Power PC best for sequential?
#1
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Power PC best for sequential?
I'm an old timer finally getting back in the FD scene. I've built big turbo cars and daily drove high hp RX7s with full 4" exhaust on harsh coils.......but now I'm old. FDs are rare and I appreciate them for what they were originally designed as, a well balanced drivers car. After searching for a bit and not wanting to pay USDM prices for a near stock car I was planning on putting miles on, I bought a RHD from Japan and is currently making the trip to the mainland.
The only mods i plan are for reliability and what I would call "bpu" (I used to build a lot of supras too) which is essentially intake, exhaust and supporting mods to keep the car reliable with those such as fuel pump, twin power etc.
The car as it sits is stock with only a catback on it which will eventually be replaced with something else of my choice that is on the quiet end but still flows decently. I've got a few in mind but I need to vet the car first and finish the remodel on the house before the wife will allow more funds to be used on the toys.
Goal is 300-350 reliable hp keeping sequential operating properly. After replacing all fluids and making sure the car is solid i plan to install my autoexe intake and supporting mods. When the stock twins give up the ghost then go 99 spec or sp twins or something similar but still keep the same power range and sequential.
My main question is are their any "modern" EMSs that can properly control the factory sequentials out of the box without custom inputs and outputs to control the solenoids? Last time I was tuning was 15+ years ago and I was building cars with Microtech, E6K, AEM V1 and V2 was the new hot thing. Power FC was always the go-to for RX7s that didn't want to go full standalone. I am still seeing a lot of power FC posts and I'm honestly surprised it's so widely used without many of the "modern" features of the newer EMSs (infinity, Haltech 2500 etc.) Is power FC still the best bet to control the factory sequential system? I'm well aware of the awesome banzai thread testing all the basic parts for standard upgrades in which a power FC is used there ad well.
Sorry for the long post, ive been searching threads without much luck and the EMS forum is fairly dead. Most of the info in there are for full builds and not associated with sequential control. I did have AEM V1 running well and controlling sequential on my last FD but it took a lot of work and would rather go Power FC than do all that work again for my power goals.
The only mods i plan are for reliability and what I would call "bpu" (I used to build a lot of supras too) which is essentially intake, exhaust and supporting mods to keep the car reliable with those such as fuel pump, twin power etc.
The car as it sits is stock with only a catback on it which will eventually be replaced with something else of my choice that is on the quiet end but still flows decently. I've got a few in mind but I need to vet the car first and finish the remodel on the house before the wife will allow more funds to be used on the toys.
Goal is 300-350 reliable hp keeping sequential operating properly. After replacing all fluids and making sure the car is solid i plan to install my autoexe intake and supporting mods. When the stock twins give up the ghost then go 99 spec or sp twins or something similar but still keep the same power range and sequential.
My main question is are their any "modern" EMSs that can properly control the factory sequentials out of the box without custom inputs and outputs to control the solenoids? Last time I was tuning was 15+ years ago and I was building cars with Microtech, E6K, AEM V1 and V2 was the new hot thing. Power FC was always the go-to for RX7s that didn't want to go full standalone. I am still seeing a lot of power FC posts and I'm honestly surprised it's so widely used without many of the "modern" features of the newer EMSs (infinity, Haltech 2500 etc.) Is power FC still the best bet to control the factory sequential system? I'm well aware of the awesome banzai thread testing all the basic parts for standard upgrades in which a power FC is used there ad well.
Sorry for the long post, ive been searching threads without much luck and the EMS forum is fairly dead. Most of the info in there are for full builds and not associated with sequential control. I did have AEM V1 running well and controlling sequential on my last FD but it took a lot of work and would rather go Power FC than do all that work again for my power goals.
#2
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (17)
Lots to debate here but my personal individual opinion is that for your power goals on a near stock car the PFC is just right. Specially if you already have it or get it second hand for a lower price.
And even more so if using the Datalogit and the recently developed FC Tweak software to fine tune your map.
If starting from scratch, getting an all new setup, then maybe a newer PnP solution might be a better investment to future proof your setup.
And even more so if using the Datalogit and the recently developed FC Tweak software to fine tune your map.
If starting from scratch, getting an all new setup, then maybe a newer PnP solution might be a better investment to future proof your setup.
Last edited by neit_jnf; 11-08-22 at 08:28 PM.
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boostin13b (11-08-22)
#4
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#5
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boostin13b (11-08-22)
#6
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
that's good to hear. Massive price difference between power FC and a 2500 but that may be the route once I start digging deeper. I had thought I heard Apexi was going to put out a more modern replacement for the power FC as well.
#7
Rotary Enthusiast
A more modern version of the FC would be sweet, but low volume production. Where did you hear that?
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#8
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I would take that with a grain of salt as it has just been word of mouth and probably whishful thinking. I haven't been able to find anything concrete on it searching. The only thing that was somewhat hopeful was a youtube video I saw (can't remember which one but I'll try to track it down) where someone was visiting Apexi in their video and it was mentioned there was a power FC replacement or update in the future.
#9
It is true, the 414BZ004 has been replaced with the 414-Z004. We have already started shipping them out late last month. I did not have chance to plug one in or even open a box to look, just wanted to get them shipped. Expecting another shipment later this month. Fairly sure it was driven by the chip shortage. The PFC and Commander are now sold individually.
If you go to the Apexi USA website you will see that the 414BZ004 has been discontinued
If you go to the Apexi USA website you will see that the 414BZ004 has been discontinued
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 11-09-22 at 08:31 AM.
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#10
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Lots to debate here but my personal individual opinion is that for your power goals on a near stock car the PFC is just right. Specially if you already have it or get it second hand for a lower price.
And even more so if using the Datalogit and the recently developed FC Tweak software to fine tune your map.
If starting from scratch, getting an all new setup, then maybe a newer PnP solution might be a better investment to future proof your setup.
And even more so if using the Datalogit and the recently developed FC Tweak software to fine tune your map.
If starting from scratch, getting an all new setup, then maybe a newer PnP solution might be a better investment to future proof your setup.
the PFC gets used because the install is easy and its really accurate
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Sgtblue (11-09-22)
#11
501 WHP Club
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And the debate begins. I've used both power fc's and haltech elites pnp version and it's not much of a comparison. Its 2022 now, so engine protection features, remote tuning, and performance scalability is not a bad way to go if you're driving a $30 to $60 grand FD.
Engine parts are not easy to find and quite expensive these days that's why I prefer some sort of engine protection for an over boost scenario or anything that can be controlled as a safety net by an experienced tuner.
Engine parts are not easy to find and quite expensive these days that's why I prefer some sort of engine protection for an over boost scenario or anything that can be controlled as a safety net by an experienced tuner.
Last edited by Sammy Built; 11-09-22 at 09:51 AM.
#12
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
It is true, the 414BZ004 has been replaced with the 414-Z004. We have already started shipping them out late last month. I did not have chance to plug one in or even open a box to look, just wanted to get them shipped. Expecting another shipment later this month. Fairly sure it was driven by the chip shortage. The PFC and Commander are now sold individually.
If you go to the Apexi USA website you will see that the 414BZ004 has been discontinued
If you go to the Apexi USA website you will see that the 414BZ004 has been discontinued
#13
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Is the PowerFC old? Yep. Does the Haltech have a ton more features? Yep.
But for a mild bolt-on setup the PowerFC is tried and true.
IMHO if you are going with a setup like you are talking about, PFC all day long. I would only go Haltech if you REALLY want to play around with all the extra features and what not but you can just as easily end up with a hassle if you aren't careful with what you are doing. If you are going single turbo or doing something exotic the Haltech is a great way to go.
I've had a PFC on my car for probably 15 years. Blown zero engines, had MANY miles of fun, and ZERO hassle.
FC-Tweak pushes it over the edge with being able to auto-tune and clean up your maps and settings.
Dale
But for a mild bolt-on setup the PowerFC is tried and true.
IMHO if you are going with a setup like you are talking about, PFC all day long. I would only go Haltech if you REALLY want to play around with all the extra features and what not but you can just as easily end up with a hassle if you aren't careful with what you are doing. If you are going single turbo or doing something exotic the Haltech is a great way to go.
I've had a PFC on my car for probably 15 years. Blown zero engines, had MANY miles of fun, and ZERO hassle.
FC-Tweak pushes it over the edge with being able to auto-tune and clean up your maps and settings.
Dale
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#14
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Is the PowerFC old? Yep. Does the Haltech have a ton more features? Yep.
But for a mild bolt-on setup the PowerFC is tried and true.
IMHO if you are going with a setup like you are talking about, PFC all day long. I would only go Haltech if you REALLY want to play around with all the extra features and what not but you can just as easily end up with a hassle if you aren't careful with what you are doing. If you are going single turbo or doing something exotic the Haltech is a great way to go.
I've had a PFC on my car for probably 15 years. Blown zero engines, had MANY miles of fun, and ZERO hassle.
FC-Tweak pushes it over the edge with being able to auto-tune and clean up your maps and settings.
Dale
But for a mild bolt-on setup the PowerFC is tried and true.
IMHO if you are going with a setup like you are talking about, PFC all day long. I would only go Haltech if you REALLY want to play around with all the extra features and what not but you can just as easily end up with a hassle if you aren't careful with what you are doing. If you are going single turbo or doing something exotic the Haltech is a great way to go.
I've had a PFC on my car for probably 15 years. Blown zero engines, had MANY miles of fun, and ZERO hassle.
FC-Tweak pushes it over the edge with being able to auto-tune and clean up your maps and settings.
Dale
#15
Rotary Enthusiast
No extra capabilities. FC Tweak is run on a laptop to help tune, it’s not an active part of the process. You can run the PFC through an android head unit though.
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#17
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#18
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Yup, a bad tune, poorly planned & executed modifications and/or foolish expectations will do that every time, doesn't matter what ECU box you're running. And all the safeguards and engine protection features of a modern ECU won't help if they are not enabled or configured correctly.
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mr2peak (11-10-22)
#19
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#20
Juris Doctor
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I run PowerFC with Tweak and it has been flawless. All tuning is really based on how good your tune is. I've started tuning Haltechs now and have been finding a lot of faults with prior people's tunes. They have all the safety features in the world but they only work if properly set up. Additionally, the safeguards are not a guarantee to save your motor since a rotary is so knock limited/sensitive.
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iceman4357 (11-10-22)
#21
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
BTW FC-Tweak has some stuff where it will do overboost/over-rev protection, basically pulling timing back if your boost goes wacky.
As stated, there is no bulletproof tune, especially with a rotary. Use good parts, keep up on maintenance, do repairs RIGHT, and you will have zero issues. My FD has NEVER left me stuck and I even drove it FOR WORK doing service calls for a while.
BTW, this thread is the Gold Standard on what you can do with a twin turbo car with a PFC -
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
350hp to the ground, solid and quality. If you look at Banzai's web page they have car after car making this kind of power and it's simple, clean, and reliable. 350hp in an FD is an INSANELY fun and fast car and you aren't constantly worrying about breaking stuff.
Dale
As stated, there is no bulletproof tune, especially with a rotary. Use good parts, keep up on maintenance, do repairs RIGHT, and you will have zero issues. My FD has NEVER left me stuck and I even drove it FOR WORK doing service calls for a while.
BTW, this thread is the Gold Standard on what you can do with a twin turbo car with a PFC -
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
350hp to the ground, solid and quality. If you look at Banzai's web page they have car after car making this kind of power and it's simple, clean, and reliable. 350hp in an FD is an INSANELY fun and fast car and you aren't constantly worrying about breaking stuff.
Dale
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#22
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
BTW FC-Tweak has some stuff where it will do overboost/over-rev protection, basically pulling timing back if your boost goes wacky.
As stated, there is no bulletproof tune, especially with a rotary. Use good parts, keep up on maintenance, do repairs RIGHT, and you will have zero issues. My FD has NEVER left me stuck and I even drove it FOR WORK doing service calls for a while.
BTW, this thread is the Gold Standard on what you can do with a twin turbo car with a PFC -
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
350hp to the ground, solid and quality. If you look at Banzai's web page they have car after car making this kind of power and it's simple, clean, and reliable. 350hp in an FD is an INSANELY fun and fast car and you aren't constantly worrying about breaking stuff.
Dale
As stated, there is no bulletproof tune, especially with a rotary. Use good parts, keep up on maintenance, do repairs RIGHT, and you will have zero issues. My FD has NEVER left me stuck and I even drove it FOR WORK doing service calls for a while.
BTW, this thread is the Gold Standard on what you can do with a twin turbo car with a PFC -
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...added-1104322/
350hp to the ground, solid and quality. If you look at Banzai's web page they have car after car making this kind of power and it's simple, clean, and reliable. 350hp in an FD is an INSANELY fun and fast car and you aren't constantly worrying about breaking stuff.
Dale
#23
Urban Combat Vet
iTrader: (16)
IIRC there isn’t emissions in Florida either so a programmable would let you remove half of the vacuum complexity and weight while letting the car breath a bit better…all while avoiding the CEL’s. A PFC is probably the least expensive way to do that.
FWIW I’m much older and learning to be a tuner is way too much for my small brain. So maybe I just don’t know what I’m missing but…
My mods are in my signature (+ DP, hi-flow cat and RB dual tip) and the car has been on a modified base map for probably the last 15 years and 60k miles with zero issues. Decent mileage, easy starts, good idle and plug life. A guess back then by a knowledgeable and experienced former member AND later pretty much confirmed by Banzai’s thread was 300 whp.
FWIW I’m much older and learning to be a tuner is way too much for my small brain. So maybe I just don’t know what I’m missing but…
My mods are in my signature (+ DP, hi-flow cat and RB dual tip) and the car has been on a modified base map for probably the last 15 years and 60k miles with zero issues. Decent mileage, easy starts, good idle and plug life. A guess back then by a knowledgeable and experienced former member AND later pretty much confirmed by Banzai’s thread was 300 whp.
Last edited by Sgtblue; 11-09-22 at 04:12 PM.
#24
Full Member
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Had a similar internal debate about trying to source Haltech or something newer for more "modern" technology. Can't remember all the research but it was pretty nebulous (to me personally), things like injector resolution and what not.
The one feature I did really want was the ability to tune for 50/50 meth AI. Of course, you can tune for it still on the PFC but because there is no integration with the AI kits (such as flow sensors, etc.) you now have a single point of failure. If the nozzle gets blocked, becomes loose, or the pump fails and you make a pull, could be the end right there.
That being said, doesn't seem like meth AI is necessary for a street driven car.
Even for a HPDE car, it's seems like a nice to have, not a necessity. Though I will say, the car was significantly down on power as ambient got hotter and everything started heat soaking (even with distilled water AI). So if you're competing in time attack or in wheel to wheel, I imagine it'd be a necessary feature for peak performance. Otherwise, just accept the additional delta on the laptimes or limit the HPDE to cooler seasons I guess.
The one feature I did really want was the ability to tune for 50/50 meth AI. Of course, you can tune for it still on the PFC but because there is no integration with the AI kits (such as flow sensors, etc.) you now have a single point of failure. If the nozzle gets blocked, becomes loose, or the pump fails and you make a pull, could be the end right there.
That being said, doesn't seem like meth AI is necessary for a street driven car.
Even for a HPDE car, it's seems like a nice to have, not a necessity. Though I will say, the car was significantly down on power as ambient got hotter and everything started heat soaking (even with distilled water AI). So if you're competing in time attack or in wheel to wheel, I imagine it'd be a necessary feature for peak performance. Otherwise, just accept the additional delta on the laptimes or limit the HPDE to cooler seasons I guess.
#25
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Had a similar internal debate about trying to source Haltech or something newer for more "modern" technology. Can't remember all the research but it was pretty nebulous (to me personally), things like injector resolution and what not.
The one feature I did really want was the ability to tune for 50/50 meth AI. Of course, you can tune for it still on the PFC but because there is no integration with the AI kits (such as flow sensors, etc.) you now have a single point of failure. If the nozzle gets blocked, becomes loose, or the pump fails and you make a pull, could be the end right there.
That being said, doesn't seem like meth AI is necessary for a street driven car.
Even for a HPDE car, it's seems like a nice to have, not a necessity. Though I will say, the car was significantly down on power as ambient got hotter and everything started heat soaking (even with distilled water AI). So if you're competing in time attack or in wheel to wheel, I imagine it'd be a necessary feature for peak performance. Otherwise, just accept the additional delta on the laptimes or limit the HPDE to cooler seasons I guess.
The one feature I did really want was the ability to tune for 50/50 meth AI. Of course, you can tune for it still on the PFC but because there is no integration with the AI kits (such as flow sensors, etc.) you now have a single point of failure. If the nozzle gets blocked, becomes loose, or the pump fails and you make a pull, could be the end right there.
That being said, doesn't seem like meth AI is necessary for a street driven car.
Even for a HPDE car, it's seems like a nice to have, not a necessity. Though I will say, the car was significantly down on power as ambient got hotter and everything started heat soaking (even with distilled water AI). So if you're competing in time attack or in wheel to wheel, I imagine it'd be a necessary feature for peak performance. Otherwise, just accept the additional delta on the laptimes or limit the HPDE to cooler seasons I guess.
Also forgot to mention conversion to Evan's Coolant which I've successfully been running for 20+ years in most of my vehicles.