ArmenMAxx

iTrader: (21)

Think its worth mentioning on this forum that in the past 3 months, I have warped two sets of Rxparts seals with mild canyon driving. The second time, EGT's were monitored which never passed 1450. AFRs in the high 10's, 50/50 water meth injection, 1oz per gallon premix with a working OMP. ZERO overheating. This was at 17psi. My previous motor, built by the same shop lasted 12 years using ALS seals. It saw over 25 track days, 100+ canyon drives and countless tunes/dynos. I lost a corner seal on that motor secondary to overboosting on a cold track day. Feel free to comment on what the causes of my warped seals are, but I feel convinced its associated with RxParts and the community should be aware. As y'all could imagine, I am not happy.

At this point, I will either move forward with OEM seals or E&J. My shop primarily uses E&J, however they have also seen a few cases of warped seals with them as well as I-racing due to high EGTs. Bugger

Cheers,
Armen

Valkyrie

It is almost more surprising to me that *any* companies other than Mazda are capable of making reliable apex seals…

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Good to know! That sucks to have to deal with though!

At this point I'm more leaning towards good old Mazda apex seals for a general recommendation. I have a set of ALS seals from 10 years ago in the attic I think that may get used, those things I never heard a bad word on, you could hammer them all day and they just took the abuse.

Wonder if this could be supply chain/shrinkflation type issue? Lots of things it seems like companies are cheaping out on, wonder if their metal supplier is not giving pure or to spec metal or something?

All I know is it's impossible to get an XL T-shirt that fits any more, they all are like 2 inches shorter than they used to be .

Dale

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

IIRC, the RXParts seals are an imported/rebadged Australian seal, and I got wondering if the metallurgy or quality of raw material supply changed somehow. It wouldn't be a surprise given all the global disruptions. I had a set warp, but there were some mitigating factors. They were the first set of non-OEM seals I ever used. I'm on iRotary now, largely on the strength of them being developed by Dr. Ianetti, but if these **** the bed I'm going back to OEM permanently. Especially now with all the safeguards built in the my Haltech engine management, and the fact that the last set lasted for a decade of track use with just a PFC, they are tough to argue with.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"All I know is it's impossible to get an XL T-shirt that fits any more, they all are like 2 inches shorter than they used to be ."

thanks for starting out the New Year w a bit of genuine levity. no doubt there must be a direct correlation between XL T Shirts and non OE apex seals.

gdub29e

iTrader: (16)

I sure did get a good chuckle out of this.

Moving on I have these seals in my current set up. I’m running a very similar tune to the op. ~EGT's never pass 1450. AFRs in the high 10's, 50/50 water meth injection, 1oz per gallon premix with a working OMP.~ the only difference is my egt will touch 1580f and I run 1/2 oz to gal with a working omp. I do not track ever. My previous seals were ALS also ( which I was happy with) and I noticed they gained compression as they bed in and did not drop off for the duration of use. This time around I tried RX parts and they seem OK. But I have noticed with the exact same set up. The compression has started to drop with only a few thousand miles. Time will tell, and I will check them out next teardown. Hot starts are fine, and they are working for the time being.


~ GW

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I have been using the rxparts for over decade and i have been very happy even with very high egts(over 2000F)

i did use them on multiple engines i have built for others and they all seemed great.

I know at some point a new coating on the seals was introduced supposedly making them even better for the housing wear or something like that. I did use those and they seemed just fine but it wasnt on an extreme build running that high egts

whether the material changed in the meantime i do not know but it appears to be a very possible scenario


i had ALS warp a couple of times and one was straight out of the box

TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

still say there has to be more to the story on why some people have issues and others don’t ….







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ArmenMAxx

iTrader: (21)

I have no issue identifying another culprit. As a matter of fact it will ease my mind more however I don't see what else it could be.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

What are you using to ensure the apex seal slot in the rotor and corner seals are perfectly matched to spec?

Because one likely culprit in my mind would be if the seal is binding in any way then it seems logical that this would impart forces on it that could lead to warping



.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

The only reason I'd not say it's a build issue, is that it seems these seals were used quite successfully for a while by multiple builders who presumably didn't forget how to build motors, but it does seem like I've heard of multiple compression loss incidents of late.

That's how mine was. It wasn't catastrophic, it started and ran fine, I even ran my personal best ever lap at VIR with them in low compression condition, but noticed that the car just felt a little "flat" that weekend and had lost a few hundred RPM in spool, so tested it when I got home and found the low numbers. I drove it all summer that way, and ran a session at Watkins Glen that ultimately snapped the transmission main shaft, so it was off for an overhaul.

One thing I HAD done that weekend at VIR was not shift into 5th on the pit straight until after I'd crossed the start/finish, which tach'd the car out to 8k instead of 7500, as it picked me up about a half a second in lap time. The heat on the seal will go up abruptly at higher RPM, and whether it wasn't ideally tuned/oiled for that I don't know, but they should have theoretically survived it. The fact that i had no idea, no logging and no safeguards is what led me to go Haltech.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

and yet some either never have issues at all or possibly aren’t revealing them

I see a few people questioning Iannetti on this forum, but can’t find much any where else. A number of notable engine builders sell and recommend their steel seals. Are they deleting or hiding posts on their FB account? Seems like I asked this before and it was just crickets … 🤔
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ArmenMAxx

iTrader: (21)

I did not build the engine, but I do have faith in the shop that did. They have been in the business for years and hold a good consistent reputation. I can reinforce the seal slot clearance with them this time around nonetheless and appreciate you mentioning something I did not consider.

Yes, mine also was not a catastrophic failure rather a gradual, consistent presentation of low compression symptoms. It did happen quickly though. It holds idle, slightly unstable with low vacuum. Hot starts are pretty hard. Cold start is crisp. On my previous warped motor I did notice in higher elevations up in the canyons it did not want to hold idle.

I cannot stress the abuse I put my old ALS seals through. Improperly set timing, aggressive timing, overly retarded timing, 20min hard track day sessions without water / meth with boost creeping to 17psi top end, back to back dyno sessions. The one thing I kept consistent was my safe AFR's which were usually high 10's.

Attached are my plugs once low compression symptoms began this last time. If anything it seems to be running rich as hell.

NoMiEzVR4

sucks to hear. Keep us posted on what happens with this

TeamRX8

iTrader: (2)

as per the video; it’s not just the slot in the rotor, but as specifically pointed out the rotors not being perfectly machined by Mazda and the side seals needing to be cut for each position, so too the alignment of the rotor slot and the corner seal slot is off for the same reason. And if you don’t have one of those diamond faced slot files and are going though checking each one then as he stated is when it get’s dodgy.

The thing to consider is that possibly the rotor machining is further off now than before and it possibly wasn’t an issue as much before as now. Because honestly I don’t see or hear of anyone much using one of those tools, yet I have no way to know who is or isn’t. We’re also seeing more people push the engine further and further now than say 10 years ago as technology advances; turbos, ecus, eth&meth, etc. It’s not necessarily a catastrophic scenario, but possibly exacerbated as carbon builds up.

but again, I’m just trying to get my head around why some people have this issue while others don’t.
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Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

Were there any other changes besides the engine seals?

DaveW

No direct experience, but...
I had a broken piston ring (actually occurred on the dyno at a very reputable engine builder) on my racecar engine due to too small an end gap. Too small an end gap on a rotary tip seal would likely make it buckle due to thermal expansion and warp.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the seals have 3 dimensions, the manual only has you measure 2.

ArmenMAxx

iTrader: (21)

New housings, lapped/nitride treated irons from chips, balanced and clearance used rotors, turblown stud kit.

On the first teardown we also noticed this. Water temps never exceeded 89c.

AlexG13B

iTrader: (7)

for the guys suggesting oem seals, u still suggest for builds between 400 and 500hp?

also to OP what stand alone are you using? been hearing some issues with haltech and some aftermarket seals being warped

Valkyrie

On a side note, are OEM seals still three piece, or did they go to two piece? Or is there an option for both?

Hopefully I won't need any for... a while. Rebuilds are just too damn expensive now.

aplscrambles

iTrader: (7)

Eerily similar to @Djseto issues last year with i-rotary seals. I think hes low compression again on a 3rd rebuild..

aplscrambles

iTrader: (7)

This also.. I can name 3 people who switched from powerFC to Haltech then had major engine issues. Don't shoot the messenger, just an observation. Also wondering about the apex seals too...My goopy seals are holding good compression on my 8374/powerfc FD for the last 4 years now, hope I don't ever wish I'd gone oem, *knocking on wood*

Molotovman

iTrader: (49)

I had made a post on a social media app about this and found no consistent theme. Some people making the switch had issues, others had none. I know that @Howard Coleman hypothesized that @Djseto 's issues were due to a lack of AI and high IAT's so He's installed AI.

I put almost 12k miles on my 8374/PFC setup with no major issues boosting to 16#. I had repeated issue with spark plugs backing out and had an issue due to a loose wiring connection where my car would hammer on the boost control solenoid for a little while after tuning. I pulled the engine for paint and right before it tested mid to high 90's hot with one face at 70 due to a stuck side seal.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I'm just not seeing how any particular ECU would cause such a failure. It's job is to supply fuel and spark, run the OMP, and monitor parameters. Any hickups in fuel/spark/temps, etc., would show on monitoring or logs. The only thing I could think of is it not running the OMP right (maybe a software update gone wrong?), and that is not showing up as a failure in the system.

FWIW, my RXparts seals warped while running a PFC, but the mitigating circumstance is I had recurring OMP nozzle failures that I thought I'd solved finally, but car was premixed to 1oz/gallon the whole time regardless. RXparts and the iRacing do require a lot of lubrication, indicating they are more sensitive to heat, so a deficiency in that area (somehow), would be a likely culprit.

It would be interesting to see if all thew failures occurred on cars with OMPs where the premix ratio is based on there being one working properly.