Rx7 Oil Change
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From: MN
Rx7 Oil Change
Does Anyone Know If Using Redline Synthetic Oil In A 93 Rx7 Is Healthy ? Its Been In This Car For 2000 Miles And Thinking Of Switching Back To Regular Oil...........is This Ok To Do? Thanks
I
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: Pittsburgh
eeeeeee.... this is a tough topic
honestly the best advice I can give you would be to search there is a huge 5 page thread on synthetic and regular oil that will give you a lot of info.
Basically it boils down to whatever personal preference. The owners manual says to use regular non-synth oil but a lot of tuners use a pure synth oil nowadays, its hard to decide one over another.
Or you can do what I do and just be idemitsu cause you cant decide between the rest lol, idemitsu is an oil designed specifically for rotaries, the guys that rebuilt my engine recommended it to me. You can buy it from rotor sports racing, I know they are a dealer - search google for that name and you should get their website
gg
honestly the best advice I can give you would be to search there is a huge 5 page thread on synthetic and regular oil that will give you a lot of info.
Basically it boils down to whatever personal preference. The owners manual says to use regular non-synth oil but a lot of tuners use a pure synth oil nowadays, its hard to decide one over another.
Or you can do what I do and just be idemitsu cause you cant decide between the rest lol, idemitsu is an oil designed specifically for rotaries, the guys that rebuilt my engine recommended it to me. You can buy it from rotor sports racing, I know they are a dealer - search google for that name and you should get their website
gg
The main reason you should never use synthetic oil in a rotary is because it virtually does not burn at cooler temperature which is what a rotary engine was actually designed to do via the oil metering pump for startup and running lubrication. Some tuners say to bypass the pump and run a two stroke oil/gas mix while others say to hook up a reservoir to it and eliminate the sump feed. Either way it all boils down to the fact that synthetic motor oils cause harmful buildup on the apex seals which can lead to low compression and premature housing damage necessitating a costly rebuild. I am no god on this subject but I strongly caution you from synthetics as my engine was the victum of such an oil.. I now run standard 10w 40 or if your hellbent on easy starting in the winter a synthetic blend is somewhat acceptable. I hope I have been somewhat helpful in this matter.
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From: San Lorenzo, California
Originally Posted by RX7cowboy2005
The main reason you should never use synthetic oil in a rotary is because it virtually does not burn at cooler temperature which is what a rotary engine was actually designed to do via the oil metering pump for startup and running lubrication. Some tuners say to bypass the pump and run a two stroke oil/gas mix while others say to hook up a reservoir to it and eliminate the sump feed. Either way it all boils down to the fact that synthetic motor oils cause harmful buildup on the apex seals which can lead to low compression and premature housing damage necessitating a costly rebuild. I am no god on this subject but I strongly caution you from synthetics as my engine was the victum of such an oil.. I now run standard 10w 40 or if your hellbent on easy starting in the winter a synthetic blend is somewhat acceptable. I hope I have been somewhat helpful in this matter.
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reliable performance
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: MA, USA
Oh, this goes on forever doesn't it? I've heard all the arugments for years now. When the RX-8 first came out I checked. Mazda says not to use synthetic oil in that recently developed rotary engine. For me at least, that's enough to tip the balance in favor of dino oil and 3,000 mile oil changes.
And yeah, yeah I have the documentation (although I"m hoping I won't have to go diving into my extensive files to fish it out. )
And yeah, yeah I have the documentation (although I"m hoping I won't have to go diving into my extensive files to fish it out. )
Rotors, turbos, and brass
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Pittsburg, KS
Use what you want, most problems with our cars stem from other gremlins. Some say synthetic is better for the turbos, some say dino is better for the motor, and vice versa.
Last edited by Sickass7; Jan 31, 2005 at 11:27 PM. Reason: wrong info
reliable performance
Joined: Feb 2001
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From: MA, USA
Originally Posted by JConn2299
When the RX-8 first came out I checked. Mazda says not to use synthetic oil in that recently developed rotary engine. For me at least, that's enough to tip the balance in favor of dino oil and 3,000 mile oil changes.
And yeah, yeah I have the documentation (although I"m hoping I won't have to go diving into my extensive files to fish it out. )
And yeah, yeah I have the documentation (although I"m hoping I won't have to go diving into my extensive files to fish it out. )
I was afraid someone would ask and send me digging into the files, and sure enough they did. Fortunately, it wasn't too hard to find.
I went to a special preview of the RX-8 at the local dealership. The oil question was one of the first things I wanted to know. I went digging through the glovecompartment and found a pamphlet called the Mazda RX-8 Drivers Guide.
With the permission of the salesman, I was allowed to take it home. I'll post a scanned image of the relevant section later if I get time. Here's what it says:
"By design, rotary engines consume a small amount of engine oil to lubricate internal engine components. Use the oil dipstick to inspect the oil level when refueling, and if the level is near or below Low, add enough oil to bring the level to Full.
Add only non-synthetic 5w-20 engine oil with SL or ILSAC on the container label. For added safety, an engine oil level warning light on the instrument panel will indicate low engine oil level."
This was for the RX-8, but the FD RX-7 owner's manual also warns again the use of synthetic oil. The viscosity for the RX-7 is prescribed to be 10w-30 or 5w30 depending on the prevailing temperature.
You'll hear all sorts of opinions, and anybody can do what they want with their own car, but I've played it conservative and I figure if the Mazda engineers have specifically warned against using synthetic, then I probably won't go too far wrong by following their recommendation.
Originally Posted by JConn2299
I was afraid someone would ask and send me digging into the files, and sure enough they did. Fortunately, it wasn't too hard to find.
I went to a special preview of the RX-8 at the local dealership. The oil question was one of the first things I wanted to know. I went digging through the glovecompartment and found a pamphlet called the Mazda RX-8 Drivers Guide.
With the permission of the salesman, I was allowed to take it home. I'll post a scanned image of the relevant section later if I get time. Here's what it says:
"By design, rotary engines consume a small amount of engine oil to lubricate internal engine components. Use the oil dipstick to inspect the oil level when refueling, and if the level is near or below Low, add enough oil to bring the level to Full.
Add only non-synthetic 5w-20 engine oil with SL or ILSAC on the container label. For added safety, an engine oil level warning light on the instrument panel will indicate low engine oil level."
This was for the RX-8, but the FD RX-7 owner's manual also warns again the use of synthetic oil. The viscosity for the RX-7 is prescribed to be 10w-30 or 5w30 depending on the prevailing temperature.
You'll hear all sorts of opinions, and anybody can do what they want with their own car, but I've played it conservative and I figure if the Mazda engineers have specifically warned against using synthetic, then I probably won't go too far wrong by following their recommendation.
I went to a special preview of the RX-8 at the local dealership. The oil question was one of the first things I wanted to know. I went digging through the glovecompartment and found a pamphlet called the Mazda RX-8 Drivers Guide.
With the permission of the salesman, I was allowed to take it home. I'll post a scanned image of the relevant section later if I get time. Here's what it says:
"By design, rotary engines consume a small amount of engine oil to lubricate internal engine components. Use the oil dipstick to inspect the oil level when refueling, and if the level is near or below Low, add enough oil to bring the level to Full.
Add only non-synthetic 5w-20 engine oil with SL or ILSAC on the container label. For added safety, an engine oil level warning light on the instrument panel will indicate low engine oil level."
This was for the RX-8, but the FD RX-7 owner's manual also warns again the use of synthetic oil. The viscosity for the RX-7 is prescribed to be 10w-30 or 5w30 depending on the prevailing temperature.
You'll hear all sorts of opinions, and anybody can do what they want with their own car, but I've played it conservative and I figure if the Mazda engineers have specifically warned against using synthetic, then I probably won't go too far wrong by following their recommendation.
Well I read that the Mazda race teams all(or some of the higher end ones) use synthetic in their rotaries, so....? Also Ive read the whole legal issue story about what happend with use of synth in the first rotaries...This is an arguement that will never end, but it doesnt really matter, people use synth and never have a problem, its basically what you wanna do.
reliable performance
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 383
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From: MA, USA
Originally Posted by MakoRacing
Well I read that the Mazda race teams all(or some of the higher end ones) use synthetic in their rotaries, so....? Also Ive read the whole legal issue story about what happend with use of synth in the first rotaries...This is an arguement that will never end, but it doesnt really matter, people use synth and never have a problem, its basically what you wanna do.
Racing engines are built to win races not last 100,000 miles or more. So what works in racing may not be the best for an everyday car.
There's more I could say on this, but I don't really care what people do with their own cars. I will put out some information that I know, and people can do with it what they will and draw their own inferences.
I
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 599
Likes: 0
From: Pittsburgh
what about idemitsu thats a full synthetic oil and designed just for rotaries, are you saying that is a bad oil?
I dont see why they would design an oil specifically for rotary engines and have it synthetic if synth oil was harmful. I asked the guys that rebuilt my engine what oil they would suggest - they said you can go synth or dino and it all boils down to a matter of he says she says, but if you want to be absolutely safe go with this oil made just for rotaries. Its damn expensive so it better be good.
I think someone should lock this topic before it turns into yet another 5 page oil argument :\
I dont see why they would design an oil specifically for rotary engines and have it synthetic if synth oil was harmful. I asked the guys that rebuilt my engine what oil they would suggest - they said you can go synth or dino and it all boils down to a matter of he says she says, but if you want to be absolutely safe go with this oil made just for rotaries. Its damn expensive so it better be good.
I think someone should lock this topic before it turns into yet another 5 page oil argument :\
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:-) neil
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:-) neil
========
Originally posted by ekrampitzjr:
[QB] I have been living and breathing rotaries for 25 years and hope to write a new book on the rotary eventually.
I have an owner's manual for the 1994 RX-7, which explicitly states more than once not to use synthetic. The issue seems to be that certain synthetics--I suspect "brand M"--leave too much ash after burning, partly because of the basic chemistry of the oil and partly because of the detergent and additive package. Ash leads to hot spots, which leads to detonation, which will kill a rotary even more quickly than it will a piston engine.
Mazdaspeed, Mazda's performance shop, offers a street version of the special synthetic oil that was used in the Mazda 787B racer that won Le Mans in 1991. This stuff runs about $34 a liter (about a quart), and if memory serves, it uses polyolefin chemistry. Others have successfully used Red Line, which is polyol ester based. Clearly some synthetics can be used without problems, but Mazda wants to play it safe.
59 Vetteman, your '74 RX-4 did not use a catalytic converter. No Mazda did until after 1979. Your car and other US-spec Mazdas of the '70s used a device called a thermal reactor, which took the place of a conventional exhaust manifold. Yes, it would get hot. Its purpose was to provide the burning fuel and air mixture leaving the engine a place to finish burning. Contrary to popular belief, the Mazda rotaries sold here were among the cleanest engines available on cars in the US. Mazda didn't have to use catalysts until years after everyone else. (I believe that BMW was one of the few others to use thermal reactors on US-spec cars.)
The sealing issues were licked by the early 1970s. If they hadn't been, there would have been no way to make the Wankel meet the pollution standards of the '80s and '90s. Mazda restricted the rotary to the RX-7 in most markets because of what it told a British car magazine was "lazy maintenance" in the US, and this decision was wise. RX-7 owners regularly report getting well over 150,000 miles before overhauls, in part because sports car owners maintain their vehicles. GM's problems were allegedly with cracking around the spark plug holes. I and other observers suspect that the real problem was the "not-invented-here" syndrome, as Mazda is a much smaller company than GM but was able to make the rotary work.
The issue about the rotary having a disadvantageous surface area to volume ratio is true, but this can be worked around. And for related reasons of geometry, the rotary is ideal for stratified charge applications, as Rotary Power International has been demonstrating with prototypes for some years, and for hydrogen fuel, as Mazda has repeatedly shown.
But in a nutshell, Mazda says not to use synthetics because of ash and detonation issues with certain brands. [/QB]
[QB] I have been living and breathing rotaries for 25 years and hope to write a new book on the rotary eventually.
I have an owner's manual for the 1994 RX-7, which explicitly states more than once not to use synthetic. The issue seems to be that certain synthetics--I suspect "brand M"--leave too much ash after burning, partly because of the basic chemistry of the oil and partly because of the detergent and additive package. Ash leads to hot spots, which leads to detonation, which will kill a rotary even more quickly than it will a piston engine.
Mazdaspeed, Mazda's performance shop, offers a street version of the special synthetic oil that was used in the Mazda 787B racer that won Le Mans in 1991. This stuff runs about $34 a liter (about a quart), and if memory serves, it uses polyolefin chemistry. Others have successfully used Red Line, which is polyol ester based. Clearly some synthetics can be used without problems, but Mazda wants to play it safe.
59 Vetteman, your '74 RX-4 did not use a catalytic converter. No Mazda did until after 1979. Your car and other US-spec Mazdas of the '70s used a device called a thermal reactor, which took the place of a conventional exhaust manifold. Yes, it would get hot. Its purpose was to provide the burning fuel and air mixture leaving the engine a place to finish burning. Contrary to popular belief, the Mazda rotaries sold here were among the cleanest engines available on cars in the US. Mazda didn't have to use catalysts until years after everyone else. (I believe that BMW was one of the few others to use thermal reactors on US-spec cars.)
The sealing issues were licked by the early 1970s. If they hadn't been, there would have been no way to make the Wankel meet the pollution standards of the '80s and '90s. Mazda restricted the rotary to the RX-7 in most markets because of what it told a British car magazine was "lazy maintenance" in the US, and this decision was wise. RX-7 owners regularly report getting well over 150,000 miles before overhauls, in part because sports car owners maintain their vehicles. GM's problems were allegedly with cracking around the spark plug holes. I and other observers suspect that the real problem was the "not-invented-here" syndrome, as Mazda is a much smaller company than GM but was able to make the rotary work.
The issue about the rotary having a disadvantageous surface area to volume ratio is true, but this can be worked around. And for related reasons of geometry, the rotary is ideal for stratified charge applications, as Rotary Power International has been demonstrating with prototypes for some years, and for hydrogen fuel, as Mazda has repeatedly shown.
But in a nutshell, Mazda says not to use synthetics because of ash and detonation issues with certain brands. [/QB]
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From: Dallas
Originally Posted by Meiogirl
whats the point in using synthetic if you change every 3000, like the fossil kind?
Yes synthetic is better but it's almost like splitting hairs. Dino oil is still mighty excellent stuff, especially if you're changing it so often that it doesn't get a chance to break down.
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