RX-8 engine recall
08-22-06, 08:17 PM
#1
RX-8 engine recall
After making fun of the FD engine problems, msome RX-8 owners are going to have to eat crow and have the same thing done.
You get the jist of it here:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=recall
Sounds like the engine wasn't injecting enough oil via the OMP, something we've known about since 89 when they went to the electronic OMP. The test is a vacumm test to see if it's pulling enough vacuum and also a test drive. A reflash of the ecu that includes upper the amount oil the OMP injects.
Sucks for any rotary owner to here of this again.
Tim
You get the jist of it here:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=recall
Sounds like the engine wasn't injecting enough oil via the OMP, something we've known about since 89 when they went to the electronic OMP. The test is a vacumm test to see if it's pulling enough vacuum and also a test drive. A reflash of the ecu that includes upper the amount oil the OMP injects.
Sucks for any rotary owner to here of this again.
Tim
Last edited by Tim Benton; 08-22-06 at 08:25 PM.
08-22-06, 09:13 PM
#5
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I think it's the owners putting regular gas and "never" checking the oil when they should be checking twice/three times a pisston engine that they never check anyhow. How are they not explained this upon purchase?
08-22-06, 09:41 PM
#6
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think a big problem is the dealers.. (i work at one) unfortunately the dealers dont' wanna get dino oil just for rx8's. i bet the main problem is the fact that so many ppl wanan throw synth or synth blend oils in there and are ******* the engines up. even at my dealer i've requested to order a few cases of dino oil... and they say "use the store oil, it's cheaper (no name brand crap oil) and less headache. " and he was a mnao regional rep.... so i can imagine what the other dealers use or say. it sucks. but as always american mazda dealers ******* suck. **** i'm the only tech willing to actually work and fix rx8 problems instead of throwing parts at em... sad really. but i did notice they use alot less oil then the rew engine... all the msp13b's that i've seen with consisten oil changes are about a quart low after 3-4k miles when it's time for the next oil change..... always thought that was strange... but if i remember correctly mazda just put out a new PCM (ecu) Internal Bulletin to reprogram all rx8's with the new maps wich include increase in OMP Injection... i say they put a 1-2 qrt. canister you drop 2 stroke in and **** it. would solve soo.... many problems... ha. i'll keep an eye out about it.
Later...
Los
Later...
Los
08-22-06, 10:12 PM
#7
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The recall will be released soon, and is targetted mainly toward automatic 4-port cars in hotter climates (nameingly: Las Vegas, where a VAST majority of automatic RX8's are failing...daily).
Mazda tech's have been overfilling the oil just because of that fact: the owners DO NOT check their oil. There are a few who literally think the oil does NOT drop, and NEVER has to be changed, because it is a rotary.....
It's a sad scene.
Mazda tech's have been overfilling the oil just because of that fact: the owners DO NOT check their oil. There are a few who literally think the oil does NOT drop, and NEVER has to be changed, because it is a rotary.....
It's a sad scene.
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08-22-06, 10:14 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Nat6c
i say they put a 1-2 qrt. canister you drop 2 stroke in and **** it. would solve soo.... many problems.
the only way mazda could market the rotary in todays market is to make it just as easy to maintain as a piston engine. mazda must know the oil injection system is a gamble. the problem: how are you going to convince all the buyers to stock up on TCW3 and look like a wierdo (as i do) at the pump? you can't...
the MSP is a brilliant idea and with proper lubrication would regularly outlast a piston engine. unfortunately mazda had to compromise again with an OMP. i mean, how many people blow side seals?
i wonder why these motors are losing compression... on earlier 13b's it's usually the rotor housing/apex seal contact area. are these the same?
08-22-06, 10:26 PM
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One can only hope that this doesnt make the public's view of rotarys more negative. Simple ignorance of a few key differences between powerplants could once again be the usdm rotary downfall.
Maybe there should be a mechanical aptitude test to own one?
Maybe there should be a mechanical aptitude test to own one?
08-22-06, 11:43 PM
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I read the first 26 pages so u don't have to. Here is what inquiring minds would like to know:
MONTEREY, Calif. -- After suffering a black eye from disclosing that it won't count RX-8 owners' opinions in its internal customer-satisfaction scores, Mazda says it may have to replace the engines in many of its flagship sports cars.
The voluntary recall of all 2004 and 2005 vehicles, and some 2006s, is expected to be announced this week or next. It involves damage to the catalyst resulting from oil leaks in the RX-8's rotary engine.
Any engine that does not pass a vacuum test must be replaced, said Robert Davis, head of product development and quality at Mazda North American Operations.
Engines prone to failing the test are mostly in hot climates and use synthetic oils.
Mazda also will check each RX-8's battery and starter, which tend to fail in cold climates.
"We're going to give these cars the white-glove treatment," Davis said. "We would rather replace the engine than have the dealer crack them open."
RotaryGod
Oil leaks? Issues with synthetics? I don't see how. It probably goes back to why Yamamoto-san told me that he doesn't like all synthetics, specifically Mobil 1 (the most widely used synthetic in the world), while some such as Royal Purple, Valvoline, and Idemitsu are fine. I personally see this as just an excuse to get around the issue at hand and will continue to use synthetics in my car. Remember I use them in a 13B which Mazda specifically says not to use synthetics in due to potential issues with rubber seals. After several years, I am prooud to say that on Royap Purple, I have had no issues.
I wonder what Mazda will think of next? Before anyone freaks out over yet more news from the company that changes their minds more than our politicians, if you are uncomfortable using synthetics, then don't. It's that simple. If you are worried about your engine, get it checked. You may get a new fresh one out of it for whatever reason! I wouldn't argue with that.
RotaryGod
Originally Posted by tiggerlee
Not trying to take this thread off topic but what's the 411 on the Mobil 1 RG? I just bought a GTO last week and GM suggests using Mobil 1 exclusively in it.
Should I go with RP or another brand instead?
He didn't get into specifics because he speaks very broken english. All I know is that he doesn't like it in rotaries.
j9fd3s
there is another reflash. this one opens the metering pump more
zoom44
You can see now why those TSBs have come out in Europe and Australia. There are certain types of Synthetics (sorry Fred its true) that they have seen contributing to the Issue with failing engines in the hotter areas (Vegas Lubbock Phoenix etc) and why i posted that bit the other day with Mazda having oil samples from each dealership. It is less costly for Mazda to say "no synthetics" than to pay for testing of all the various synthetics to say which ones are ok or not. Is Royal Purple ok? yeah no doubt as i know those guys have actually tested their oil in rotaries. Up to you to decide if you wish to risk your warranty.
...
Itd be nice if they could do the type of longevity and cooling improvement work i heard about this weekend which will be available from a certain well known rotary house in Georgia. I doubt the Delco people could tho.
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j9fd3s
its a regional problem, apparently high heat, low humidity areas are the problem. in the SF bay area, we havent seen any of the problems they are talking about
zoom44
actually sorry to impune Delco- its Delphi in North Carolina that is the entity who does the remans.
RotaryGod
I wish for once Mazda would jsut come out and say exactly what is wrong. They seem to answer questions by giving us more to ask. If there is a seal issue, I want them to say why. I don't want to hear it's because of synthetic oils. Which ones? I guarantee that I can find some conventionals that won't do an engine any good.
No matter what the issue is with Mazda, they always beat around the bush when it comes to answers. I for one would rather them come forward and say they screwed up at during engine building or there is a design flaw rather than new excuses, bulletins, and flashes that seem to fix nothing. We've heard it all before. An engine replacement is pretty serious stuff. If so many are having issues, you can't tell me it's because of what oils some people are using. This would have happened with the RX-7's too and it didn't. It's a manufacturing issue or an oil metering issue. That's all it can be that would warrant so many changes that don't do anything. This is their last resort that will hopefully solve the problem. I wonder what they'll do when it doesn't?
zoom44
fred- they havent done anything previously to address this issue. also they are not blaming a synthetic oil for this issue- the point is that some synthetic oils have been shown to be a contributing factor. they dont cause the problem but can exacerbate the situation. that pic in the european bulletin is from a US engine. they cant come out and say "dont use Brand X" because then they would get drawn in to a protracted legal battle with Brand X.
the remans are definetly a concern. because if its oil flow due to a casting issue then obviously that wont fix it.
zoom44
mx6 2 rx8:
no because the motors arent bad right off the lot. its a cumulative issue caused by traffic hot temps low humidity low rev driving and HOT OIL. cars on the lot havent face those issues yet
zoom44
what is a piston- slamming it wouldnt hurt the engine- you want anew engine? go sit in traffic with only one oil cooler for several hours every day for a week when the air temp is over 100 and the temp being read at the road surface is over 200.
rkostolni
I remember a post from Judge Ito some time ago regarding premature wear of the side seals resulting in a loss of compression. He claimed then that there was some type of engineering flaw in the engine. This is probably unrelated, but you never know.
RotaryGod
Mazda already knows of the potential for carbon buildup in this engine. The proof of that is in the shape of the closing edge of the exhaust ports and the wedge shape of the side seals. You know they did all of their testing on conventional "genuine Mazda oil" yet they still have carbon issues and have always had them. These problems are nothing new. It is just them coming around and finally admitting that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with. Back in the 70's, Mazda experimented with the side exhaust port but did not do it. Why? They had carbon issues that resulted in carbon collecting in the ports and breaking seals. You know they used conventional oils back then too as practically everyone did. The modern day solution to it was to use more accurate oil metering techniques than just dumping it down the carb like the old cars in the 70's, wedge shaped side seals to help remove any carbon buildup from sticking them in place, and the gradual closing edge shape on the exhaust ports to help scrape away any carbon. None of this is a new issue and none of it is a problem that didn't exist before synthetic oils. That is just their scapegoat for it.
Come on Mazda, just admit what the problem really is and make us all happy.
RotaryGod
Yamamoto-san specifically said last year at Sevenstock that RP was one of the good synthetics to use in the rotary. He did say not to use Mobil 1 but did not say why. I've used RP for years with no issues. So have many others and so has Racing Beat. Don't sweat it.
We need to ask ourselves something very important. If there are certain oil companies out there that make synthetics that we shouldn't be using due to carbon deposits, should you really feel any better by using that same brand's conventional oils??? That would scare me. It's not the base stock that makes and oil an oil. It's the additive package. It is many of these that are leaving the deposits. I'd be scared to use any oil from any certain company if one of them were found to cause problems.
As we all know, I have and always will endorse Royal Purple. My favorite conventional oil though is Havoline.
ibfubar2000
WOW 11 pages of speculation in 1 day. Its amazing what will happen on the web. When a lot of people start rumors. Let me clarify a few things. YES there is a new recall coming out. #4206F we do not have any paper info on it yet. YES there was a webinar (like a seminar but online) that every Mazda tech, service manager and service advisor was supposed to listen in on, it was an hour long webinar last Thursday/Friday. No not every car is going to get a new engine. mazda predicts less then 1% of vehicle will need a new engine. less then 5% will need a new catalytic converter but 100% will need a new flash, even if you had a flash 1-2 weeks ago, you will need another new flash. The test takes about on hour or so to do for each vehicle, expect your car to be down 2-3 hours though depending on how busy the dealer is that day. The cars are being tested for lack of power. the cars will be tested at high RPM to see if the RPMs drop rapidly, yes high RPM but they will be driven safely (lets not start speculating on the certified technicians damaging your engine because of high RPMs either)if the RPMs drops rapidly for no reason, ie your foot is still on the pedal, then you will get a new engine, if it does not drop you will not. If you have had experience in the past where your car has lost power then perhaps you are the 1% that will need an engine if you have never had a loss of power then you will just get a new flash. All Rx8 owners will get a letter in the mail next week (Aug 28th they get mailed to customers) DO NOT KAMIKAZE YOUR ENGINE!! DO NOT SABOTAGE YOUR ENGINE!! DO NOT PUT SYNTHITIC OIL IN YOUR ENGINE AND JUST EXPECT TO GET A NEW ONE BECUASE IF YOUR CAR DOES NOT HAVE ANY OF THE PROBLEMS MENTIONED ON THE RECALL YOU WILL NOT GET A NEW ENGINE AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR A NEW ONE YOURSELF.
Yes it is a recall and EVERY car will be covered under warranty FOR THE RECALL.
I would really like to just say relax right now and just wait until next week when the recall actually comes out and PLEASE PLEASE STOP SPECULATING AND/OR TELLING PEOPLE THAT EVERY ENGINE WILL BE REPLACED BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE CASE! Just relax and enjoy driving your RX8 like you always have.
Originally Posted by ibfubar2000
The cars are being tested for lack of power. the cars will be tested at high RPM to see if the RPMs drop rapidly...if the RPMs drops rapidly for no reason, ie your foot is still on the pedal, then you will get a new engine, if it does not drop you will not. If you have had experience in the past where your car has lost power then perhaps you are the 1% that will need an engine...
this has been the on going problem I have had with the car for the last 1 year/12000 miles.....the cars rpm drop and power cuts out.....but it doesnt do it all the time, only after sitting in traffic/getting hot from driving at low speed in hot weather (Orlando, FL). Even then it only does it SOME times.......
because it only happens some times, the dealer can never find it....they experienced it 1 time and replaced the engine (the engine checked out prior to replacement with PERFECT crompression according to the tech...but they still felt the need to replace it. After replacement the car still did the same thing so they replaced the fuel injector wiring harness cause the current one had a short in it.
I got the car back and it ran fine for a few weeks, then did it again, I took it in to get a reflash and have the eccentric shaft position sensor replaced......a few weeks later it came back and I took it in....they couldnt get it to do the problem and gave the car back, within a few mins of driving it the car did it again, I drove with another tech in the car and he saw the problem.
They replaced the fuel pump and its wiring harness.....the problem went away for a few months and recently came back. I took the car in again, this time because the rear bumper was melting around the exhaust pipes, and the muffler itself was BLUE from the heat.
They replaced the muffler and the rear bumper/trim and reflashed the car and said they couldnt get it to do the problem.
The problem is still there and I just experienced it the other day. According to the dealer my rebuilt engine still has compression "with in spec"
I dont want/need a new motor IMO....I need the real problem with the car fixed.....will this recall do that?
I am getting really tired of having a car that randomly shuts off, while im pulling out into traffic, getting on the highway, in the middle of my drive to work.
This car has gotten to the point that its cost me enough time/money/aggrivation.......if they can fix the problem then do it......if not, tell me so I can take action to get rid of the car.......
The car is 100% stock, and runs on 5w20 mineral oil (Castrol GTX, cause its all thats avalible around here).
i didnt see it inthe body of your post- did they replace your CAT?
In a previous post (in this thread) and post back to when the problem started I has explained what happens :
You go WOT and the rpms climb as the car accelerates (feels normal) but sometimes the car will just stop at _____ rpm (varys from 3k rpm to 8k rpm) the revs just sit there, as if it was the rev limiter. Other times the rpm will climb and it will hit _____rpm (again anywhere from 3k to 8k) and the motor just shuts off, you have your foot WOT and the rpms just fall (as if you let off and were coasting in gear).
Both motors have always had perfect compression (in spec and on the high side) and they have serviced :
Coil Packs, Throtle Bodie, TPS sensor, fuel pump, injectors, injector wiring harness, replaced the motor, o2 sensors, speed sensor, ecu, reflashes....ect....
basicaly all the parts of the car that control/monitor some function of the drive train.
To me the problem feels like fuel starvation....
At any rate, they check out the car top to bottom and eveyrthing they test is in spec and there are no problems they can find, but it still has the problem. When the problem first started I got a CEL for a misfire on rotor 2 a total of twice, but not everytime it does it, and recently it hasnt been giving me a CEL but still has the problem.
also, when the car isnt having this problem...it drives perfect. Has great power, good response, idles fine, gets 22mpg in the city and 25mpg on the highway, never overheats, starts up first crank everytime....
I had the power loss problem a few times when my car had been sitting for over a week. I turned off the car and it went away... but the underlying symptom was there.
The dealers up here (mine anyway) in Canada don't seem to be clued in to the issues that Rotary owners are experiencing and I have a good tech (#2 in Canada a few years ago).
I suppose they'll get the recall in due time, but I really wonder if they'll be able to diagnose accurately. After all, it only does the 'power loss' thing sporadically. A complete rundown of the various issues causing power loss needs to be addressed. I am trying to stay positive here... I HOPE the recall will address the fouled plugs, ruined coils, plugged cats, etc in their diagnosis of 'power'.
I truly don't want a new engine either... (especially since it isn't new)
kyliquid
there is a useable back seat to these cars.....
besides, more weight = more load = more stress for the car. So it might let some problems surface that wouldnt normaly come out with 1 tech in the car driving.
When my problem happens, 75% of the time it happens when I get on the throtle after 1hr of sitting in stop/go traffic (avg spd of 5mph) in near 100% weather with the A/C on. By this point the hood and fenders are so hot you cant touch them....most every system of the car is fully "heat soaked" and when I get on it, the problem happens, although it can also do it after a 1 hr drive on the freeway in 78* air doing 75mph in 6th gear, when most systems in the car are cool/warm to the touch.
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kyliquid
Originally Posted by rotarygod
KY: Here's a real stupid question. Have you ever had your fuel filter replaced?
Yeah, i didnt include everything that has been checked/serviced but its been quite a bit of stuff :
Fuel System : replaced fuel pump, replaced fuel filter, replaced fuel pump wiring harness, replaced fuel injector wiring harness, checked injectors, checked intake manifold/intake valves, checked throtle body, checked TPS, check the TPS under the trotle pedal, replaced coil packs, replaced spark plugs/wires, replace motor, checked o2 sensors, visual check of cat, replaced muffler (from the cat back) replaced bumper trim, checked transmission/differential, checked vacuum lines, checked the ECU, run various diagnostics on the different systems of the car, run compression checks, lots of "visual inpections".....ect.
That is what the dealer says they have done, some of it has been put on invoices, some of it is just what they say they did. I have seen some of the used parts from the car.
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kyliquid
Originally Posted by zoom44
dude ask dmp if a bad cat always causes a cel. it doesnt.
im not saying just throwing a CEL.
The car will drive fine for say 2 tanks of gas (just over 500 miles)....by "fine" i mean has good power/response, gets good miliage, will hit rev limiter on comand in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears, as well as neutral. no CELs, no problems what so ever.
I would think a failing or failed cat would produce some signifigant driving problems all or most of the time.
swoope - Aussie from different forum
I wouldn't assume this issue will affect us here.
The US cars have had local engine issues for quite a while now. You need to understand the differences between the US and Australian spec vehicles. They run 5w-20 oil. They have to, their EPA demands it. They demand it because a 5w-20 oil will cause less frictional loss. Less frictional loss means less fuel consumption. Less fuel consumption means cleaner air in Los Angeles....
They have different PCM flashes to us. Their cat converters must last for an incredible 100,000 miles (US EPA mandate....ADR 37-00 requires our cats to last half that [80,000 kms]). This means Mazda have to control the exhaust temperatures to save the cat from too high a temperature. The easiest way to do that is to pour more fuel into the engine. This results in (you guessed it) high emissions and poor economy. There is a very fine balancing act Mazda has to accomplish to satisfy the customer and the EPA.
Many of the problem engines have come from the hot dry states like Nevada. They see temperatures in summer of 40degC for weeks on end. We don't get that here.
We haven't seen engines failures of this type happen here. I don't think we'll get this recall, but it's a wait and see I suppose.
nubo
Originally Posted by RexApex
The problem is carbon build up right? How does adding more oil reduce carbon build up?
-R.
The seals are constantly scraping old oil (and carbon) off the side plates. Maybe at some point the ratio of liquid oil to (dry) carbon gets too low and the scraping action becomes ineffective. Sort of like rubbing or claying your car's finish -- if it gets too dry the solids cake up.
yan13b
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's my imput.
I was told was told by one of Mazda's tech line guys that the recall is driven by failure rates like the one I experianced.
Basically that at light throttle cruise the seals aren't getting proper lubrication.
The new flash cures that issue, but can't repair the damage done.
According to what he told me, a lot of these engines will still show good compression, but slightly weaker vacuum, which explains the new tools Mazda is sending out.
He also stated that lots of these engines look "pretty bad" inside, with chatter, but he said the seals are actually pretty tough.
ranger4277
I do mostly city driving with a 5/03 build date, very little cruise and I have the problem. And I run it to 9000 at least once every time I get in the car; I am a very sprited driver. My car only has about 23,000 miles on it and I only started experiencing the problem around 20,000. If you haven't started experiencing the problem you are probably ok as the new flash will prevent the low oil condition from causing damage in the first place. My engine will probably need replacing since it has been thrashing about with minimal seal lubrication for the past few months with no resolution from the dealer or Mazda until now. Car sounds like absolute crap once the vacuum starts to fail. Sounds more like a tractor from behind than a rotary.
I just don't feel comfortable with a remanufactured engine. Unless it comes with 247 HP..
ryan13b
Everybody mentions carbon build up and the importance of running the car hard.
I haven't heard of this being an issue, and I specifally asked Mazda's tech representative. He said it's not related AFAHK to this
bunnygirl
The impression I was getting (could be wrong) was too thin of oil recommended and some cars not putting out a sufficient amount needed with the thin oil.
Who knows. It does sound as if it is an oil shortage thing if the new flash is supposed to allow more oil in.
clavius
Well I just got back from my dealer and according to them um.. this thread is "A bunch of B.S." and I quote that mind you. I had to go in to schedule a apt to install a d.s. visor (which they called minutes before to say they had in.. I dont get it?! lol).. and made a off hand comment about all this.. "So you guys ready for that recall next week?". My service rep guy's face went into that classic "huh?" expression then asked "Um.. which one..." I told him about "Possible engine replacements" I stressed "Possible" to him mind you. He said that they havent heard of anything and that they usualy get a long heads up on any possible recalls. He pointed out how they had a year and a half heads up on a Miata PCM issue recall.
So I dunno yet.. he bashed the forum a lil bit saying "More than half the time those guys dont know what they are talking about." So yeah I was kinda annoyed as I left the dealer since I do trust you guys and have helped me out alot along with tons of others. I live in the New England area so could this possibly be a reason as to why he or as he put it "they" (as in the dealer) havent heard of this yet?
marshall
Ok, so I was going to post something about this a couple days ago, but then this surfaced, but I thought I'll ad my two cents anyways.
I took my car in the other day to have the coil pack replaced and got to talk to the head tech at length about some of the problems we're seeing. He told me that they have replaced 13 different motors in the past 4 months. That seem a bit high to anyone else? I think so. This is Atlanta area btw. I asked him why and he told me this. He said that after a while carbon will build up on the apex seals, and cause the engine to lose compression, normally evidenced by power loss and stalling. He basically said to bring the car in if I noticed either and they would probably have to replace the engine. He basically told me that it was just easier and cheaper for them to replace the whole engine than to replace the apex seals.
He also told me that the latest flash is designed to burn more oil to help prevent this problem. (btw, let's not turn this into a debate about synthetic oil again, just wanted to throw my two cents in there)
Btw, he seemed like a very knowledgeable mechanic, and never faltered on any of my questions, and although I know that doesn't prove anything, it helps a bit.
btw, sorry if this has already been discussed.
9291150
Originally Posted by zoom44
yes marshall that sounds all about correct. the gulf region has done like 200 engines this summer so far i think. i can believe a dozen or more were in hotlanta
200 just in that region? Wow. that alone is serious coin that Mazda is spending. .
Zoom, anything on affected serial numbers or regions or countries?
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mazdamaniac
OK. Just got off with a service rep here in the valley that I trust to some extent.
They had a meeting with the regional on Friday to prep them for the recall.
There are over 1000 motors in the pool that are available to send out to dealers that are performing the recall, which should mitigate some of the downtime for a replacement.
The motors are labled as re-mans, but Mazda put several hundred new motors in the channel to get the flow started on that program, so some people will end up with new motors, even though they will be labled as re-mans. The new motors are dressed, the re-mans are not, so if you are trying to identify yours, just look for coils and the intake manifold. Re-mans won't have those.
There is already a backlog in some places and no demand in others. For instance - there is a dealer in Tucson that already has 18 motors to swap that came in blown over the last few weeks. Yet, this dealer has none.
The recall will be, as was stated before, "white glove". However, what that means might be confused to some extent. He expalined it as the dealers will be giving owners practically carte blanche just to keep the good will high (yeah, good luck on that). If you don't pass the vacuum test, you get a new motor almost universally. You would have to really show some serious negligence (no service record, for instance) to not get the recall. Even if you are out of warrantee, they will probably give you deference.
Mazda has pretty well resigned themselves to a loss on this, though getting the motors back before they "blow" will save them a chunk of cash in the long run since they will re-build them and send them back out.
YMMV.
MONTEREY, Calif. -- After suffering a black eye from disclosing that it won't count RX-8 owners' opinions in its internal customer-satisfaction scores, Mazda says it may have to replace the engines in many of its flagship sports cars.
The voluntary recall of all 2004 and 2005 vehicles, and some 2006s, is expected to be announced this week or next. It involves damage to the catalyst resulting from oil leaks in the RX-8's rotary engine.
Any engine that does not pass a vacuum test must be replaced, said Robert Davis, head of product development and quality at Mazda North American Operations.
Engines prone to failing the test are mostly in hot climates and use synthetic oils.
Mazda also will check each RX-8's battery and starter, which tend to fail in cold climates.
"We're going to give these cars the white-glove treatment," Davis said. "We would rather replace the engine than have the dealer crack them open."
RotaryGod
Oil leaks? Issues with synthetics? I don't see how. It probably goes back to why Yamamoto-san told me that he doesn't like all synthetics, specifically Mobil 1 (the most widely used synthetic in the world), while some such as Royal Purple, Valvoline, and Idemitsu are fine. I personally see this as just an excuse to get around the issue at hand and will continue to use synthetics in my car. Remember I use them in a 13B which Mazda specifically says not to use synthetics in due to potential issues with rubber seals. After several years, I am prooud to say that on Royap Purple, I have had no issues.
I wonder what Mazda will think of next? Before anyone freaks out over yet more news from the company that changes their minds more than our politicians, if you are uncomfortable using synthetics, then don't. It's that simple. If you are worried about your engine, get it checked. You may get a new fresh one out of it for whatever reason! I wouldn't argue with that.
RotaryGod
Originally Posted by tiggerlee
Not trying to take this thread off topic but what's the 411 on the Mobil 1 RG? I just bought a GTO last week and GM suggests using Mobil 1 exclusively in it.
Should I go with RP or another brand instead?
He didn't get into specifics because he speaks very broken english. All I know is that he doesn't like it in rotaries.
j9fd3s
there is another reflash. this one opens the metering pump more
zoom44
You can see now why those TSBs have come out in Europe and Australia. There are certain types of Synthetics (sorry Fred its true) that they have seen contributing to the Issue with failing engines in the hotter areas (Vegas Lubbock Phoenix etc) and why i posted that bit the other day with Mazda having oil samples from each dealership. It is less costly for Mazda to say "no synthetics" than to pay for testing of all the various synthetics to say which ones are ok or not. Is Royal Purple ok? yeah no doubt as i know those guys have actually tested their oil in rotaries. Up to you to decide if you wish to risk your warranty.
...
Itd be nice if they could do the type of longevity and cooling improvement work i heard about this weekend which will be available from a certain well known rotary house in Georgia. I doubt the Delco people could tho.
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j9fd3s
its a regional problem, apparently high heat, low humidity areas are the problem. in the SF bay area, we havent seen any of the problems they are talking about
zoom44
actually sorry to impune Delco- its Delphi in North Carolina that is the entity who does the remans.
RotaryGod
I wish for once Mazda would jsut come out and say exactly what is wrong. They seem to answer questions by giving us more to ask. If there is a seal issue, I want them to say why. I don't want to hear it's because of synthetic oils. Which ones? I guarantee that I can find some conventionals that won't do an engine any good.
No matter what the issue is with Mazda, they always beat around the bush when it comes to answers. I for one would rather them come forward and say they screwed up at during engine building or there is a design flaw rather than new excuses, bulletins, and flashes that seem to fix nothing. We've heard it all before. An engine replacement is pretty serious stuff. If so many are having issues, you can't tell me it's because of what oils some people are using. This would have happened with the RX-7's too and it didn't. It's a manufacturing issue or an oil metering issue. That's all it can be that would warrant so many changes that don't do anything. This is their last resort that will hopefully solve the problem. I wonder what they'll do when it doesn't?
zoom44
fred- they havent done anything previously to address this issue. also they are not blaming a synthetic oil for this issue- the point is that some synthetic oils have been shown to be a contributing factor. they dont cause the problem but can exacerbate the situation. that pic in the european bulletin is from a US engine. they cant come out and say "dont use Brand X" because then they would get drawn in to a protracted legal battle with Brand X.
the remans are definetly a concern. because if its oil flow due to a casting issue then obviously that wont fix it.
zoom44
mx6 2 rx8:
no because the motors arent bad right off the lot. its a cumulative issue caused by traffic hot temps low humidity low rev driving and HOT OIL. cars on the lot havent face those issues yet
zoom44
what is a piston- slamming it wouldnt hurt the engine- you want anew engine? go sit in traffic with only one oil cooler for several hours every day for a week when the air temp is over 100 and the temp being read at the road surface is over 200.
rkostolni
I remember a post from Judge Ito some time ago regarding premature wear of the side seals resulting in a loss of compression. He claimed then that there was some type of engineering flaw in the engine. This is probably unrelated, but you never know.
RotaryGod
Mazda already knows of the potential for carbon buildup in this engine. The proof of that is in the shape of the closing edge of the exhaust ports and the wedge shape of the side seals. You know they did all of their testing on conventional "genuine Mazda oil" yet they still have carbon issues and have always had them. These problems are nothing new. It is just them coming around and finally admitting that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with. Back in the 70's, Mazda experimented with the side exhaust port but did not do it. Why? They had carbon issues that resulted in carbon collecting in the ports and breaking seals. You know they used conventional oils back then too as practically everyone did. The modern day solution to it was to use more accurate oil metering techniques than just dumping it down the carb like the old cars in the 70's, wedge shaped side seals to help remove any carbon buildup from sticking them in place, and the gradual closing edge shape on the exhaust ports to help scrape away any carbon. None of this is a new issue and none of it is a problem that didn't exist before synthetic oils. That is just their scapegoat for it.
Come on Mazda, just admit what the problem really is and make us all happy.
RotaryGod
Yamamoto-san specifically said last year at Sevenstock that RP was one of the good synthetics to use in the rotary. He did say not to use Mobil 1 but did not say why. I've used RP for years with no issues. So have many others and so has Racing Beat. Don't sweat it.
We need to ask ourselves something very important. If there are certain oil companies out there that make synthetics that we shouldn't be using due to carbon deposits, should you really feel any better by using that same brand's conventional oils??? That would scare me. It's not the base stock that makes and oil an oil. It's the additive package. It is many of these that are leaving the deposits. I'd be scared to use any oil from any certain company if one of them were found to cause problems.
As we all know, I have and always will endorse Royal Purple. My favorite conventional oil though is Havoline.
ibfubar2000
WOW 11 pages of speculation in 1 day. Its amazing what will happen on the web. When a lot of people start rumors. Let me clarify a few things. YES there is a new recall coming out. #4206F we do not have any paper info on it yet. YES there was a webinar (like a seminar but online) that every Mazda tech, service manager and service advisor was supposed to listen in on, it was an hour long webinar last Thursday/Friday. No not every car is going to get a new engine. mazda predicts less then 1% of vehicle will need a new engine. less then 5% will need a new catalytic converter but 100% will need a new flash, even if you had a flash 1-2 weeks ago, you will need another new flash. The test takes about on hour or so to do for each vehicle, expect your car to be down 2-3 hours though depending on how busy the dealer is that day. The cars are being tested for lack of power. the cars will be tested at high RPM to see if the RPMs drop rapidly, yes high RPM but they will be driven safely (lets not start speculating on the certified technicians damaging your engine because of high RPMs either)if the RPMs drops rapidly for no reason, ie your foot is still on the pedal, then you will get a new engine, if it does not drop you will not. If you have had experience in the past where your car has lost power then perhaps you are the 1% that will need an engine if you have never had a loss of power then you will just get a new flash. All Rx8 owners will get a letter in the mail next week (Aug 28th they get mailed to customers) DO NOT KAMIKAZE YOUR ENGINE!! DO NOT SABOTAGE YOUR ENGINE!! DO NOT PUT SYNTHITIC OIL IN YOUR ENGINE AND JUST EXPECT TO GET A NEW ONE BECUASE IF YOUR CAR DOES NOT HAVE ANY OF THE PROBLEMS MENTIONED ON THE RECALL YOU WILL NOT GET A NEW ENGINE AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR A NEW ONE YOURSELF.
Yes it is a recall and EVERY car will be covered under warranty FOR THE RECALL.
I would really like to just say relax right now and just wait until next week when the recall actually comes out and PLEASE PLEASE STOP SPECULATING AND/OR TELLING PEOPLE THAT EVERY ENGINE WILL BE REPLACED BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE CASE! Just relax and enjoy driving your RX8 like you always have.
Originally Posted by ibfubar2000
The cars are being tested for lack of power. the cars will be tested at high RPM to see if the RPMs drop rapidly...if the RPMs drops rapidly for no reason, ie your foot is still on the pedal, then you will get a new engine, if it does not drop you will not. If you have had experience in the past where your car has lost power then perhaps you are the 1% that will need an engine...
this has been the on going problem I have had with the car for the last 1 year/12000 miles.....the cars rpm drop and power cuts out.....but it doesnt do it all the time, only after sitting in traffic/getting hot from driving at low speed in hot weather (Orlando, FL). Even then it only does it SOME times.......
because it only happens some times, the dealer can never find it....they experienced it 1 time and replaced the engine (the engine checked out prior to replacement with PERFECT crompression according to the tech...but they still felt the need to replace it. After replacement the car still did the same thing so they replaced the fuel injector wiring harness cause the current one had a short in it.
I got the car back and it ran fine for a few weeks, then did it again, I took it in to get a reflash and have the eccentric shaft position sensor replaced......a few weeks later it came back and I took it in....they couldnt get it to do the problem and gave the car back, within a few mins of driving it the car did it again, I drove with another tech in the car and he saw the problem.
They replaced the fuel pump and its wiring harness.....the problem went away for a few months and recently came back. I took the car in again, this time because the rear bumper was melting around the exhaust pipes, and the muffler itself was BLUE from the heat.
They replaced the muffler and the rear bumper/trim and reflashed the car and said they couldnt get it to do the problem.
The problem is still there and I just experienced it the other day. According to the dealer my rebuilt engine still has compression "with in spec"
I dont want/need a new motor IMO....I need the real problem with the car fixed.....will this recall do that?
I am getting really tired of having a car that randomly shuts off, while im pulling out into traffic, getting on the highway, in the middle of my drive to work.
This car has gotten to the point that its cost me enough time/money/aggrivation.......if they can fix the problem then do it......if not, tell me so I can take action to get rid of the car.......
The car is 100% stock, and runs on 5w20 mineral oil (Castrol GTX, cause its all thats avalible around here).
i didnt see it inthe body of your post- did they replace your CAT?
In a previous post (in this thread) and post back to when the problem started I has explained what happens :
You go WOT and the rpms climb as the car accelerates (feels normal) but sometimes the car will just stop at _____ rpm (varys from 3k rpm to 8k rpm) the revs just sit there, as if it was the rev limiter. Other times the rpm will climb and it will hit _____rpm (again anywhere from 3k to 8k) and the motor just shuts off, you have your foot WOT and the rpms just fall (as if you let off and were coasting in gear).
Both motors have always had perfect compression (in spec and on the high side) and they have serviced :
Coil Packs, Throtle Bodie, TPS sensor, fuel pump, injectors, injector wiring harness, replaced the motor, o2 sensors, speed sensor, ecu, reflashes....ect....
basicaly all the parts of the car that control/monitor some function of the drive train.
To me the problem feels like fuel starvation....
At any rate, they check out the car top to bottom and eveyrthing they test is in spec and there are no problems they can find, but it still has the problem. When the problem first started I got a CEL for a misfire on rotor 2 a total of twice, but not everytime it does it, and recently it hasnt been giving me a CEL but still has the problem.
also, when the car isnt having this problem...it drives perfect. Has great power, good response, idles fine, gets 22mpg in the city and 25mpg on the highway, never overheats, starts up first crank everytime....
I had the power loss problem a few times when my car had been sitting for over a week. I turned off the car and it went away... but the underlying symptom was there.
The dealers up here (mine anyway) in Canada don't seem to be clued in to the issues that Rotary owners are experiencing and I have a good tech (#2 in Canada a few years ago).
I suppose they'll get the recall in due time, but I really wonder if they'll be able to diagnose accurately. After all, it only does the 'power loss' thing sporadically. A complete rundown of the various issues causing power loss needs to be addressed. I am trying to stay positive here... I HOPE the recall will address the fouled plugs, ruined coils, plugged cats, etc in their diagnosis of 'power'.
I truly don't want a new engine either... (especially since it isn't new)
kyliquid
there is a useable back seat to these cars.....
besides, more weight = more load = more stress for the car. So it might let some problems surface that wouldnt normaly come out with 1 tech in the car driving.
When my problem happens, 75% of the time it happens when I get on the throtle after 1hr of sitting in stop/go traffic (avg spd of 5mph) in near 100% weather with the A/C on. By this point the hood and fenders are so hot you cant touch them....most every system of the car is fully "heat soaked" and when I get on it, the problem happens, although it can also do it after a 1 hr drive on the freeway in 78* air doing 75mph in 6th gear, when most systems in the car are cool/warm to the touch.
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kyliquid
Originally Posted by rotarygod
KY: Here's a real stupid question. Have you ever had your fuel filter replaced?
Yeah, i didnt include everything that has been checked/serviced but its been quite a bit of stuff :
Fuel System : replaced fuel pump, replaced fuel filter, replaced fuel pump wiring harness, replaced fuel injector wiring harness, checked injectors, checked intake manifold/intake valves, checked throtle body, checked TPS, check the TPS under the trotle pedal, replaced coil packs, replaced spark plugs/wires, replace motor, checked o2 sensors, visual check of cat, replaced muffler (from the cat back) replaced bumper trim, checked transmission/differential, checked vacuum lines, checked the ECU, run various diagnostics on the different systems of the car, run compression checks, lots of "visual inpections".....ect.
That is what the dealer says they have done, some of it has been put on invoices, some of it is just what they say they did. I have seen some of the used parts from the car.
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kyliquid
Originally Posted by zoom44
dude ask dmp if a bad cat always causes a cel. it doesnt.
im not saying just throwing a CEL.
The car will drive fine for say 2 tanks of gas (just over 500 miles)....by "fine" i mean has good power/response, gets good miliage, will hit rev limiter on comand in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears, as well as neutral. no CELs, no problems what so ever.
I would think a failing or failed cat would produce some signifigant driving problems all or most of the time.
swoope - Aussie from different forum
I wouldn't assume this issue will affect us here.
The US cars have had local engine issues for quite a while now. You need to understand the differences between the US and Australian spec vehicles. They run 5w-20 oil. They have to, their EPA demands it. They demand it because a 5w-20 oil will cause less frictional loss. Less frictional loss means less fuel consumption. Less fuel consumption means cleaner air in Los Angeles....
They have different PCM flashes to us. Their cat converters must last for an incredible 100,000 miles (US EPA mandate....ADR 37-00 requires our cats to last half that [80,000 kms]). This means Mazda have to control the exhaust temperatures to save the cat from too high a temperature. The easiest way to do that is to pour more fuel into the engine. This results in (you guessed it) high emissions and poor economy. There is a very fine balancing act Mazda has to accomplish to satisfy the customer and the EPA.
Many of the problem engines have come from the hot dry states like Nevada. They see temperatures in summer of 40degC for weeks on end. We don't get that here.
We haven't seen engines failures of this type happen here. I don't think we'll get this recall, but it's a wait and see I suppose.
nubo
Originally Posted by RexApex
The problem is carbon build up right? How does adding more oil reduce carbon build up?
-R.
The seals are constantly scraping old oil (and carbon) off the side plates. Maybe at some point the ratio of liquid oil to (dry) carbon gets too low and the scraping action becomes ineffective. Sort of like rubbing or claying your car's finish -- if it gets too dry the solids cake up.
yan13b
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's my imput.
I was told was told by one of Mazda's tech line guys that the recall is driven by failure rates like the one I experianced.
Basically that at light throttle cruise the seals aren't getting proper lubrication.
The new flash cures that issue, but can't repair the damage done.
According to what he told me, a lot of these engines will still show good compression, but slightly weaker vacuum, which explains the new tools Mazda is sending out.
He also stated that lots of these engines look "pretty bad" inside, with chatter, but he said the seals are actually pretty tough.
ranger4277
I do mostly city driving with a 5/03 build date, very little cruise and I have the problem. And I run it to 9000 at least once every time I get in the car; I am a very sprited driver. My car only has about 23,000 miles on it and I only started experiencing the problem around 20,000. If you haven't started experiencing the problem you are probably ok as the new flash will prevent the low oil condition from causing damage in the first place. My engine will probably need replacing since it has been thrashing about with minimal seal lubrication for the past few months with no resolution from the dealer or Mazda until now. Car sounds like absolute crap once the vacuum starts to fail. Sounds more like a tractor from behind than a rotary.
I just don't feel comfortable with a remanufactured engine. Unless it comes with 247 HP..
ryan13b
Everybody mentions carbon build up and the importance of running the car hard.
I haven't heard of this being an issue, and I specifally asked Mazda's tech representative. He said it's not related AFAHK to this
bunnygirl
The impression I was getting (could be wrong) was too thin of oil recommended and some cars not putting out a sufficient amount needed with the thin oil.
Who knows. It does sound as if it is an oil shortage thing if the new flash is supposed to allow more oil in.
clavius
Well I just got back from my dealer and according to them um.. this thread is "A bunch of B.S." and I quote that mind you. I had to go in to schedule a apt to install a d.s. visor (which they called minutes before to say they had in.. I dont get it?! lol).. and made a off hand comment about all this.. "So you guys ready for that recall next week?". My service rep guy's face went into that classic "huh?" expression then asked "Um.. which one..." I told him about "Possible engine replacements" I stressed "Possible" to him mind you. He said that they havent heard of anything and that they usualy get a long heads up on any possible recalls. He pointed out how they had a year and a half heads up on a Miata PCM issue recall.
So I dunno yet.. he bashed the forum a lil bit saying "More than half the time those guys dont know what they are talking about." So yeah I was kinda annoyed as I left the dealer since I do trust you guys and have helped me out alot along with tons of others. I live in the New England area so could this possibly be a reason as to why he or as he put it "they" (as in the dealer) havent heard of this yet?
marshall
Ok, so I was going to post something about this a couple days ago, but then this surfaced, but I thought I'll ad my two cents anyways.
I took my car in the other day to have the coil pack replaced and got to talk to the head tech at length about some of the problems we're seeing. He told me that they have replaced 13 different motors in the past 4 months. That seem a bit high to anyone else? I think so. This is Atlanta area btw. I asked him why and he told me this. He said that after a while carbon will build up on the apex seals, and cause the engine to lose compression, normally evidenced by power loss and stalling. He basically said to bring the car in if I noticed either and they would probably have to replace the engine. He basically told me that it was just easier and cheaper for them to replace the whole engine than to replace the apex seals.
He also told me that the latest flash is designed to burn more oil to help prevent this problem. (btw, let's not turn this into a debate about synthetic oil again, just wanted to throw my two cents in there)
Btw, he seemed like a very knowledgeable mechanic, and never faltered on any of my questions, and although I know that doesn't prove anything, it helps a bit.
btw, sorry if this has already been discussed.
9291150
Originally Posted by zoom44
yes marshall that sounds all about correct. the gulf region has done like 200 engines this summer so far i think. i can believe a dozen or more were in hotlanta
200 just in that region? Wow. that alone is serious coin that Mazda is spending. .
Zoom, anything on affected serial numbers or regions or countries?
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mazdamaniac
OK. Just got off with a service rep here in the valley that I trust to some extent.
They had a meeting with the regional on Friday to prep them for the recall.
There are over 1000 motors in the pool that are available to send out to dealers that are performing the recall, which should mitigate some of the downtime for a replacement.
The motors are labled as re-mans, but Mazda put several hundred new motors in the channel to get the flow started on that program, so some people will end up with new motors, even though they will be labled as re-mans. The new motors are dressed, the re-mans are not, so if you are trying to identify yours, just look for coils and the intake manifold. Re-mans won't have those.
There is already a backlog in some places and no demand in others. For instance - there is a dealer in Tucson that already has 18 motors to swap that came in blown over the last few weeks. Yet, this dealer has none.
The recall will be, as was stated before, "white glove". However, what that means might be confused to some extent. He expalined it as the dealers will be giving owners practically carte blanche just to keep the good will high (yeah, good luck on that). If you don't pass the vacuum test, you get a new motor almost universally. You would have to really show some serious negligence (no service record, for instance) to not get the recall. Even if you are out of warrantee, they will probably give you deference.
Mazda has pretty well resigned themselves to a loss on this, though getting the motors back before they "blow" will save them a chunk of cash in the long run since they will re-build them and send them back out.
YMMV.
08-23-06, 12:20 AM
#13
Wishin I Still Had The FD
"The recall will be released soon, and is targetted mainly toward automatic 4-port cars in hotter climates (nameingly: Las Vegas, where a VAST majority of automatic RX8's are failing...daily)."
telling you, the Vegas heat is killer on rotaries. My friend Mike (xblazinlv) and I joke that when you guys are putting your cars away for the winter, that's when our cars come out to shine. We have to put ours away in the summer time!
telling you, the Vegas heat is killer on rotaries. My friend Mike (xblazinlv) and I joke that when you guys are putting your cars away for the winter, that's when our cars come out to shine. We have to put ours away in the summer time!
08-23-06, 05:59 PM
#15
Speed Mach Go Go Go
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That attached service bulletin above says for "eropean market" and not USDM?
LOL, that has allways been their problem and allways will be. What happens when it's out of warranty? ...they will still just replace instead of diagnose and fix.
He basically told me that it was just easier and cheaper for them to replace the whole engine than to replace the apex seals.
08-23-06, 06:18 PM
#16
Constant threat
A friend of mine just had to have her daughter's RX-8 engine replaced by the dealer. And it is an automatic car. Interesting. The engines in the automatics have less horsepower but more torque than the 6-speed. Wonder if it has anything to do with how the ECU is set?
My friend is ecstatic though, she is getting a new engine with a full warranty.
Free.
Can't beat that.
My friend is ecstatic though, she is getting a new engine with a full warranty.
Free.
Can't beat that.
08-23-06, 08:13 PM
#18
Constant threat
^ was there really any hope? Especially with fuel costs spiraling ever upward? And the fact that a 400+ hp Corvette can get 28 mpg? Along with a host of other engines of high output (over 300 hp) that get well over 20 mpg from manufacturers like Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc.?
The Renesis was a step in the right direction but too little, too late. People would have accepted its shortcomings if it had something really impressive to show, like say 400 hp or 400 ft./lbs torque, or a 12,000 rpm redline, or if it had good performance and got 35 mpg or was able to run 500,000 miles without a service...anything POSITIVE to set it apart. But instead it came into the world under a black cloud of suspicion, had fairly pathetic output compared to the competition, and lo and behold....it is a reliability disaster.
Yeah, the rotary is as dead as Johnny Cochran. I predict Mazda will cease production on the RX-8 within 2 years.
The Renesis was a step in the right direction but too little, too late. People would have accepted its shortcomings if it had something really impressive to show, like say 400 hp or 400 ft./lbs torque, or a 12,000 rpm redline, or if it had good performance and got 35 mpg or was able to run 500,000 miles without a service...anything POSITIVE to set it apart. But instead it came into the world under a black cloud of suspicion, had fairly pathetic output compared to the competition, and lo and behold....it is a reliability disaster.
Yeah, the rotary is as dead as Johnny Cochran. I predict Mazda will cease production on the RX-8 within 2 years.
08-23-06, 08:39 PM
#19
Originally Posted by bajaman
^ was there really any hope? Especially with fuel costs spiraling ever upward? And the fact that a 400+ hp Corvette can get 28 mpg? Along with a host of other engines of high output (over 300 hp) that get well over 20 mpg from manufacturers like Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc.?
The Renesis was a step in the right direction but too little, too late. People would have accepted its shortcomings if it had something really impressive to show, like say 400 hp or 400 ft./lbs torque, or a 12,000 rpm redline, or if it had good performance and got 35 mpg or was able to run 500,000 miles without a service...anything POSITIVE to set it apart. But instead it came into the world under a black cloud of suspicion, had fairly pathetic output compared to the competition, and lo and behold....it is a reliability disaster.
Yeah, the rotary is as dead as Johnny Cochran. I predict Mazda will cease production on the RX-8 within 2 years.
The Renesis was a step in the right direction but too little, too late. People would have accepted its shortcomings if it had something really impressive to show, like say 400 hp or 400 ft./lbs torque, or a 12,000 rpm redline, or if it had good performance and got 35 mpg or was able to run 500,000 miles without a service...anything POSITIVE to set it apart. But instead it came into the world under a black cloud of suspicion, had fairly pathetic output compared to the competition, and lo and behold....it is a reliability disaster.
Yeah, the rotary is as dead as Johnny Cochran. I predict Mazda will cease production on the RX-8 within 2 years.
mazda has stated that they will have at least one rotary powered car in their lineup for the foreseeable future... i like to think the same for myself
08-23-06, 08:57 PM
#20
Originally Posted by bajaman
^ was there really any hope? Especially with fuel costs spiraling ever upward? And the fact that a 400+ hp Corvette can get 28 mpg? Along with a host of other engines of high output (over 300 hp) that get well over 20 mpg from manufacturers like Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc.?
The Renesis was a step in the right direction but too little, too late. People would have accepted its shortcomings if it had something really impressive to show, like say 400 hp or 400 ft./lbs torque, or a 12,000 rpm redline, or if it had good performance and got 35 mpg or was able to run 500,000 miles without a service...anything POSITIVE to set it apart. But instead it came into the world under a black cloud of suspicion, had fairly pathetic output compared to the competition, and lo and behold....it is a reliability disaster.
Yeah, the rotary is as dead as Johnny Cochran. I predict Mazda will cease production on the RX-8 within 2 years.
The Renesis was a step in the right direction but too little, too late. People would have accepted its shortcomings if it had something really impressive to show, like say 400 hp or 400 ft./lbs torque, or a 12,000 rpm redline, or if it had good performance and got 35 mpg or was able to run 500,000 miles without a service...anything POSITIVE to set it apart. But instead it came into the world under a black cloud of suspicion, had fairly pathetic output compared to the competition, and lo and behold....it is a reliability disaster.
Yeah, the rotary is as dead as Johnny Cochran. I predict Mazda will cease production on the RX-8 within 2 years.
Not to mention the Vettes increased cost over an RX-8 would make up the difference many times over for the minor increased gas comsumption. People are still driving Hummers after all so for most folks that isn't that big of deal.
I think the RX-8 is a pretty kick *** car and I'm sorry you think it's so flawed. I would rather see any kind of Rotary Powered vehicle be it N/A whatever than none what so ever.
However the engine is already looked at with much skepticism and this certainly will not help matters.
08-23-06, 09:17 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Nat6c
think a big problem is the dealers.. (i work at one) unfortunately the dealers dont' wanna get dino oil just for rx8's. i bet the main problem is the fact that so many ppl wanan throw synth or synth blend oils in there and are ******* the engines up. even at my dealer i've requested to order a few cases of dino oil... and they say "use the store oil, it's cheaper (no name brand crap oil) and less headache. " and he was a mnao regional rep.... so i can imagine what the other dealers use or say. it sucks. but as always american mazda dealers ******* suck. **** i'm the only tech willing to actually work and fix rx8 problems instead of throwing parts at em... sad really. but i did notice they use alot less oil then the rew engine... all the msp13b's that i've seen with consisten oil changes are about a quart low after 3-4k miles when it's time for the next oil change..... always thought that was strange... but if i remember correctly mazda just put out a new PCM (ecu) Internal Bulletin to reprogram all rx8's with the new maps wich include increase in OMP Injection... i say they put a 1-2 qrt. canister you drop 2 stroke in and **** it. would solve soo.... many problems... ha. i'll keep an eye out about it.
Later...
Los
Later...
Los
08-23-06, 10:43 PM
#25
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Originally Posted by the_glass_man
I get over 500 miles to a tank on the FD.
--Vincent