Here's the skinny, I'm about to buy a rebuild it (as soon as...today probably), and I'm still not sure what to go with. I've always heard that RA apex seals were kickass, and I like the solid corner seals that Atkins has. So what I was planning on doing was getting the Atkins full rebuild kit for ~$1175 and if I had enough money I was going to get the RA apex seals and sell the Atkins apex seals separate.

I've been comparing these two kits for quite a while now, trying to determine what all comes in each one. I know, I've read the list for each one, but my main concern is the gasket set. I have my buddy's old engine, which he had already taken apart, and I don't have any seals, gaskets or anything, just the major components, so it's not like I can just forget about the gasket set. It looks like Atkins comes with everything, but the pic they have up is of one for an FC. I looked at the list of what comes in the gasket set from RA and it only gives options for FCs as well. So that made me wonder what the gasket set from Atkins contained also.

Has anyone bought a full kit (for an FD of course) from either place and can tell me what all they come with? I would call the places but I'm deployed right now. If any of you have any suggestions, be my guest. Oh, and I already did a search but I'm kinda short on time right now.


Also, some other things I thought about was possibly replacing the knock sensor and pulsation dampner, and does the oil metering pump get changed often or just when it goes out? I'm pretty well planning on getting a new pulsation dampner but the knock sensor is easy enough to get to at any time, and I thought I'd heard of replacing the oil metering pump but maybe I'm just thinking of checking the specs on it.

 

I bought the atkins master rebuild kit minus the apex seals and seal springs. i bought the RA super seals & 'race' springs. the atkins kit is as complete as they come w/ complete gasket sets etc...

supposedly no ra super seal has ever broken, that's what sold me. i'd just stay away from hurley seals, that's what i had when i bought the car.

 

So the RA seals have never broken??? They must wear down the housings faster or something... Maybe produce more heat or friction?


=Ben

 

The word is that the ra are ruff on housings.

 

get the atkins kit. the RA seals are too hard.

 

Mazda OEM.

 

+1

 

How much power can the oem seals take?

 

+2

 

Apparently theres a big misconception with the RA seals, the 3mm seals along with the racing apex seals are the ones that are too hard on the housings!
Now 2mm apex seals may or may not be harder on housings than oem, but if you think about it it makes no difference except for their ability to withstand more boost pressure and heat. With oem you might be able to reuse the housing if(and thats a HUGE IF) the housing does not get damaged once the apex seal breaks. RA will not break and damage the housing, they wont make compression and thats it. So if it happens lets say during tuning, chances are your housings will be ok and all youll have to replace is the coolant and apex seals! a mere 200 as opposed to having to buy a housing and the seals too!
I got the RA super seals with the racing spring and their basic rebuild kit and I am EXTREMELY HAPPY WITH THE KIT!!!!! You dont get manifold gaskets or bearings but you do get the GUTS of the needed parts! for about half the price. In my opinion you cant go wrong with this kit!!!!!

 

Rotary aviation 2mm seals are what I run. http://rotaryaviation.com/overhaul_kits.htm get the master rebuild kit and then call ray crowe for the needed gaskets. If I recall you'll need an oil pan gasket, water pump housing gasket, front cover gasket, teflon o-ring.

There might be another gasket that needs replacing...but it's eluding me atm.


After that I'd go with Mazda OEM. I mean seriously. Who's put more money into testing an apex seal than mazda?

 

Thanks for the input guys...

That is the exact way I wanted to do it, but I didn't know you could get the Atkins kit without those seals. Did you call them to order it special like that?

I was probably only going to get the regular RA seals anyway. The only problem with what you're saying is I need ALL the seals and gaskets, I'm putting it together with none of that.

I already priced a gasket kit from Ray and ran the numbers, it's still cheaper to get the Atkins kit and the apex seals somewhere else.

Basically what it boils down to is the Atkins kit, altogether, is the cheapest I've found. If this whole kit (including every I could get with the Atkins kit) is cheaper from Mazda, then I would probably just go with that and the stock apex seals like Rich, afterburn and Crispy suggested. The whole point is getting the Atkins kit without the apex seals was that I wanted to run RA seals specifically. I'll take what you guys said into consideration though.

And Rich, it's not that I don't want to bring my car to you and Ihor or not that I don't trust you or anything like that...I know for sure you guys could get the car running again haha...I just really want to rebuild this engine myself. If it doesn't run after that, you'll be seeing me when I have the money saved up again, haha.

 

I'm not sure what numbers you came up with but the gaskets from ray runs about 60 bucks (the ones I mentioned above) and the RA kit is 989.30 (shipping included) for a total of 1049.30 to that of Atkins kit of 1297.90 (shipping included).

Even if I left something out, that's a 248$ difference.


What exaclty am I'm missing for you to come out with an atkins kit cheaper?

 

Mazda OEM is the best choice, if anything buy the closeup kit from Rotary Aviation and everything else from Ray @ Malloy. Stock oem Mazda seals have been proven time and time again to handle as much power as you throw at them pump gas and c16 wise. It's all on tuning and engine building. RA Black Seals are good for someone who is not looking to make over 450whp. The RA Seals can handle some abuse from newbie tuning. If you're learning how to tune and not looking for killer power RA Seals are good to go. Anything else, Mazda OEM Seals have always been the way to go.

I've seen the RA Seals handle tons and tons of passes on the dyno and track. After pulling the motor apart we saw substantial wear/damage to the housings. Prior to pulling the motor apart the motor had good compression and vacuum at idle. So my opinion is that the RA seals are good for people learning how to tune their car and for someone who's not looking to make over 450whp. I'm not letting the cat out the bag but I'm no expert, I'm just stating the facts i've witnessed first hand.

So OEM Mazda Seals with a RA Closeup kit is a good combo in my opinion.

Jay7...

 

We have a car here making over 600 RWHP on the super seals, pump gas and meth and many cars making over 4 and 500 HP on the regular RA seals with no problems. We have also torn down a few motors with the seals in them and no excessive wear to the housings.

Just about every car that leaves the shop is a single turbo car making over 400 RWHP on RA seals. My opinion is if your car is stock twin then Mazda seals are fine. If you are running a single turbo and pushing for a lot more power then go RA. They will take the abuse.

 

I don't recommend using the factory paper oil pan gasket or front cover gasket. Right stuff silicone and metal front cover gasket

Eric, good luck with the build! No worries man, we're backed up through february right now anyway

 

http://www.nopistons.com/forums/inde...howtopic=67208

Be careful before you purchase.

B

 

I agree with the above on the Mazda OEM. Ray sells a kit for 1237.00 I belive. Or something like that.

 

I have a feeling this thread is going to either get interesting or out of hand...

I have my engine built with RA super seals and all i have to say is i am a believer

this engine has gone through hell bigtime, I bumped the antilag button once mid track at full boost in 3rd.......... It shot a huge fireball and bang that rocked the whole car....... the car lost compression on one rotor, limped it to the end, was pist so i beat the **** out of it on the return road......... somehow it slowly came out of it,



Still running healthy to this day......95% of what it was before that mistake

 

I showed Ray the kit from RA and he said his gasket set was somewhere around $400. Here is the message I got from him...

"Eric

LIM gasket $21.85
UIM $7.69
Exh man to engine $84.88 x2
Exh man to downpipe $68.75
Oil filter pedistal o-ring $2.88 x2
OMP o-ring $5.75
Oil level sensor o-ring $2.25
Exh man to turbo $52.44 (big) $33.13 (small) Turbo air in & out $4.75 x4
Turbo oil drain gaskets $3.13 x5

About $400. worth

Thanks
Ray"

Keep in mind this is not the engine I currently have in the car, this is an engine I got from a friend that came with NO gaskets whatsoever, so I need a full kit this time.

Actually I was planning on doing some tuning, and I'm definitely a newbie at that but I will have someone with me who's done it before. I would never go at it alone. I'm not looking for crazy HP, I'll be running stock twins still, at least for now. I don't really have the money to go single right now and I like the near-instant spool. I'm hoping for somewhere around 350, maybe 375 if possible. And I was probably going to go with the RA black seals if I go that route, I don't need the Super Seals.

I'm staying twin right now but hopefully at some point, still on this engine, I can go single. Still nothing crazy even with that though, maybe around 400 or 450.

Yeah I'm not sure which gaskets Atkins uses, I'll probably end up loading them up with silicone anyway, haha.

Thanks Rich! Hell I wouldn't be back until Feb anyway, but the only problem is I might be PCSing in March, if I can't extend at Pope. Hopefully headed out to Colorado Springs, but I'll probably end up in GA, haha. I still hope to make it up there before I leave though, I'll let you know for sure when the time comes.

Thanks for posting but it wouldn't let me view the thread. I'll try to look at it on another computer, gov't computers suck, haha.

I'll have to check with Ray, I never asked him how much an OEM kit would run.

I really hope it doesn't come to that. I wasn't trying to start an argument or flame war, just trying to get everyone's opinions. Everyone that has posted so far has been really good about not arguing, hopefully it will stay that way, haha.

Your luck sounds about like mine, maybe I'll go with RA anyway, haha.