clayne

Car feels much more what I like now.

0-5 mph steering effort is definitely increased, but unless you're totally weak it's not that big a deal.

The advantage is increased communication of car balance while cornering. One is able to feel the effects of throttle-steer more accurately as it almost always affects the loading of the front-tires and turn-in. With power-steering you are able to force through this feedback and that's not right.

Honestly I could go for an even lower steering ratio, but we'll see if the Mazdaspeed steering wheel helps.

Now I just have to pull the pump and all other associated crap with it.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Do you do any AutoX or road racing with the car? I'd be interested to hear about someone removing the PS who does these sort of events (without replacing the rack that is).

So far, I've only seen people who street drive their FD remove the PS in which case I don't think is a bad idea.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

I've done full removal and auto-x with 235/45 17's on front. I don't have much of a problem. It does take quicker response and you will build some good arm strength. It's a big difference between just pulling the belt off and removing the pump. I will be switching to a manual rack soon, and will update and give my opinions.

FormerPorscheGuy

When we did your clutch I had mine out, did you ride in it then?

Removing the belt is ok for around town and I would imagine that it could help with auto-x events, but its a pain to park the car with it out.

rfreeman27

iTrader: (5)

With the entire pump out, it is much easier, and feels better.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Nope. Remember, we were trying not to get blown away by the tornado!

I just don't really understand people removing it honestly. The PS is there to assist in turning the car. It would be one thing if removing it offerred some sort of "handling enhancement" but really all it does is make it harder to turn the wheel. You aren't going to turn any better without it.

Now, adding the manual rack with the removal is something else.

clayne

Mahjik,

Yes it does offer a handling improvement with even just the belt removed.

Almost anything the translates into increased force through feedback offers better feel to the way we respond to the car. It's the same principle behind oversized master cylinders. Better feel through resistance rather than displacement.

Now regardless of all that, one is able to more accurately feel how the car's overall balance is while cornering due to the power steering's overall LINEAR response curve. Remove it and you'll see how the force required is now more exponential.

My car is road-raced.

To the person who complained about parking, it's really not that hard at all. Can't have everything however.

RF, yep I'm yanking out the pump as well, and plan to do the equalizing pipes. I don't want to go to a manual rack because they are higher ratio - unless you know of one I'm not aware of.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Technically, that's not "handling" that's "feeling".

I think that's a matter of opinion as most real racers don't seem to have a problem "feeling" the road or the car with PS installed and running:

Some quotes from FIA GT racing:

Lilian Bryner - number 21 Care Racing Ferrari 550 Maranello:

''The car was going very well until half tank, and then the misfires started. It was a very hard race, very hot in the race, and it was hard to do the stint without power steering.''

Florian Hebel - team manager, Wieth Racing:

''We had quite a good weekend until the race, when there was a 0.5 mm hole in a hose leading to the power steering pump. We were losing oil, and thought it was the pump. But the car is undriveable without power steering. We'd had no problems all weekend. I would love to have a good result for our drivers Wolfgang Kaufmann and Vittorio Zoboli, who help us so much and are so patient.''

Granted, they are referring to full spec racing machines where you are at it for quite a long time. However, there still is a difference between "feel" and "better response". IMO, it's a mind game. People see PS as being "wimpy" so they remove it. They attribute "feeling" to "better handling" when in most cases not having the fight the wheel offers better and longer lasting performance.

clayne

Yep, feeling is more accurate.

But feeling is extremely important and of course it becomes harder to drive - but it's a tradeoff. More feel for more effort.

It's not a mind game. I prefer the increased steering effort with MORE feedback. In addition I also prefer to remove the pump and associated piping to increase space in the engine bay.

I don't understand how the assertion of "not having to fight the wheel offers better and longer lasting performance." is any less of a mindgame than "having to fight the wheel offers better feeling to what is really going on at the expense of requiring significantly more driver effort."

The quotes you provided are in reference to an F550 not an FD3S.

There are no negatives to removing your P/S except for increased effort. However the only positive to keeping it is less effort. The positives to removing it have already been stated, oh and also better air flow in the engine bay, reduced weight, and reduction in reciprocating mass and power-using devices on the main pulley.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

lol, the technology is the same whether it's an F1 race car or a Lexus sedan. Power steering is power steering. I've driven many cars (not an FD) without power steering the extra "sense of the road" you speak of didn't offer me anything but just extra effort using the wheel. The only difference I've ever noticed was the lack of what people refer to "mush" on the PS equipped cars at lower speeds. At higher speeds it all felt the same.

If you are only doing 10-20 minute sessions on a road course, sure removing the PS won't be a huge deal. However, if you ever do longer sessions it does take a toll as MANY race drivers have attested to.

lol, ok, I'm sure that extra device on the main pulley freed up a ton of HP. Those might be positives, but they are fairly insignifigant in the big picture of "reducing weight and better cooling" for the car.

It's a preference thing. There really is nothing to be gain by removing it. If you noted "Hey, I removed the PS and my coolant temps when down by 10 degrees, my dyno jumped up 15rwhp and I can now do a u-turn on a one lane road without powersliding or going off the road", that would be something.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

BTW, another thread on the subject:

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=231018

Kento

...and there you have it. IMHO, anyway...

clayne

Of course there is not a significant increase in cooling or rwhp, but I'm not going to agree it's just a simple "preference" thing. It isn't the same at high speeds either.

"lol, the technology is the same whether it's an F1 race car or a Lexus sedan."

Over-simplification. Yes, the effects tend to be the same, but I suggest you check out some of the more modern electric-based power steering systems like in the S2K for an example of a different style. In addition the power steering utilized on a high-end race car is NOT the same as a standard road-car. They offer adjustable left to right bias control and overall boost control.

That being said, an S2K nor an F550 is the same chassis of an FD3S. By your logic I should be throwing the P/S onto every car I buy, RX-2, AE86, and 510s included.

You could pull the belt in your FD for a month and then we can compare results too. However these results will still be sort of bogus anyways as one needs to also remove the pump to have it be proper. The hydraulic layout and fluid in the rack is increasing the effort with the pump being inactive.

PS w/ no belt is definitely not the same as PS rack w/ fluid bypass and no lines or pump.

From a body-mecahnics point of view the human body responds with less processing to resistance than it does to displacement. It has to do with the way our muscles deal with a force against that requires more muscle input vs a more linear-based displacement feeling - which requires the brain to "remember" previously used efforts through said displacement. A quick analogy would be imagining your clutch pedal having a pedal force like your throttle pedal.

There's always a dividing line on this issue. But almost every time it's the people who want less crap and a more raw feeling vs the people who are developing rationalizations to keep their power-steering in the car.

For slow-speed auto-x, I can see a need.

clayne

"Some must have the car yelling at them and some only need it to whisper."

That logic is entirely based off of predictive-input.
Waiting for the car to initiate some small form of output which one remembers to "most likely be this" and then reacting to it.

I guess one should just remove all of the gauges from their car and install binary warning-lamps while they're at it, right?

My version:

Some prefer to have the car yelling at them so they can choose what they want to hear while some prefer the car to tell them less so they can make a good guess.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Of course that was an over simplification Captain Obvious. However the mechanics, the end result is the same (steering assistance). Very much like traction control. Sure you can remove/disable them on cars (like F1 race cars) to give you a better feel, but does that make you a better driver or have better lap times? Not necessarily.

That's like saying you need a loud exhaust to hear when you need to shift. Therefore, since you can hear when to shift better, you are automatically a better driver.

If you say "I like the feeling of the car better without PS", that's one thing. But to say if gives better handing isn't true in the sense of the words. It may allow you to handle your car better but that doesn't mean "it gives better handling". Suspension mods do that.

And saying it provides better cooling and reduction in the main pulley (even though we all know that it's diminutive) isn't "developing rationalizations? ROTL.. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...

Kento

Uhh..."logic based off of predictive-input"?? "Binary warning-lamps"?? Crikey...all this mental masturbation......"If ya can't trick them out of the truth, then ya baffle'em with bullshit..."

No need to overcomplicate things. What makes you think having the car "tell them less" will require those drivers to "guess"? It's called having a feel for the car that doesn't require a death grip on the steering wheel...

But, as I said, that's just my preference. For those that prefer to run without PS, that's fine.

Jason93RX7R1

Install a manual rack. You are still pushing fluid around when you just 'pull the pump' It is *vastly* easier with a manual rack installed then converted power steering. The feeling through the bends is *wonderful*; high speed on the highway is even better; and I can still park parallel park my car with relative ease.

Do it right. Autocross is one thing, road racing is another; I really think most of the road racers would greatly favor the feel and control of the manual rack over the power steering in our cars.

Jason

Jason93RX7R1

How to of the manual rack:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ht=manual+rack

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Say what ever you want, unless you drive your car that way it's all hearsay. I will be switching to a manual rack to free up more space and drop more weight, but I don't have any problem driving, racing, or parking the car the way it is.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

my 2y. i pulled the belt off of mine and the feeback is nicer than the ps i felt with the ps i was faster because i could concentrate on the line i was gonna take rather than getting the wheel muscled over in time. what i would ideally want is a less boosted ps

mike

Kento

In that respect, I will concede that I have not track-driven an FD with the PS removed/manual rack installed. Perhaps I will find someone at a track event someday who will let me try their so-equipped FD to find out for myself.

However, if you feel happy with the steering response and overall feel of the car with the stock PS, there's no reason to imply that others are inferior drivers if they don't dump the PS.

Incidentally, I run 235/45-17s in front also (Toyo RA-1s at the moment), and both the feel and response changed with the switch from stock size tires. But since you have the same size and don't have any problems, perhaps it might be worth checking out, as long as I can find someone with the same combination with a manual rack installed.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I agree with the full conversion (which is why I said in my original message "without replacing the rack". IMO, if you are going to do it, do it right not half-*ssed.

clayne

You stated:

"I just don't really understand people removing it honestly. The PS is there to assist in turning the car. It would be one thing if removing it offerred some sort of "handling enhancement" but really all it does is make it harder to turn the wheel. You aren't going to turn any better without it.

Now, adding the manual rack with the removal is something else."


Yep, it is. Removing the belt is only half the way there. However power-steering rack converted to bypassed rack is not bad at all.

Next time you're road-racing, try pulling the belt just to see how that feels, then report back to us what you think after having tried it.

lleone

"The quotes you provided are in reference to an F550 not an FD3S."

And let's not forget the 1200 pound difference between the Ferrari and the Mazda.

Interesting thread by the way...

Lou

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

If you want to get that specific about it, the quote was actually referring to the FIA GT Ferrari which is:

1100 kilogram = 2,425 lbs

All panels on the Ferrari 550 GTS Maranello are made from carbon-fibre composite. Only the roof and some of the rear quarters are retained from the original road car.
Length: 4610 mm
Width: 1995 mm
Wheel base: 2500mm
Weight: 1100kg

However, as stated, the function of the power steering is still the same. If you don't have a manual rack, losing the PS isn't necessarily a good thing.