WARTHOG

Hi, from across the pond, these pics are for T-VON for his info, to assist him with his 20b project. My project is to get as low as i can on my intake temps. This is only the first stage of the project, fitting and running Air-to-Water Charge Cooler stand alone system with car air-con left in and undertray still fitted -- which i have managed to do. The next stage is to get the direct flow from the charge cooler to the Greddy elbow perfect which will entail some minor fabrication and movement of the two fuse boxes. The last stage will be to use the air-con system and another charge cooler to super cool the water prior to going into the charge cooler, without using the cars air-con pump and thereby bleeding of bhp. The last stage being the most frustrating as i have worked it all out but the expert i need to do the practical work is out of the country at the moment. So i will have to wait.
My intake temps at the elbow are 30c @ 0.95 bar of boost 362 fwbhp and 302 rwbhp which is a start. Heat soak is not an issue with the way i have done the install, even after long trips or traffic jams the charge cooler stays cool to the touch.

SiKoPaThX

iTrader: (2)

Whoa...This is pretty wild!

Kento

Um...photos and explanation on how you managed to graft an AWD system onto an FD, please.

ChrisChung125

iTrader: (3)

i think he means fly wheel when he says fwbhp...

WARTHOG

In answer to fwbhp that = fly wheel bhp rwbhp = rear wheel bhp @ 300ft/lbs,
0.95 bar will = @ 0.1 bar this is = to 1.45 psi approx , therefore approx 14psi of boost. Further work to be done in the next month includes Xtreme clutch, lightened flywheel + counter balance weight, fuel tank swirl pump kit and water injection kit via the elbow. The high boost will then be set @ 1.2 bar ( approx 17.5psi ) this is on stock twins which have not been touched. I will only be using that high boost on the 1/4 mile strip, not the road. My A/F line so far has been exceptionally healthy and thats running 95 ron on low boost setting and 98 ron on high with no other additives, fuel running @ 85%. I have 1300cc secondary injectors, 044 boshe fuel pump, PFC ecu Boost controler etc on a Hurley street ported racing seal tips new engine. Without question she will make over 400 fwbhp as when she did her last run and made 362 fwbhp the standard clutch was slipping, hence the new clutch to go in.
In answer to pics of install. The system is simple ( check out the PWR site www.pwr.com they are down under in Aus ) as can be seen in the pics you have a large chargecooler ( in place of the intercooler air to air ) inside that you have a water rad, the water is within a stand alone system with it's own pump.The pipe comming off the cc on the left go's down to the small water rad in the last pic and is cooled by the flow of air when driving and it's own electric fan which is on all the time ( as it is so far away from the engine bay it does not pick up heat soak ) the water then leaves that small rad go's through the pump and comes back up into the cc where it flows through the internal rad and starts it's cycle again.The hot air from the turbo's enters the cc and must pass through the cold water fins, where it is cooled down progressively as it moves towards the coldest water coming into the rad from the right, the hot air reacts with the cold water fins and picks up moisture thereby making it heavier and further slowing it's passage through the cc, this slowing down is fractional but it happens, the air then leaves the cc and re-enters the turbo's in the normal way via the Greddy elbow and into the plenum, just the same as if it was going through an intercooler system. If you look close at the main pic of the cc you will see that i have cut down the old air intake scoop that used to collect the air for the stock mazda intercooler, this further cools the outside of the cc but more importantly it allows a previously restricted air flow to blast into the engine bay as reduce the temps under the hood. The only major fabrication work involved is to make a frame to hold the small water rad & fan and to make a cradle to hold the cc and at the same time the ast, the battery has been turned around ( smaller battery same power output ) The fan and the pump both have ther own on/off switches in the car ( i have used two FD switches the fog light ones in the blank switch slots i had in the area by the ash tray ) Oh, the only other things that you have to do are trim the inside of the bottom try to get the small rad to fit in and redivert the power steering pipe from the front of the car by removing that hole twisty turn piping from it's rubber hose joints either side of the engine bay and reconnect across the car . Total time to fit including air-pump removal and Greddy pulley kit install as well as designing and fabricating and install of electrics 16 hrs. Best investment in time spent on the car i have ever done.It's that simple.
The lads in Aus use these on there FD engines and they are running 7's for the 1/4, if it's good enough to cool there FD engines in the heat of the day that they get, then it's good enough for me.
If you are really interested in actual pics of all things above then the next time she is up on the ramp i will take some pics and post for you.

saxyman990

Just as an FYI,

BHP stands for Brake Horsepower, and is a measurement of Hp at the crank (flywheel). "fwbhp" is not a commonly accepted acronym, and is therefore extremely confusing to people. The acronym for Rear Wheel Horsepower is "rwhp"

In other words, BHP is flywheel power; RWHP is at the rear wheel.

-Rob

Cgotto6

iTrader: (8)

So are you saying that BHP is a measure of how much HP your brakes put out?

Only kidding.

RuffRyder

iTrader: (1)

Wow nice car

maxcooper

Brake HP (BHP) just means it was measured on a dyno with a brake, as opposed to an inertial dyno. Though it is customary to report "flywheel" HP that was measured on a dyno with a brake, and to report "at the wheels" HP that was measured on an intertial dyno, there is nothing about "BHP" that denotes that it is power measured at the flywheel (though it certainly has that connotation).

-Max

saxyman990

I'm not sure I completely agree with you Max. You are right that this term came from the fact that the measurements are usually done using an absorption dynamometer, or "brake." But, according to SAE (and the standard dictionary), "Brake Horsepower: A measurement of the actual usable power (not calculated power) measured at the output shaft (usually the crankshaft) rather than at the driveshaft or the wheels." Thus BHP is used in reference for power at the crank. It is a misnomer to state "rwbhp."

-Rob

Scrub

iTrader: (25)

Nice setup, I saw this on a 3 rotor boat a little while ago and thought it would be a good idea to incorporate into a 7....I guess you got to it before I could even think of trying it. Amazingly you managed to cram that in there. With a little water injection you should be able to get the temps even cooler.... congratulations on a nice setup

WARTHOG

Thank you all for your kind words. Sorry for the difference in the way we talk about power over here in the UK.
It is suprising how much room is free under the install in the engine bay.
Hope my explanation above is of some use to others.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

What size PWR are you using??
I thought about getting one and possibly using it on my 20B project. But I was thinking about doing pre-water cool than thru fmic.. But pressure drop was my concern and wasn't sure if that was over kill. The PWR looks pretty big.. thinking its not the 6x10 and 19 inch long?? Nice set up!

KevinK2

Nice job. A/L ic's are very appropriate for the FD, but mostly overlooked in the US. Low pressure drop, low lag, low space required.

Where is 2nd exhanger mounted?

For AC kick, why not use stock AC system? Like a bottom to top flow front IC exchanger, used with a smaller front condensor (vs oem) with still-cold discharge through the top tank. This would allow precooling during staging, then shut off AC for run.

Ford SVT has a separate pre cooled surge tank design concept, that can be valved in for a cold burst of fluid.

WARTHOG

The second cc will be mounted below the large 19" cc along the bottom rail between the ast and the hks induction filters.
I had considered doing the shot of nos type supercool water that Ford did but hey if you are going to make a statement make it , don't do something someone else has done. I want the use of the air-con gases cooling ability without using the cars air-con pump and thereby robbing me of hard earned hp, as well as sending lies to the Apexi pfc to keep it running on high boost. When i switch it on i want it to stay on until i want it off, that may be all day or just for the 1/4 runs. As i said above i have not fitted the second cc yet as awaiting the return to UK of the car air-con specialist i will be using for the techi side of things. It will work, look at the rotary engine" That will never seal, it will never work".And just look at us now.

WARTHOG

Just a small update..second cc not yet done..but finished other mods..
So far on stock twins @ 1.2 bar, with water injection, 435 hp @ fly and 365 hp @ wheels.
We ran out of map on the dyno so i have got to go back and have a 3 band sensor fitted and back on the dyno on thursday. Will post results and end boost fig ( if we don't go bang should be interesting to see what the stock twins will max out at. )

Speedworks

Cool!

gdnimr0d

iTrader: (4)

if you could please post more pics of that setup and what are the dimensions of that air to water intercooler. also is that a miniature AST between the thermostat housing and the A-W intercooler. More pics would be greatly appreciated thanks and nice setup....i run a fmic and at my elbow i read on a hot summer day around 28C but then again i have heat soak and with your setup you don't ...peace out

theorie

iTrader: (31)

what is the point of going:

AIR > WATER > AIR???

how is this any better than just AIR > AIR?

seems to be like an AIR > WATER > AIR setup just adds more parts....and it seems like it wouldnt cool as well

Sy.

as far as i understand . Air does cool air better but as soon as you stop "heat soak" but the water keeps its coolness so is "as i think" better for over all cooling.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

I'm not 100% on this but as others said, water has better heat transfer and hence will soak most of the heat first and air to air IC will finish the job by bringing the temp close to outside temp. Well, that was my theory. But the problem I saw with air/water IC is that it needs a radiator to cool the water back down. So, water that being circulating thru the IC will never be clost to outside temp. Unless you could cool the water below outside temp by adding cooling coil (like AC) or Ice for short term use.

Kento

Air/liquid ICs are great for short boost usage, but their weakness is that you are creating yet another transfer medium for the heat, which takes additional time to achieve. This causes a gradual buildup in the temperature of the primary liquid coolant, as it cannot shed heat as quickly as it absorbs it since the absorption rate of liquid is much quicker than air per area (unless you had a huge heat exchanger, which would add unnecessary weight and bulk).

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Damn I didn't even realize that he started a thread discussing this.

AndrewDevlin

for those uninitiated in thermodynamics and heat transfer,

air posses the greatest thermal restriction to cooling systems, that is the reason why most air-water radiators have such a high air side surface area

with a water-air side u can reduce that to some degree (with the possiblilty of lower temps considering your not limited to ambient temperatures), but at the disadvantage of adding weight (ie water, and accessories) which could become considerable enough to offset those benefits

in reply to kentos post about it creating additional time, i dont believe this is true, you are still using the same conduction transfer medium (aluminium) and any slight increase in time will be neglagible considering the wall thickness are < 1mm

your most likely going to be worried about the transient effects of water temp build up which is a function of 'its' own cooler and its volume... ie can your water maintain its temperature over its period of use

hope that helps

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

Yep, air-to-water, intercooler are VERY efficient, just a bulky package. They are the "secret" to the forced-induction Mercedes out today. Also, if you use your own water-supply (he tapped into the engine cooling system), you can even be more efficient.

What I'd like to do, is have an Air-to-water exchanger made in the shape of the stock intercooler, and place the radiator of it on the side without an oil-cooler on my touring FD, for more stealth . . .

:-) neil