depends on what your long term goal for the car is. As the others have said, the PFC is generally friendly to use and install, and works better with the twins than the haltech. But if down the line you would like to upgrade a large portion of the car, say for example large single, change to direct fire, water/meth injection, etc. etc., it may be cheaper in the long run to get a haltech, and get a simple tune from a remote tuner or someone locally nearby, but if those are the only mods you will put on your car, the PFC is easily the better choice. Just something to consider.
08-02-20, 08:55 PM
#7
To expand on what wazway said, consider that you have to get the Haltech Elite 2000 with the plug-n-play kit if you're continuing to run your factory twins.
Which is a few hundred more bucks than your normal Haltech Elite 1000, somewhere just shy of $2k.
Power FC is way cheaper and would work just fine, especially if your fuel system is stock as well. For you, Power FC would be best.
Which is a few hundred more bucks than your normal Haltech Elite 1000, somewhere just shy of $2k.
Power FC is way cheaper and would work just fine, especially if your fuel system is stock as well. For you, Power FC would be best.
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08-02-20, 11:05 PM
#8
FD3S
Thread Starter
Yeah I just plan to run factory twins and motor. My car only has 43k miles and the twins have been rebuilt already.
I like how simple and clean the knights sport SMIC and AutoExe intake look in the engine bay and are a pretty simple drop in mod.
After this I plan on doing dual oil coolers and then water/meth and thats about it.
Just want a reliable healthy car to do a few autocross events.
Is it okay to run the base map on the Power FC hard for autocross days? I just cant find any tuners around my area.
I like how simple and clean the knights sport SMIC and AutoExe intake look in the engine bay and are a pretty simple drop in mod.
After this I plan on doing dual oil coolers and then water/meth and thats about it.
Just want a reliable healthy car to do a few autocross events.
Is it okay to run the base map on the Power FC hard for autocross days? I just cant find any tuners around my area.
08-03-20, 12:40 AM
#9
I'd figure out who is going to do the tuning and let them make the call. Whatever they're used to working with. If you're doing it yourself, PFC is easier to understand.
Base map is fine but your gonna be running rich and will probably backfire. I dunno if I'd track it, but you're safe to drive around.
Base map is fine but your gonna be running rich and will probably backfire. I dunno if I'd track it, but you're safe to drive around.
08-03-20, 09:26 AM
#10
Regardless of what ECU you go with, a base tune is not something you want to keep long term, and if you are serious about pushing your car hard, especially racing it, I would suggest a tune. If you are still near the Portland, OR area, check out this thread that talks about some of the tuners there, or you might ask for recommendations from pineapple racing.
https://www.rx7club.com/nw-rx-7-foru...inton-1129299/
https://www.rx7club.com/nw-rx-7-foru...inton-1129299/
08-03-20, 09:32 AM
#11
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also Arghx has a couple of threads on how to make the PFC better/safer
08-03-20, 09:32 AM
#12
RX-7 Bad Ass
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For your mods you can look into doing a few tweaks to the map and maybe use the FC-Tweak software to fine-tune the map. The PFC map really will be pretty safe with your mods.
There are also remote tuners you can work with to help set things up.
Dale
There are also remote tuners you can work with to help set things up.
Dale
08-03-20, 10:00 AM
#13
Sounds like you already have one though. Why not just do the dual oil coolers, skip the additional engine mods and ECU and spend the money on suspension and other things to improve autocross? Intake + SMIC = more airflow, more boost (without retuning boost control), more fueling required.
I personally trust stock ECU with mostly stock hardware over Power FC and a SMIC without a good local tuner. Unless you want to take the DIY tuning plunge. Stock ECU has knock control and handles the heatsoaking intake air temperature sensor better. The stock intercooler is not good but the stock ECU cuts power basically. The car is slower but the engine is not at risk. If the OMP or something else breaks, you get a check engine light, and diagnostics are thus easier. Stock ECU also compensates for altitude out of the box (it has a barometric pressure sensor and compensation; PFC does not).
I would not put an SMIC and intake on a car and run the base Power FC map. It might be fine and perfectly safe (many have done this), or it might not. Maybe your injectors or fuel pump are marginal. You need to get a wideband to confirm, and then you really need a datalogit box (interface for laptop for Power FC) to get useful logs as wideband, and now you're halfway to tuning it yourself. Either go all in on DIY tuning or don't mod the engine more. There are a lot of resources for DIY tuning, but there's no way around the increased risk and time investment required. Not only that, Power FC idles worse than stock ECU out of the box, so that's one more hassle. Or you might get stuck in the "I just want it to run well enough that I can drive it to X tuner who is 2 hours away." Well then you get there and the guy works on it for 3 hours and you find out you've got such and such hardware issues that need to be addressed, plus he only dyno tunes you in the summer and you're not sure how well it runs in the colder months without checking wideband. It's a rabbit hole.
Take that from someone who has spent a long time helping others tune their Rx-7's. When you mod it to the point that you have to get rid of the stock ECU you're now making a commitment to personally monitor the health of the engine, or you're just rolling the dice that it doesn't break. Either resolve to make that commitment now, or leave it alone. Mazda spent millions on that factory tune.
If autocross is the goal, adding more power and more hassle isn't going to improve your times, it will just give you one more thing to stress about.
I personally trust stock ECU with mostly stock hardware over Power FC and a SMIC without a good local tuner. Unless you want to take the DIY tuning plunge. Stock ECU has knock control and handles the heatsoaking intake air temperature sensor better. The stock intercooler is not good but the stock ECU cuts power basically. The car is slower but the engine is not at risk. If the OMP or something else breaks, you get a check engine light, and diagnostics are thus easier. Stock ECU also compensates for altitude out of the box (it has a barometric pressure sensor and compensation; PFC does not).
I would not put an SMIC and intake on a car and run the base Power FC map. It might be fine and perfectly safe (many have done this), or it might not. Maybe your injectors or fuel pump are marginal. You need to get a wideband to confirm, and then you really need a datalogit box (interface for laptop for Power FC) to get useful logs as wideband, and now you're halfway to tuning it yourself. Either go all in on DIY tuning or don't mod the engine more. There are a lot of resources for DIY tuning, but there's no way around the increased risk and time investment required. Not only that, Power FC idles worse than stock ECU out of the box, so that's one more hassle. Or you might get stuck in the "I just want it to run well enough that I can drive it to X tuner who is 2 hours away." Well then you get there and the guy works on it for 3 hours and you find out you've got such and such hardware issues that need to be addressed, plus he only dyno tunes you in the summer and you're not sure how well it runs in the colder months without checking wideband. It's a rabbit hole.
Take that from someone who has spent a long time helping others tune their Rx-7's. When you mod it to the point that you have to get rid of the stock ECU you're now making a commitment to personally monitor the health of the engine, or you're just rolling the dice that it doesn't break. Either resolve to make that commitment now, or leave it alone. Mazda spent millions on that factory tune.
If autocross is the goal, adding more power and more hassle isn't going to improve your times, it will just give you one more thing to stress about.
Last edited by arghx; 08-03-20 at 10:11 AM.
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saiko88 (08-08-20)
08-03-20, 12:50 PM
#15
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if you bought a Knighsports ECU, you can send it to Knighsports with your mod list and they can reflash it.
the JDM ecu's need the same 4 wires changed that the Power FC does
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gracer7-rx7 (08-04-20)
08-03-20, 06:44 PM
#17
I do. I had a Pettit Unlimited before I went with the PFC It basically makes the car run rich so you can add air-flow mods (exhaust, intake DP) and turn up the boost.
Unlimited allows you to up the boost to 14psi (I believe, it's been a while) and the limited is...limited to 12.
Night and day difference for me, even with the PFC s base map.
Unlimited allows you to up the boost to 14psi (I believe, it's been a while) and the limited is...limited to 12.
Night and day difference for me, even with the PFC s base map.
08-04-20, 08:47 AM
#19
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i should also mention that the JDM tuners move the fan turn on point, and the transition to the secondary turbo gets adjusted too, they had the whole ecu cracked.
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Natey (08-04-20)
08-04-20, 11:15 AM
#20
Rotary Enthusiast
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Here's my 0.2;
With PFC you may or may not be able to use all the fan blower speeds with AC compressor function. This can be a big negative depending on your local conditions. You may also encounter minor driveability issues. On the positive side, you will gain complete elimination of the 3K hesitation, ability to change fan temp controls, etc.
Regarding Pettit and M2 chipped ECM's, I have tried both on my 1995 and they ran great with the exception of having fairly nasty 3,000RPM hesitation. Very rich A/F's with basic mods (SMIC, JDM DP, opened up OEM airbox) even at peak boost, 10.5-10.6 ish ratios. Primary boost was 14+, secondary about 12 and no boost transition dip, just gradually lowers from 14-15psi to 12psi (my 1995 OE ECM has the same behavior but 12-13psi to 10psi). When I had my PFC installed there was a nice 2-3psi drop between primary and secondary. Otherwise it worked okay after I got the AC working on all the fan speeds, then I started getting a tip-in hesitation that I could not stand. I reinstalled my OE 1995 ECM and all the problems went away. the '95 computer has almost zero 3K hesitation once the car warms up, perfect idle, boost control, etc. Also has very safe (rich) A/F's with the same mods, basically the same as the chipped ECM's but with lower peak boost. I would have retained either of the chipped boxes, particularly the M2, if there were not so much 3K hesitation. I think if you could find a box that is based on the 1995 ECM that might be the best of both worlds if you are maintain only basic mods.
I would like to try out an Re-Amemyia Type A ECM, I imagine they did a much better job than the US-based tuners. The only thing holding me back is that I only have access to 91 octane fuel here and I think they are tuned for 100RON, or about 94 AKI. I also wonder about the 3K hesitation, I have not heard about the JDM ECM having this problem...and unlike the US models there was only one part number in Japan up to 1995 as far as I am aware.
I've been toying with the idea of getting a FC-Tweak license and running my map through it, maybe even doing the A/F logging part to see if the boost dip and tip-in issues can be calibrated out. But my car runs so well on the OEM ECM it's hard to get motivated to do the work even though more power would come from it. And there is no denying the value of the OEM diagnostics and safeguards.
With PFC you may or may not be able to use all the fan blower speeds with AC compressor function. This can be a big negative depending on your local conditions. You may also encounter minor driveability issues. On the positive side, you will gain complete elimination of the 3K hesitation, ability to change fan temp controls, etc.
Regarding Pettit and M2 chipped ECM's, I have tried both on my 1995 and they ran great with the exception of having fairly nasty 3,000RPM hesitation. Very rich A/F's with basic mods (SMIC, JDM DP, opened up OEM airbox) even at peak boost, 10.5-10.6 ish ratios. Primary boost was 14+, secondary about 12 and no boost transition dip, just gradually lowers from 14-15psi to 12psi (my 1995 OE ECM has the same behavior but 12-13psi to 10psi). When I had my PFC installed there was a nice 2-3psi drop between primary and secondary. Otherwise it worked okay after I got the AC working on all the fan speeds, then I started getting a tip-in hesitation that I could not stand. I reinstalled my OE 1995 ECM and all the problems went away. the '95 computer has almost zero 3K hesitation once the car warms up, perfect idle, boost control, etc. Also has very safe (rich) A/F's with the same mods, basically the same as the chipped ECM's but with lower peak boost. I would have retained either of the chipped boxes, particularly the M2, if there were not so much 3K hesitation. I think if you could find a box that is based on the 1995 ECM that might be the best of both worlds if you are maintain only basic mods.
I would like to try out an Re-Amemyia Type A ECM, I imagine they did a much better job than the US-based tuners. The only thing holding me back is that I only have access to 91 octane fuel here and I think they are tuned for 100RON, or about 94 AKI. I also wonder about the 3K hesitation, I have not heard about the JDM ECM having this problem...and unlike the US models there was only one part number in Japan up to 1995 as far as I am aware.
I've been toying with the idea of getting a FC-Tweak license and running my map through it, maybe even doing the A/F logging part to see if the boost dip and tip-in issues can be calibrated out. But my car runs so well on the OEM ECM it's hard to get motivated to do the work even though more power would come from it. And there is no denying the value of the OEM diagnostics and safeguards.
08-04-20, 11:39 AM
#21
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Here's my 0.2;
With PFC you may or may not be able to use all the fan blower speeds with AC compressor function. This can be a big negative depending on your local conditions. You may also encounter minor driveability issues. On the positive side, you will gain complete elimination of the 3K hesitation, ability to change fan temp controls, etc.
.
With PFC you may or may not be able to use all the fan blower speeds with AC compressor function. This can be a big negative depending on your local conditions. You may also encounter minor driveability issues. On the positive side, you will gain complete elimination of the 3K hesitation, ability to change fan temp controls, etc.
.
Stock ECU's and chipped ECU's will have the 3000 RPM hesitation. I don't have first hand evidence of the JDM chipped ECU's and how they do with the 3k hesitation, not sure on that. Also with a stock ECU you can't get rid of the air pump unless you want to have a rough idle and harsh on/off throttle due to O2 feedback.
Dale
08-08-20, 12:46 AM
#22
FD3S
Thread Starter
Sounds like you already have one though. Why not just do the dual oil coolers, skip the additional engine mods and ECU and spend the money on suspension and other things to improve autocross? Intake + SMIC = more airflow, more boost (without retuning boost control), more fueling required.
I personally trust stock ECU with mostly stock hardware over Power FC and a SMIC without a good local tuner. Unless you want to take the DIY tuning plunge. Stock ECU has knock control and handles the heatsoaking intake air temperature sensor better. The stock intercooler is not good but the stock ECU cuts power basically. The car is slower but the engine is not at risk. If the OMP or something else breaks, you get a check engine light, and diagnostics are thus easier. Stock ECU also compensates for altitude out of the box (it has a barometric pressure sensor and compensation; PFC does not).
I would not put an SMIC and intake on a car and run the base Power FC map. It might be fine and perfectly safe (many have done this), or it might not. Maybe your injectors or fuel pump are marginal. You need to get a wideband to confirm, and then you really need a datalogit box (interface for laptop for Power FC) to get useful logs as wideband, and now you're halfway to tuning it yourself. Either go all in on DIY tuning or don't mod the engine more. There are a lot of resources for DIY tuning, but there's no way around the increased risk and time investment required. Not only that, Power FC idles worse than stock ECU out of the box, so that's one more hassle. Or you might get stuck in the "I just want it to run well enough that I can drive it to X tuner who is 2 hours away." Well then you get there and the guy works on it for 3 hours and you find out you've got such and such hardware issues that need to be addressed, plus he only dyno tunes you in the summer and you're not sure how well it runs in the colder months without checking wideband. It's a rabbit hole.
Take that from someone who has spent a long time helping others tune their Rx-7's. When you mod it to the point that you have to get rid of the stock ECU you're now making a commitment to personally monitor the health of the engine, or you're just rolling the dice that it doesn't break. Either resolve to make that commitment now, or leave it alone. Mazda spent millions on that factory tune.
If autocross is the goal, adding more power and more hassle isn't going to improve your times, it will just give you one more thing to stress about.
I personally trust stock ECU with mostly stock hardware over Power FC and a SMIC without a good local tuner. Unless you want to take the DIY tuning plunge. Stock ECU has knock control and handles the heatsoaking intake air temperature sensor better. The stock intercooler is not good but the stock ECU cuts power basically. The car is slower but the engine is not at risk. If the OMP or something else breaks, you get a check engine light, and diagnostics are thus easier. Stock ECU also compensates for altitude out of the box (it has a barometric pressure sensor and compensation; PFC does not).
I would not put an SMIC and intake on a car and run the base Power FC map. It might be fine and perfectly safe (many have done this), or it might not. Maybe your injectors or fuel pump are marginal. You need to get a wideband to confirm, and then you really need a datalogit box (interface for laptop for Power FC) to get useful logs as wideband, and now you're halfway to tuning it yourself. Either go all in on DIY tuning or don't mod the engine more. There are a lot of resources for DIY tuning, but there's no way around the increased risk and time investment required. Not only that, Power FC idles worse than stock ECU out of the box, so that's one more hassle. Or you might get stuck in the "I just want it to run well enough that I can drive it to X tuner who is 2 hours away." Well then you get there and the guy works on it for 3 hours and you find out you've got such and such hardware issues that need to be addressed, plus he only dyno tunes you in the summer and you're not sure how well it runs in the colder months without checking wideband. It's a rabbit hole.
Take that from someone who has spent a long time helping others tune their Rx-7's. When you mod it to the point that you have to get rid of the stock ECU you're now making a commitment to personally monitor the health of the engine, or you're just rolling the dice that it doesn't break. Either resolve to make that commitment now, or leave it alone. Mazda spent millions on that factory tune.
If autocross is the goal, adding more power and more hassle isn't going to improve your times, it will just give you one more thing to stress about.
My plan B was to just run dual oil coolers and leave the engine how it is now. I am running fortune coil-overs right now. Maybe get a front strut bar and sway bars?
I did also just install a oil temperature gauge so I'll be monitoring that.
08-08-20, 12:35 PM
#23
Senior Member
Greetings from Eugene! We aren't too far away! So there are a few things to consider and I believe that where you're at is a solid point to just keep some exhaust restriction while running as close to stock boost as possible with the stock ecu. It runs the car very well and only runs in to issues when more boost is involved. I would recommend keeping the stock air intake system as it's insulated and sucks cold air from the front of the car unlike aftermarket systems and will only do you harm. A solid intercooler, dual oil coolers, a nice triple pass radiator and you should be able to love the car for many miles. The PFC has a far better ignition timing map than the Haltech base map. I personally love my Elite and it's just a great ecu if you're willing to spend the money. I would recommend against getting an ecu unless necessary or if you have a tuner to tune your car.
If you need any help, I'm only two hours away and can help out if needed!
If you need any help, I'm only two hours away and can help out if needed!
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saiko88 (08-08-20)
08-08-20, 02:19 PM
#24
FD3S
Thread Starter
Greetings from Eugene! We aren't too far away! So there are a few things to consider and I believe that where you're at is a solid point to just keep some exhaust restriction while running as close to stock boost as possible with the stock ecu. It runs the car very well and only runs in to issues when more boost is involved. I would recommend keeping the stock air intake system as it's insulated and sucks cold air from the front of the car unlike aftermarket systems and will only do you harm. A solid intercooler, dual oil coolers, a nice triple pass radiator and you should be able to love the car for many miles. The PFC has a far better ignition timing map than the Haltech base map. I personally love my Elite and it's just a great ecu if you're willing to spend the money. I would recommend against getting an ecu unless necessary or if you have a tuner to tune your car.
If you need any help, I'm only two hours away and can help out if needed!
If you need any help, I'm only two hours away and can help out if needed!
I'll also PM you my number!
08-11-20, 03:56 PM
#25
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i just passed emissions with the Re-A ECU, in California. the HC and CO came up a tad, but i still had a comfortable margin.