cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

ive been doing a lot of research into what apex seal to use in my build. ive narrowed it down to the ra classic and the goopy seals. from what im reading they are both great and i will be happy with either BUT also from what im reading the ra seals are prone to eating housings without "heavy premix". i do 1oz/gallon. i dont know if that would be considered heavy but i would call it more than adequate. im not doing a big power mega build or anything and im still debating water injection. i just need a seal thats going to do right and give me as close to 100,000mi life span as possible. if the ra seal will be sufficient then i will go that route and i will use oem springs as it seems consistent that the ra springs are hit or miss. if spending a little more on the goopy seals is worth it in exchange for a little less housing wear then im cool with that too.

the one issue im having with researching these seals is that all the threads are super old. i figure by now there have been some changes in quality or something with the different brands. so some more current data/opinions.

what im asking is, what seal should i be going with? will the ra seals be fine and should i be worried about them eating the housings? should i go with the goopy seals and never think about it again?

maybe useful information:
street port 13b
single turbo
10-15lbs boost
water injection maybe
stock ignition
power fc

arghx

iTrader: (3)

In a situation like this you have to ask yourself, how much housing life am I willing to trade to protect against the unknown catastrophic event?

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

Protection>housing life

If I put housing life as a priority over protection and something goes wrong then nothing will really matter at that point. Then it comes down to how much more protection does one seal offer over the other in relation to the amount of wear it causes? If the difference in strength in marginal between the two but the wear rate differential is much greater then i would prefer the less wearing seal. If that makes sense. From what I'm reading both are really strong but the goopy seal appears to be more likely to take the turbo with it if it decides to egress the engine whereas the ra will bend.

The conditions in which a goopy seal will break, I feel as though I won't reach with my power levels. I'm projecting somewhere in the mid 300s and if I go with water injection then the chance for something going wrong are even less. But of course anything can happen....... the joy is not knowing

The ra seal is said to eat housings unless proper lubrication steps are taken to include heavy premix. I premix 1oz/gallon. Some say that is too much for what my set up is and that ratio is more for higher power, higher performance applications. With that, I think my ratio could be considered heavy? Maybe? I also don't run an omp. If my premix amount is sufficient then I'm willing to use the ra seal even if with that amount they will still wear the housings even to a lesser degree. One thread showed an 80k housing after an ra seal and it was beat up but the guy said he never lost compression and it ran great. I would be OK with that. Considering that goopy can rechrome housings now, what is there to worry about?

With that said, am I using the ra over the goopy? That's what it sounds like. Before committing, I would like some more opinions/input.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

You are asking the right questions regarding trade off of housing wear rates vs likelihood of damage during a catastrophic event. Unfortunately, only Mazda has data about seal material properties vs housing wear, lubrication requirements, and maximum combustion pressure allowed. Basically that's what a durability engineer and a piston ring/apex seal design release engineer at an OEM does. So you are going to have to go off anecdotes.

TL;DR the answer to your question is Goopy.

Mike93r1

iTrader: (5)

I'm in the same boat as cr-rex. I'm doing my motor now with a street port and I need to figure out the seals to use also. It sounds like IR Performance uses and recommends RXParts seals for anything mild to 700+ hp. But the Goopy seals sound like they are good as well. Another one to consider maybe E&J but I need to do some research on those. If anyone has anything to add I'm interested as im sure cr-rex is since this is his thread. Hope I didn't side track it.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

For most people, any setup that isn't stock twins, stock fuel system and bolt ons should prioritize protection from knock over longevity of housings. Once you get to single turbo, different fuel systems, standalone ECU, much higher boost, etc you add so many areas for something to go wrong.

If you've got stock twins, stock fuel system, stock ECU and just a downpipe and intake or something like that you should be ok with a seal that is better optimized for housing wear, such as OEM seals, Atkins, etc.

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

Your recommendation is sufficient to sway me to go with goopy. Not that anyone else isn't credible or anything but you're one of the juggernauts on this forum. That paired with everything I've read and other people's suggestions, I'm sold. Thank you for the help.

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

For what is going to be roughly a 400-450 hp build I would use stock apex seals, certainly wouldn't consider RA with their reputation of eating housings. Are you wanting something "better" than stock because you plan to get pre-ignition or don't trust your tuner?

Not familiar enough with the Goopy to comment on theirs.

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

im not wanting a non-stock seal in preparation for detonation or trust issues with my tuner. im not sure why those are the two things that come to mind. i want a non stock seal to use as an upgrade. i have the engine apart and there are definitely seals out there that offer some better traits than what stock offers, especially in modified form. i feel as though a seal other than stock would be best for my set up.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

Have you considered RX Parts? I have been using them for years in everything from mildly modified to 700hp+ cars without a single issue. I even had a customer who did an entire season of drag racing on oil metering only (I strongly recommend premixing). When the motor came apart for inspection the rotor housings were immaculate. I've used just about everything out there and find these work the best for the majority of applications.

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

cost isnt the major role in this rebuild but it is a factor. the rxparts seals break the budget for apex seal cost by quite a bit. i also have to consider what im using this car/engine for and try to keep away from overbuilding. this is a weekend warrior machine for cruising and car meets. i just need something that works well and is durable. the goopy and ra seals were the 2 that fit all the requirements. with arghx's recommendation, i called goopy and got all the information i could ever want. i will be using their seals and with the purchase of them, they discount the housing "refurbishing" service significantly so i will be getting that too. that along with my irons being redone by chipp, this engine should be pretty stout for a street car.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

Remember that a set of rotor housings are significantly more expensive when they get trashed than the amount of money you may be saving going with a cheaper seal. Cheap seals are cheap for a reason.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

^^^ good advice there.

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

Is the implication being made that since the goopy seals aren't as expensive as the rx seals, that makes them not good or not as good?

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

In order to be professional I will not comment on anyone else's seals, but I will say that over the last two decades I have tried just about everything you can think of, and I have found RX Parts to offer the best balance of strength and longevity without trashing the rotor housings. I've seen some seals destroy a brand new set of housings in as little as 10,000 miles. That is thousands of dollars of damage vs $100-200 difference in the price of seals. I could make more money selling other brands, but I will only sell what I feel is the best for the customer.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

II also didn't mean to imply anything other than a $1-200 difference for a crucial part in the scope of an engine build is chump change. A set of spark plugs and a synthetic oil change will run you nearly that.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Housings can wear out. Or they can get trashed when you blow an apex seal. Pick your poison.

My '95 I picked up has an RB catback and a JDM downpipe. That's it. Would I put a stronger/harsher apex seal in it when it comes time to rebuild? No, because stock engines on stock ECU with only a catback wear out, they don't blow up. It just doesn't happen. So an OEM or softer seal makes sense.

My single turbo car had RA Super seals. It detonated, because those things happen. And the seals survived.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

I use oem in stock or near stock builds.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

This was a good housing. I won't say which seals did this but they were not stock or RX Parts.

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

what is this tactic youre using? you wont come out and be direct with any of your statements and then post a picture of a worn housing without stating which seals were used or giving any other details on how they got that way. i would be willing to bet there are other factors that contribute to housing wear in that fashion and not JUST the apex seal from typical use. im all for a disagreement and a discussion to defend our viewpoints but whatever this is youre doing makes no sense.

think about that post....... "i wont say which seals did this but they were not stock or rx parts". if i had a motor built somewhere and it made all the power in the world and lasted a million miles and i went out and said "i wont say who built it but it wasnt irp" do think that would be a fair statement? think about it........ really think about it......

to me that translates to "this housing is worn and in bad shape because they were using something other than what i use". being illusive and ambiguous doesnt make for a valid point. by intentionally not specifying what seal it was, youre indirectly taking a shot at EVERY OTHER producer of apex seal with the exception of oem and rx parts. would you agree? you say you want to be professional and not comment on anyone elses seals but this is EXACTLY what you just did. you just did it kind of sideways.

for example, are your motor mounts better than the ones that himni offers because they cost more? are the parts listed on your website better because people have the opportunity to pay more for them vs somewhere else? are the services you offer better than other places that charge less for the same thing?

what does it matter if you call out another manufacturer? besides being a shop, youre a consumer just like anyone else and your are more than entitled to your opinion of a product or service. so long as youre not outright being an ***, you can respectfully express your viewpoint of another product without fear of reprisal.

the one thing about the FD community that i cant seem to comprehend is that for whatever reason it seems to be a collective mindset that "if its isnt expensive then it must be junk". i see it as an extreme version of you get what you pay for. something doesnt have to be expensive to be good and something expensive isnt always good.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

No tactic whatsoever. The amount of money I make on a set of seals is negligible for me to push one brand over another. However, with over 2 decades building motors I know what works best for various applications and I will state again, for a moderately modified to high hp rotary I found rx parts work better over other brands I have tried. This includes everything from how they clearance, compression numbers, resistance to detonation/warping, and longevity.

As for motor mounts, what does that have to do with this conversation? But since you went there, I use a far higher grade of polyurethane than some other manufacturers, which in turn costs more.

You put up a post asking an opinion of what seals to use. Expect to get answers with various opinions. Its your motor. Do what you feel is best.

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

I brought up the mounts as an example to further clarify my point. With so much experience building motors, you should know very well that things change, products improve, products degrade, companies go out of business, ect. I'm willing to bet "decades ago" you weren't using all the same parts you're using now. In another year or two you could very well be using another type of seal and saying the rxparts seals were good but (insert brand) are better. What did it take for you to switch from what you were using and recommending to backing the rxparts seals? I would imagine not so long ago you had a favorite seal that was your go to.

I started the thread for recommendations yes, but by making the statements you made you brought the thread somewhere it shouldn't have gone. Intentional or not, your statement made the implication that any other option outside of what you use is inferior. If you wanted to remain professional as you put it, there was a million other ways you could have made your recommendation.

My beef is the roundabout way you tried to talk down on other products because they weren't the ones you use and trying to hint at me being cheap for using something not as expensive. There will always be a more expensive version of something, it doesn't necessarily mean that the item of lesser cost is inferior. It just means it costs less. Just the same as you endorse the rxparts seals there are people that will endorse the goopy seals but they don't need to talk down about other products to do so. They only need to state facts show evidence.

Tom93R1

iTrader: (2)

What's wrong with that? If he thought RA or Goopy seals were superior then that's what he would use and recommend right?

silentblu

iTrader: (1)

Completely agree, that's just like me saying I only have used XXX seals and they are great, because I only have used/have experience with one type of seal.
Seals and Oils (Synthetic vs dino) on the forum have are almost taboo subjects.

Flaming or saying bad things about one or the other has always been a contentious subject.
If you have done your research you will see all the BS going on in those threads. Read NRS, steel science as recent ones that come to mind.

A number of things can go wrong or excuses can be made.
Owner used not enough premix
Owner used too much premix
Owner used synthetic oil
Owner used dino oil
Owner did ont break in the motor correctly

Think of it from Ihor's perspective, XYZ seals do not work I do not use them, XYZ seals goes on a rampage against Ihor. He has nothing to gain by not recommending a seal. Take it from the glass half full perspective that ABC seals work and that is what I recommend.

Go to any engine builder and it is probably the same story, I have only used ABC seals and only recommend them, other seals come into my shop, but I cannot comment because I do not know what conditions they were in.

You're looking for the dirt, years of experience, and no ones going to tell you them, comments like these and threads like these reduce the "heavy hitters" from wanting to chime in or give their experience.

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

I think Jon at Goopy would be the best to comment on the metallurgy of his seals.

As for RX Parts, most of this info is proprietary. I will say that the RX Parts are significantly stronger than oem seals in withstanding detonation. The are also not hardened to the point where they would chew up the rotor housings. The will bend before they break, but not so easily as the seals you mentioned. I have yet to hear of anyone breaking a RX Parts seal and the only ones that I've seen warp were a result of severe tuning or timing errors. A warped seal will cause a loss of compression, but no internal damage. A set of seals and close up oring kit is a few hundred dollars vs thousands for new housings and rotors, possibly a turbo when a stock seal breaks and exits the motor. As we all know, one good knock will break a stock seal and cause internal engine damage 9 out of 10 times. This is why I do not recommend stock seals for higher hp builds. The more boost you run, the more power you make, the more heat you create, the margin for error becomes exponentially smaller. All it takes is a bad tank of gas, a tuning mistake, a fuel system component hiccup, and you have a hurt motor.

As for a na build, I would go with ceramics.

Back to my original post, I asked have you considered rx parts? Not because I make a ton of money on them or that I even care to make a sale. But because I find they work best for the majority of applications from my own personal experiences on my own cars before I even put them in a customer's motor.

Another thing to consider: Just because one seal works great in a particular application doesn't mean it will be ideal in another. Something that works in the aviation industry or a drag car may not be the best for a street or road race car. Does it make it a bad product, not necessarily. But definitely something to consider when making your choice of what to sue for your build.