MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

I would like to get everyone's thoughts on a rebuild I'm currently working on. I'm looking for a reliable stock setup that starts with the following:


Engine: rebuild with 2 or 3 mm apeax seals, not sure yet. HD water seals, no street port.

Turbos: BNR stage 3's, non-seq, ported wastegate, 10 psi boost, ceramic coated turbo and exhaust manifolds.

Exhaust: ceramic coated downpipe, new Bonez high flow cat (need to pass emissions so keep air pump too), RB dual catback.

Fuel: 550/1300 injectors, clean and flow tested, supra tt fuel pump, new fpd & fuel filter.

Cooling: new Koyo N flow, alum ast, samco hose kit, all new coolant hoses for turbos and tb.

Intake: all stock, including airbox & intercooler. Maybe greddy intake elbow. K&N filter element for stock airbox.

Gauges: boost, water temp, maybe oil temp.

Items removed: AWS, double throttle control, hoses and items related to going non-sequential, no A/C system or components.

Other: stock ecu, ceramic coatings for UIM, LIM, water pump & T-stat housing. Lots of new misc stuff like sensors, omp pump, oil pan brace, new engine mounts, all new SS lines for brakes, clutch and oil pump.

So, my goal is to have a reliable (as much as possible), conservative, stock but mildly modded FD.

My main #1 concern is how the stock ecu will be able to handle the injectors and BNR turbos and just the overall setup of this rebuild. Should I expect problems anywhere besides a few ecu error codes that would otherwise be ignored?

Lastly, in dealing with ecu error codes that do come up, what's the best way to deal with them? Are the fixes specific per error code or can 1 general fix apply to all for this setup?

Thanks

Rx72Heaven

iTrader: (2)

Looks good, but why not a streetport? It gives you a huge power increase without compromising anything.

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

limited on $$$

So also why I may not go with 3mm seals. And.. with a street port and 3mm seals, it will be very, VERY tempting to turn up the boost, which means I need to spend more $$$ for a PFC, better intercooler setup and at least the cheap bastard mod for the stock airbox to open up some airflow a bit and a better boost controller.

By forcing myself to stay stock, it stays reliable and keeps my bank account from dropping to 0!

Other than that, yah, a street port would make sense. Oh yah, and I would want to ceramic coat the rotors and other internal engine parts, $500 from: rrotorsportsracing.com/performancetuning/engine_parts.htm

the-k-man

Will the stock ECU work with 1300cc secondaries?

Rx72Heaven

iTrader: (2)

Ah ic, well id deff get a PFC with those mods, or you'll be back to sq one again with a engine rebuild in no time., and save on the ceramic rotors, and get a street port.

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

Is the stock ecu not capable of controlling the 1300 secondaries properly? Is that why you recommend the PFC? Otherwise, I'm figuring the stock intake and ported wastegate would be enough to curb boost creep/spikes. As for running a lean fuel mixture, thats why I'm stay at 10 lbs of boost, unless the stock ecu can't control the 1300's ... I can't think of what other reasons there are.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Nope.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

The ECU controls the injectors based on duty cycles. So if the stock ECU thinks it's opening up 850cc at 50%, if it's opening up 1300cc at 50% that's going to be a heck of a lot more fuel.

You need a programmable ECU for larger injectors, or a reprogrammed stock ECU which has been programmed for larger injectors. To my knowledge, there is no one here in the USA who offers a rechipped stock ECU for larger injectors. I know Pettit Racing looked at selling one, but they decided not to.

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

The BNRs also flow significantly more than stock at 10psi so a PFC would be necessary here too for safety. I suppose keeping the stock intercooler may restrict flow enough so that it may be ok but that would be a retrograde solution.

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

why go with 3mm seals? Especially for a pretty much stock project there is no real reason unless your rotors are damaged.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Your chart of mods is all over the place. You're trying to stay stock in some places (ECU, airbox) and going wild on mods in other places, like the turbos.

What are your goals with the car? If you just want to be stock plus a little extra, you're going a weird direction.

My recommendations for you -

Motor: Rebuild with stock Mazda 2mm apex seals and stock Mazda water seals.

Turbos: Stock turbos, if yours are bad find a good set used for cheap ($150-300). With the other mods or lack therof the BNR's would be a waste of money. Personally, I'd stay sequential - you REALLY need the car opened up to take advantage of non-sequential. The sequential system really isn't that big of a deal to keep running right, and your car will be MUCH faster and fun to drive in day-to-day use.

Fuel: stock injectors, cleaned, and rewire the fuel pump for a little extra headroom. New fuel filter. Might want to pop in a new pulsation dampener. You don't need to upgrade the fuel pump at this point.

Cooling - new radiator is good, as is new Mazda coolant hoses. Save your money on the Samco hoses - get stock Mazda ones. They're tested, I've YET to see one fail, they're reasonably priced, and you can't see the hoses anyhow so you lose the "bling" benefit of the colored hoses. Also, get an FC thermoswitch to drop the fan engagement to 97 deg. C - that's a HUGE help.

Intake - that sounds good, might want to do Adam's cheap stock airbox mod. Greddy elbow won't give you many ponies (if any) but looks keen.

Gauges - boost and water temp. Oil temp isn't that big of a deal at this point.

Items removed - again, stick with the sequential system. Believe it or not, it isn't cool to be Mr. "I ripped a buncha junk out of my car" . If you're having some sequential problems, get new check valves, test some solenoids, and get it running right. I'd keep the AC and get it working if I was you - chicks dig AC .

I think you're on the right path, but don't fool yourself - this will cost quite a bit of money. Mazda parts ain't cheap, and if a shop does the labor for you that'll run up a tab pretty quick.

I would also seriously consider a good, simple boost controller, like the Profec B. With the mods you're looking at, the stock boost control will run away with itself and you'll get some pretty good spiking. Get a boost controller, set it to 10psi, enjoy. If that's stretching your budget, you might have to drill the pills out or play with a manual boost controller.

Do the above and you'll have a solid, reliable, fast, and emissions-friendly car that will be great to drive.

Dale

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

The shop that's doing the rebuild recommends 3mm seals and they have been building motors for a long time and have a machine shop that uses a CNC machine for milling the rotors.

Mahjik, thanks for the info on the stock ecu with 1300's, that was very helpful! Now I know why the shop's head mechanic kinda looked at me funny when he asked me if I was getting a PFC and I said "no" .. not sure if he remember the secondaries are 1300's.

I will be getting the FC thermoswitch.

I could care less what chicks want in my FD, lastly would be A/C so they should just wear less clothes and sweat on me Yes I'm a happy pervert!

The fuel pump is already rewired, good point, and yes a new fpd.

The stock turbos are toast and I really, really don't want to gamble spending $$ for rebuilding them OR searching for a used set from someone who "says" their in good shape and were working when pulled, blah blah. A set of BNR's might be overkill for what I want, and maybe 10 lbs is more than 10 lbs on a stock motor, so then I'ill turn it down to 7 or 8 or whatever. I've also heard from good people that the BNR's manual boost controller is comparable to most manual boost controllers.

I have had an FD before with the standard seq system and I really didn't care for it that much. It came on too soon for my tastes and the switch over to secondary feels weird. I like a steady constant boost after 2500 rpms or so. It gives me the choice to drive on-boost, or by shifting in the lower rpms, to drive off-boost.

I think my real choice is whether I want to spend more $$ for a PFC, or just get some new stock 850's. I will always have the 1300's for whenever I upgrade to a PFC, so that's not a waste, and I'm sure I could sell the 850's at a later time too.

I guess my mods seem "all over the place" because I'm really trying NOT to get carried away with expensive mods and once you start in a certain area, like managing higher boost levels, then it cascades into spending more $$$ for more mods ...

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

You do realize the BNR twins are REALLY expensive? Like $2300? You're going for a budget, but you're throwing the budget way out on those turbos. I'd also wonder if you'd be running enough to take advantage of them. IMHO, that's money that can be better spent elsewhere.

Buying used twins can be a gamble, but if you keep your eye out and look for a good seller with a good set, you'll be OK.

Some people swear by 3mm apex seals, but I'm not a fan. People have made HUGE horsepower numbers on 2mm seals - 3mm can stand a few more knocks before they go, it's really not a lot of insurance. Also, it's VERY easy to screw up on the machine work milling the rotors out. I've even seen cases where the machine work was done by the book and proper, but the inside casting of the rotor wasn't thick enough and the cut BARELY touched the oill passages inside, creating a VERY smoky engine. I wouldn't want to gamble a good set of rotors AND the possibility of taking the whole damn thing apart again on some VERY skimpy insurance.

I will say the secondary transition can be odd, but that's one of the beauties of the PowerFC - I lowered my transistion point so it's smooth. Nice, flat powerband. But, I would just be worried that your turbos would be pretty doggy non-sequential on a near stock setup. But, that's your call there.

With everything you're talking about, a PFC is pretty damn cheap. About $800 gets you a brand new one with commander. Instead of the BNR's, get the PFC and a good used set of twins and still have some extra money. That would be money VERY well spent - the car just drives SO much better with the PFC, and having that extra headroom for fuel and tuning is VERY nice.

Dale

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

I guess I'm thinking about the steps of upgrading. Adding a PFC later down the road is allot easier than replacing the turbos because the used set wears out, even if I find a so-called good set. I know the BNR's are pricey, but once their in, I won't be worrying about leaking, worn, smoking twins that need to replaced. I wonder how many FD owners had gone through rebuilds and purchases of used sets only to have to pull em out a short time later.

I do agree, running stock injectors with stock boost with BNR's is definitely a downplay... until I get a PFC. *sigh* I'm already maxed on budget with where I'm at...

I'm not sold on 3mm seals, thats what the shop likes to build, but I may stay with 2mm anyway.

So far, adding a pfc and upgraded intake is something I can do on my own pretty easy, so thats another reason for my steps to upgrade. I'd rather have the shop do the expensive work, than cut corners on the turbos and need to go back to the shop to get them replaced again, whether it's another used set or new. In the long run it could be more money ( and time and frustration ) than the $2300 for the BNR's.

What I need is the pfc. Maybe after a few months spending time breaking in the motor to get up to 2k of mileage, I can pick up the pfc and be ready to rock by July.

Thanks for the input, keep it coming; this is testing my plan which I need.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

+1 for stock 2 mm apex seals. I'm in the middle of a rebuild right now, and from what I've read and been told, there's no advantage to 3 mm with your plans. You'll just have some machining costs and likely a little less compression.
If your staying at stock boost, I'm not seeing the need for bigger injectors. Especially when you can have the all four stock injectors cleaned and flow tested for < $100 (including new O-rings and pintal (sp?) caps. .
Stainless OMP lines are probably a good idea, but you might want to re-think the new OMP...it's about $1400 from Malloy.

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

$1400 for an Oil Metering Pump? wow. didn't know that. well, then just the SS lines then!

I guess I'll know more once the shop shows me an estimate of the list I gave him...

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

This is exactly why I'm getting BNR's and not fudge around trying to find used twins.

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/car-finally-started-after-5-months-but-729164/

and yet another reason:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/real-reman-help-729887/

the-k-man

I would take my chances with a set of used twins. you can get a PFC, Datalogit, ignition system, and used twins for the same price as the BNRs. You could probably buy a second set of twins if the first set was no good, and still be cheaper than the BNRs. You can get the power you are looking for out of the stock turbos plus you will be able to tune for any upgrades in the future.
just my opinion.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

IF your budget is that strict, the best thing you can do is keep the engine stock and spend your budget toward reliability mods...cooling fuel system, etc. You live in Cali anyway, so modding can be a real headache for you. I know there are workarounds in place for modded car owners in Cali, but I think the general consensus is that if you live there and want a fast car, you have to buy one and not modify a lesser one because that is often illegal.

gorockrx

IF you do EXACTLY what DaleClark is telling you....you will be happy. IF you choose to Ignore the level of experience that he has....you will NOT be happy with the car, and most likely will experience MANY problems.

I have personally owened and worked on 7's for 15 years. Trust me when I say that Dale has your best interests in mind with his recommendations and he knows what he is talking about.

My opinion is that 3mm is a waste of money and totally unnecessary UNLESS there is slot damage that can ONLY be repaired by machining...and in that case you don't want that junk in your engine anyway....You don't need 3mm....spend the money elsewhere.

NO, you CAN'T run 1300cc secondaries on the stock ECU. GET A PFC. Get it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. Money well spent. You don't need any more injector size than you already have, but send them off and get them serviced and checked...make sure they are flowing/working PERFECTLY.

PLUS, with higher flowing turbos (also a waste of money in your case), intake, downpipe, high flow cat and RB cat-back you will in NO WAY be able to use the OEM ECU. LISTEN to the advice you are being given, and don't ignore it.

By the way...how do you know the turbos you already have are bad? Check them, and IF they are bad, get another set....you can get quite a few sets of OEMs for the price of 1 BNR.

Run sequential.....my opinion....

Use high grade pump gas

Do something about the boost, or you will have issues with high flow exhaust. Expensive issues....

For whats it's worth, my last 93 R1 with about 25k on an OEM reman put down about 330rwhp+ on stock sequential turbos at 12psi, Cold Air Box intake, full emissions, PFC, wired fuel pump, Upgraded SMIC and duct, dp, Bonez high flow cat, and RB CatBack. I drove it OVER 100 miles PER DAY to work and back, got 24mpg on the hwy and about 18 city, and NEVER had an issue with it! It was fast enough to toast my friends 93 Corvette and dead even with another friends 2005 C6 Corvette all the way to 170mph...... I had 15k in that car total.....

Listen to experience.....follow Dales advice.....be fast....be reliable....be happy!

Enjoy.....

gorockrx

ANOTHER VERY experienced rotorhead you should listen too......

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

Thanks I'm listening to everyone... and my turbos are bad, shaft play, leaking, etc. Manifold is good though.

One thing I didn't expect when starting this thread is the criticisms for getting BNR's. I was expecting more of the "you can't run those injectors with stock ecu", which I got right away from Mahjik, very straight to the point.

But for other people who read this thread I just want to say that I still feel BNR's are the right choice for me, and other owners like me for the following reasons:

- I don't have time/tools/experience to remove and install used twins if a set isn't working right. So, even though I could buy 10 pairs of used twins (not really as it's insanely hard to find even one or two good pair) for the price of 1 BNR, it doesn't really matter if I have to replace just one used set. For sure I will kicking myself in the *** 100 times.

- So, I don't want to go back to my shop and spend $700-800 (including the price of another set of used twins) to remove and install another set. Do this twice, and I'm very close to the cost of a set of BNR's. It's not just the cost of the part.. it's the cost of the part + paying a shop to pull and install another set. If we were talking about an intake box or intercooler and piping, then that I could do on my own all day long, np.

- Of all the people I've talked to in person and on the forums who are CURRENTLY using BNR's, not 1 had a complaint, only good things to say. However, getting a used set of turbos is at best like a 50/50 chance they will work, if they don't it's time and frustration I don't want to deal with replacing them.

So, to sum it up, I'm getting BNR's not because I want to boost 20 lbs, but because I want to have turbos that work and forget about it, not test and hope they run more than a couple thousand miles and then pay a shop to pull em and reinstall... time + frustration = extra cost of BNR's.

idk, maybe those that say to get used twins can and don't mind pulling them and searching around for another set and installing them again... maybe even to do this two or three times. Maybe you guys have big garages and so on, idk.

And just be clear, some of the mods I listed, I already have, like the re-wired upgraded fuel pump, alum ast, 1300 injectors already clean/flow tested.

Will not be running sequential, I've had it before and I hate it. It's problematic and I don't like boost coming on that early. I want a simplified system and with non-seq I will have a ported wastegate combined with stock intake box and stock intercooler, that should be enough to control boost creep/spike..

The PFC is really the 1 thing I need to add to my list. And the 1 thing I could remove is the samco hose kit, but I like red, so idk.

I appreciate everyone's oppinions, not trying to argue with more experienced members... but if the only reason for getting twins is that "I can swap em out if I have to" .. then that's not enough because for me, that's a very big issue and not something I'm going to underestimate.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

IF you want to go NS, then why spend 2500 bucks on twins that will respond no better than a single. A small single can respond very well if sized properly, and GREATLY simplify the engine bay. Cost is about the same, all told...and it is MUCH easier to work on a car with a single. You remove the massive heat sink that is the stock twin turbo setup.

I'd recommend a gt35r t3 or small t4, or a t04E setup on the cheaper side.

The only way I see BNR twins worthwhile, is if you are in love with the sequential setup and need the fast response. Otherwise, you are spending about teh same money, and have twice the complexity and no better response, plus they are harder to r/r should the need ever arise.

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

I thought the single setup was allot more money? Same fuel rails and injectors can be used? What about a fuel pressure regulator? I haven't read up enough about single setups, so I'm not really sure what's all involved.

Also, since I'm in Cali, won't that be considered borderline illegal mods? How about emissions since the smog pump gets removed? Again, not educated enough here.

What else would I need, besides a PFC, if I got this kit:

http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/gt35r%20kit.htm

MrNizzles

iTrader: (5)

idk, every time I start reading about a single setup, the list gets BIG and many other things including ignition upgrades, fuel upgrades, a better intercooler setup, cold air intake...

but I hear yah, single, once done, is the way it should be.... Maybe when I make senior level in a few years

Or if I had a bigger garage and more time I could learn to work on it... reminds me of a time when I was a kid, around 11 or so and our neighbor who worked at Lockhead with my dad, had a porsche 911 that he was rebuilding. This guy worked on the assembly line for the planes and whatever they build there, but this porsche was down to the chassis and he was doin' all this body work ... and it looked like fun. I never did see when it was finished, but somehow this car kinda feels like that.