possible blown engine | bad idle | serious oil leak | hard starting
#1
possible blown engine | bad idle | serious oil leak | hard starting
Hi all,
If you don't want to read the story, I'll summarize everyting at the end. After a LOT of reading, dreaming, and saving, I've recently acquired a 1993 RX7 touring model; got it about two weeks ago. Here's a quick recap of what happened. I'll list mods/specs on the car afterwards:
Just cruising home on the freeway in 5th gear, about to exit. I'm approacing a corner, so I gear down to 4th and then to 3rd (light rev matching; revs were below 4k RPM or so). As I look at the tach after my shitf to 3rd, I notice that revs suddenly dropped to 0 RPM, and the CEL lit up for an instant and then went away. The damn engine shut off! Power steering and brakes aren't operating, and I hastily turn ''round the corner and pull over to see what's up.
I pop the hood and notice nothing out of the ordinary--no smoke, fumes, coolant smell, etc. I get under the car to look for dripping fluids and I see a few drops of oil (!) on the ground directly under the driver's side of the engine.
I tried to start the car again, and it took at least a dozen tries before the engine even cranked over (for some reason the car has an intermittent starting pattern... sometimes it would fire right up and others it take a few tries before the engine would even crank). It began to crank, many more times than it normally takes, and it started. I noticed that the idle quality is worse than before--it's lumpy and unsteady.
I very gently drove 1/2 mile back to my house. The car seemed just fine when throttle was applied. Power delivery was smooth and revs seemed to climb nicely. Idle still sucked, though.
Pulled the car into my garage without incident and went to go make a nice, stiff drink--in preparation for some serious disappointment. I came back and noticed little drops of oil beginning to accumulate under the car along the entire length of the engine, especially so near the rear (the part that mates with the transmission). F@ck!
I popped the hood and noticed that a nice layer of oil pretty much coated the driver's side of the rear rotor and intermediate housings. The oil covered most of the surface from near the oil filter down to the engine mounts... There's even a little oil on the tips of the spark plug wires on the rear rotor.
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Specs:
1993 touring, 5 speed, 103500 miles
rebuilt engine /w streetport (850 miles ago; I've only put about 80 miles on the car)
stock fuel system (injectors recently cleaned/balanced)
non-poor man's nonsequential turbos
downpipe, midpipe, Apexi dunk exhaust
Apexi intake
stock intercooler, cooling
OEM gauges (oil press, coolant temp); no boost gauge (yeah, I know)
stock ECU (yeah, I know)
full tank of 91 octane
Summary:
Bought the car from someone two weeks ago
Everything mechanical seemed to check out (fliuds OK, starts strong, idles pretty well, no smoke or other weirdness)
Oil pressure gauge would flicker between very low (near 0) and 60 psi (seems unreliable)
Coolant temps fine (according to the OEM water temp gauge)
Car ran great, starts right up (besides intermittent starting problem... sometimes it won't crank, but when it cranks, it starts fine)
Put about 80 miles of pretty conservative driving (5 minutes to warm up, 2 minutes to cool down, revs < 4k RPM, boosted, slightly, once in 1st gear by accident)
No detonation (no boosting)
Cruising on freeway (~70 mph in 5th)
engine dies; check engine light comes on before shutting off
hard to start (needs to crank at least 5 or so more times than normally)
crappy idle
power seems fine
serious oil leak from (somewhere) engine (especially bad near rear rotor housing)
oil covers driver's side of engine block, from oil filter down to bottom of engine, some oil on rear rotor spark plug wire cap
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What should I do to diagnose this? If the leak is this severe, then there must be some serious sealing issues in the housings (or cracks) .... I may as well just pull the damn engine in that case and go rebuild/reman. I am planning on doing a compression check (with a starndard piston tester) but I don't know if I can do it without another pair of hands and feet.. I don't understand why the damn thing would give out like this if it's still being broken in nicely, unless the rebuld was shoddy. What do you guys think? I absolutely love this car, but I'm so pissed this happened so soon. Thanks in advance.
~Mike
If you don't want to read the story, I'll summarize everyting at the end. After a LOT of reading, dreaming, and saving, I've recently acquired a 1993 RX7 touring model; got it about two weeks ago. Here's a quick recap of what happened. I'll list mods/specs on the car afterwards:
Just cruising home on the freeway in 5th gear, about to exit. I'm approacing a corner, so I gear down to 4th and then to 3rd (light rev matching; revs were below 4k RPM or so). As I look at the tach after my shitf to 3rd, I notice that revs suddenly dropped to 0 RPM, and the CEL lit up for an instant and then went away. The damn engine shut off! Power steering and brakes aren't operating, and I hastily turn ''round the corner and pull over to see what's up.
I pop the hood and notice nothing out of the ordinary--no smoke, fumes, coolant smell, etc. I get under the car to look for dripping fluids and I see a few drops of oil (!) on the ground directly under the driver's side of the engine.
I tried to start the car again, and it took at least a dozen tries before the engine even cranked over (for some reason the car has an intermittent starting pattern... sometimes it would fire right up and others it take a few tries before the engine would even crank). It began to crank, many more times than it normally takes, and it started. I noticed that the idle quality is worse than before--it's lumpy and unsteady.
I very gently drove 1/2 mile back to my house. The car seemed just fine when throttle was applied. Power delivery was smooth and revs seemed to climb nicely. Idle still sucked, though.
Pulled the car into my garage without incident and went to go make a nice, stiff drink--in preparation for some serious disappointment. I came back and noticed little drops of oil beginning to accumulate under the car along the entire length of the engine, especially so near the rear (the part that mates with the transmission). F@ck!
I popped the hood and noticed that a nice layer of oil pretty much coated the driver's side of the rear rotor and intermediate housings. The oil covered most of the surface from near the oil filter down to the engine mounts... There's even a little oil on the tips of the spark plug wires on the rear rotor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Specs:
1993 touring, 5 speed, 103500 miles
rebuilt engine /w streetport (850 miles ago; I've only put about 80 miles on the car)
stock fuel system (injectors recently cleaned/balanced)
non-poor man's nonsequential turbos
downpipe, midpipe, Apexi dunk exhaust
Apexi intake
stock intercooler, cooling
OEM gauges (oil press, coolant temp); no boost gauge (yeah, I know)
stock ECU (yeah, I know)
full tank of 91 octane
Summary:
Bought the car from someone two weeks ago
Everything mechanical seemed to check out (fliuds OK, starts strong, idles pretty well, no smoke or other weirdness)
Oil pressure gauge would flicker between very low (near 0) and 60 psi (seems unreliable)
Coolant temps fine (according to the OEM water temp gauge)
Car ran great, starts right up (besides intermittent starting problem... sometimes it won't crank, but when it cranks, it starts fine)
Put about 80 miles of pretty conservative driving (5 minutes to warm up, 2 minutes to cool down, revs < 4k RPM, boosted, slightly, once in 1st gear by accident)
No detonation (no boosting)
Cruising on freeway (~70 mph in 5th)
engine dies; check engine light comes on before shutting off
hard to start (needs to crank at least 5 or so more times than normally)
crappy idle
power seems fine
serious oil leak from (somewhere) engine (especially bad near rear rotor housing)
oil covers driver's side of engine block, from oil filter down to bottom of engine, some oil on rear rotor spark plug wire cap
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What should I do to diagnose this? If the leak is this severe, then there must be some serious sealing issues in the housings (or cracks) .... I may as well just pull the damn engine in that case and go rebuild/reman. I am planning on doing a compression check (with a starndard piston tester) but I don't know if I can do it without another pair of hands and feet.. I don't understand why the damn thing would give out like this if it's still being broken in nicely, unless the rebuld was shoddy. What do you guys think? I absolutely love this car, but I'm so pissed this happened so soon. Thanks in advance.
~Mike
Last edited by mdpalmer; 10-01-05 at 05:14 PM.
#2
Warming the planet.
Whoa there big fella, no need to talk about pullin the engine quite yet. First things first you need to pull the codes from you ECU first and see what's up there. There are many things on the drivers side of the motor that can leak oil, You'll need to clean up the oil mess and see if you can see the source of the leak.. Common leaks are things like the oil press sender, oil filler neck, pvc hose, oil pan to name a few.
#3
Warming the planet.
Checking codes http://www.fd3s.net/engine_codes.html
#4
Originally Posted by Gadd
Whoa there big fella, no need to talk about pullin the engine quite yet. First things first you need to pull the codes from you ECU first and see what's up there. There are many things on the drivers side of the motor that can leak oil, You'll need to clean up the oil mess and see if you can see the source of the leak.. Common leaks are things like the oil press sender, oil filler neck, pvc hose, oil pan to name a few.
#5
PURIST
iTrader: (43)
Map sensor line for your idle mabye. On the fire wall, there is a little box, on the driver side, make sure the line on the bottom of it is on snug. Oil could be leaking from a couple places, trace all places oil could leak, and put a rag by each of them, see which rag is covered the next couple hours.
#7
Rotary Enthusiast
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
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Stop freakin out and do what Gadd has said .. Check all the easy things FIRST! It could be something as simple as a loose oil filter..
Clean her up, maybe even go grab some brake clean and spray her down REALLY good.. Get a light in there and start checkin for leaks then get back to us with a location of the leak and the codes present.
Clean her up, maybe even go grab some brake clean and spray her down REALLY good.. Get a light in there and start checkin for leaks then get back to us with a location of the leak and the codes present.
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#8
Originally Posted by SAiamNE
Stop freakin out and do what Gadd has said .. Check all the easy things FIRST! It could be something as simple as a loose oil filter..
Clean her up, maybe even go grab some brake clean and spray her down REALLY good.. Get a light in there and start checkin for leaks then get back to us with a location of the leak and the codes present.
Clean her up, maybe even go grab some brake clean and spray her down REALLY good.. Get a light in there and start checkin for leaks then get back to us with a location of the leak and the codes present.
Tried to start the car again while the engine was warm and it struggled to crank... but it DID start. I did this four or five times with the same results.
The idle is still rough; I'm going to check the MAP sensor line and see if the idle is any different. Oil began to drip (VERY slowly; like one drop per 5 minutes) off of the undertray near the rear rotor/driver's side of the engine. Engine oil level is still good (no real noticable change since I first got the car).
I'm going to wipe the block clean and try to find where the leak is coming from too. Thanks guys, your advice is really appreciated!
#9
some pics and notes
So I got the front of the car up on jack stands, and checked out the area where i thought oil was leaking. Didn't seem so bad... I simple greened the entire area which was coated in oil and wiped it clean. I'll start the car back up tomorrow and try to find the leak. I check all MAP sensor connections, and they look fine. There are NO engine codes; I think that I was seeing things when my engine shut off during driving the other day.
I think that there's a fatal crack/flaw in the rear intermedidate housing, though.... what do you guys think?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdpalm...bum?.dir=/ee8f
~Mike
I think that there's a fatal crack/flaw in the rear intermedidate housing, though.... what do you guys think?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdpalm...bum?.dir=/ee8f
~Mike
#10
Warming the planet.
Originally Posted by mdpalmer
So I got the front of the car up on jack stands, and checked out the area where i thought oil was leaking. Didn't seem so bad... I simple greened the entire area which was coated in oil and wiped it clean. I'll start the car back up tomorrow and try to find the leak. I check all MAP sensor connections, and they look fine. There are NO engine codes; I think that I was seeing things when my engine shut off during driving the other day.
I think that there's a fatal crack/flaw in the rear intermedidate housing, though.... what do you guys think?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdpalm...bum?.dir=/ee8f
~Mike
I think that there's a fatal crack/flaw in the rear intermedidate housing, though.... what do you guys think?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mdpalm...bum?.dir=/ee8f
~Mike
Keep looking I'm sure you'll find the oil leak, worse case it's the rear main seal and/or the rear Rear stationary gear o-ring, both can be replaced with the engine in the car, but I'll bet it's something on the left side of the block, ie oil press sender, oil filter pedestal.. ect.
As for the poor idle, check to make sure the air pump is running at idle, replace the plugs and check or repace the plug wires, do a compression check. With the engine warmed up, idling and fans not running, jump the gnd and ten. The idle should stay about 800 to 700.
#11
FD title holder since 94
iTrader: (1)
I'm more disappointed in the fact your running the stock ECU with all the mods, street ported motor AND in non seq mod. No way in hell that thing knew what was going on. Surprised it lasted that long or ran smoothly to begin with. With a street port engine, it pulls less vacuum at idle to begin with, so you'll need to bump up the idle revs to hlep it idle decent. Jeez, I'm still at a loss about the car's setup to begin with, who did you buy it from that would run it that way?
Tim
Tim
#12
Originally Posted by Tim Benton
I'm more disappointed in the fact your running the stock ECU with all the mods, street ported motor AND in non seq mod. No way in hell that thing knew what was going on. Surprised it lasted that long or ran smoothly to begin with. With a street port engine, it pulls less vacuum at idle to begin with, so you'll need to bump up the idle revs to hlep it idle decent. Jeez, I'm still at a loss about the car's setup to begin with, who did you buy it from that would run it that way?
Tim
Tim
You're absolutey right about hte idle revs being higher. The car idled somewhere between 1k-1.5k RPM (depending on what mood it was in).
The seller had another person do all of the work on the car (the other guy is also an FD owner), including the engine rebuild and nonsequential install. I don't want to mention the seller's name because he's working with me to get this mess straight. Thanks for you input.
#13
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (8)
Look for the oil leak to come from the oil filter pedestal or the oil pressure sending unit. I doubt you have cracked a rear iron with your mods.
Youll need a mazda rotary compression tester to evaluate the engine's health, in situations like yours where the engine still runs decent yet compression on one face or more is in question, a piston tester won't usually cut it, the mazda tester can pick out small defects. Generally rotaries blow and there is little question, and a piston tester can verify this, but on rare occasions only one seal may not be functioning properly and the piston tester will usually not show you this like the mazda tester will.
Youll need a mazda rotary compression tester to evaluate the engine's health, in situations like yours where the engine still runs decent yet compression on one face or more is in question, a piston tester won't usually cut it, the mazda tester can pick out small defects. Generally rotaries blow and there is little question, and a piston tester can verify this, but on rare occasions only one seal may not be functioning properly and the piston tester will usually not show you this like the mazda tester will.
#15
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
Look for the oil leak to come from the oil filter pedestal or the oil pressure sending unit. I doubt you have cracked a rear iron with your mods.
Youll need a mazda rotary compression tester to evaluate the engine's health, in situations like yours where the engine still runs decent yet compression on one face or more is in question, a piston tester won't usually cut it, the mazda tester can pick out small defects. Generally rotaries blow and there is little question, and a piston tester can verify this, but on rare occasions only one seal may not be functioning properly and the piston tester will usually not show you this like the mazda tester will.
Youll need a mazda rotary compression tester to evaluate the engine's health, in situations like yours where the engine still runs decent yet compression on one face or more is in question, a piston tester won't usually cut it, the mazda tester can pick out small defects. Generally rotaries blow and there is little question, and a piston tester can verify this, but on rare occasions only one seal may not be functioning properly and the piston tester will usually not show you this like the mazda tester will.
#16
Originally Posted by joeyz87
Sounds like the guy sealed up the engine with elmers glue and then sold it you. Either way you wil need to fix/replace engine.
#18
compression test results | notes on oil leak
Well, in an effort to get to the bottom of this oil leak, I got under the car once again and re-wiped the driver's side of the engine clean. I decided to change the spark plugs just to see if that would help at all.
Upon fitting my spark plug socket to the trailing plug on the rear rotor and cranking the sucker loose, I notice ZERO resistance. WTF! I take the socket off and notice that the god damn spark plug is FINGER TIGHT. I back the thing out and change the other plugs. I noticed that the other plugs were definitley not torqued anywhere near spec (13 lb-ft). On that finger tight plug I did notice some oil on the threads.
Oh yeah, with the new plugs there's no oil leak. Jeez.
What's more, the plugs on the front rotor were reversed (i.e. leading plug in trailing hole, and trailing plug in leading hole). The plugs didn't look abnormally worn (the electrodes were slightly darkened, but that's it). I also installed a boost gauge.
The car starts right up when cold and idle sits about about 1100 RPM with vacuum of about 12 inHg. After warming the car up, idle is about 1400-1500 @ 16-18 inHg. There's no noticable difference in idle quality as compared to before my incident a few days ago. Car runs great otherwise!!!
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Had a compression test done today. Here are the results. I forgot to ask the tech which rotor was #1 and #2 (I'm assuming front/back, respectively)... The results are in kgf/cm^2, while the numbers in () are in psi:
rotor #1: 4.9, 4.2, 7.8 (70, 60, 111)
rotor #2: 7.2, 7.0, 7.2 (103, 100, 103)
EDIT: I'm a few hundred feet above sea level and cranking speed was about 250-400 RPM, according to the tech
What do you guys make out of this. I know that the rotor2 is barely acceptable (@ 100 psi) while rotor1 has issues (< 100 psi, AND max differential of 41 psi) The tech says "it's a blown apex seal in rotor1". He didn't give me a reason, other than that other rotaries that had "similar numbers" had "blown apex seals". I guess that would make sense, since two rotor faces have lower compression.... if one of the apex seals went, it would affect two adjacent rotor faces' compression capability.
What do you guys think about the compression results, and what do you think I should do with this motor? If an apex seal is bad, if it comes apart it may get sucked through the turbos and ruin them too.... among other things. I'll start searching on this... TIA!
~Mike
Upon fitting my spark plug socket to the trailing plug on the rear rotor and cranking the sucker loose, I notice ZERO resistance. WTF! I take the socket off and notice that the god damn spark plug is FINGER TIGHT. I back the thing out and change the other plugs. I noticed that the other plugs were definitley not torqued anywhere near spec (13 lb-ft). On that finger tight plug I did notice some oil on the threads.
Oh yeah, with the new plugs there's no oil leak. Jeez.
What's more, the plugs on the front rotor were reversed (i.e. leading plug in trailing hole, and trailing plug in leading hole). The plugs didn't look abnormally worn (the electrodes were slightly darkened, but that's it). I also installed a boost gauge.
The car starts right up when cold and idle sits about about 1100 RPM with vacuum of about 12 inHg. After warming the car up, idle is about 1400-1500 @ 16-18 inHg. There's no noticable difference in idle quality as compared to before my incident a few days ago. Car runs great otherwise!!!
------------------------------------------
Had a compression test done today. Here are the results. I forgot to ask the tech which rotor was #1 and #2 (I'm assuming front/back, respectively)... The results are in kgf/cm^2, while the numbers in () are in psi:
rotor #1: 4.9, 4.2, 7.8 (70, 60, 111)
rotor #2: 7.2, 7.0, 7.2 (103, 100, 103)
EDIT: I'm a few hundred feet above sea level and cranking speed was about 250-400 RPM, according to the tech
What do you guys make out of this. I know that the rotor2 is barely acceptable (@ 100 psi) while rotor1 has issues (< 100 psi, AND max differential of 41 psi) The tech says "it's a blown apex seal in rotor1". He didn't give me a reason, other than that other rotaries that had "similar numbers" had "blown apex seals". I guess that would make sense, since two rotor faces have lower compression.... if one of the apex seals went, it would affect two adjacent rotor faces' compression capability.
What do you guys think about the compression results, and what do you think I should do with this motor? If an apex seal is bad, if it comes apart it may get sucked through the turbos and ruin them too.... among other things. I'll start searching on this... TIA!
~Mike
Last edited by mdpalmer; 10-05-05 at 09:21 PM.
#20
uh, another question
Originally Posted by Tim Benton
rotor 1 - toast, 2 is okay.
Get Kevin Landers (rotaryresurrection posting above) to rebuild it. cheaper than a reman and better quality in my mind.
Tim
Get Kevin Landers (rotaryresurrection posting above) to rebuild it. cheaper than a reman and better quality in my mind.
Tim
I just got an email from the guy who built the engine, and he tells me that he used NEW Mazda OEM apex seals. Actually, here's a list of parts he used on the engine rebuild:
--------------------------
New Apex seals (stock Mazda seals)
conner Seal spring
viton oil control Oring
new oil pump chain
new oil cooler lines
---------------------------
Thanks again,
~Mike
#21
FD title holder since 94
iTrader: (1)
I doubt it will get any better on rotor 1 but I defer to someone with more experience in actual engine building. Hopefully Kevin or someone else will chime in and see what they say. When my first engine went back in 98, the rear rotor had 0.0 on 2 faces but like most will say, over 1.5K the car ran okay, just idled like crap. At the time I had the PFS PMC so I just adjusted the idle higher. I ran the car like that for about 6 months, maybe another 750 miles and my turbos were fine, no damage. Others have had the seal come out and fly into the blades, ruining them so I'd err on the caution side.
Tim
Tim
#22
Rotor Head Extreme
iTrader: (8)
If you really didn't get on it while you were breaking it in, even with those mods I see no reason the engine should be blown. It's a known fact that with those mods that the stock ecu will still supply enough fuel to the engine if you don't exceed 10psi. It seems that you have some problems with the side and corner seals possibly sticking in the rotor grooves. It's very possible this has happened since your spark plugs were not torqued and leaking the compressed fuel air mixture. This compression loss will cause the air/fuel mixture to not completely combust leaving carbon deposits behind. Granny driving the car (which you did while breaking in the engine) and low compression will accelerate any carbon build-up. Search these forum for any means of decarbonizing a rotary. Try these methods first before considering rebuilding.
#23
Banzai Racing
Guidlines for diagnosing engine internals based off compression readings. Obviously these are not set in stone.
3 even bounces of 85 PSI or above is GOOD. Readings above 110 PSI is GREAT!
3 even bounces of less than 85 PSI: indicates that motor is tired, and indicates engine should be rebuilt before causing damage to rotors or rotor housings.
2 high and 1 low: indicates problem with side seal (stuck, cracked, broken, etc.)
1 high and 2 low: indicates problem with apex seal (stuck, cracked, broken, etc.)
NO bounces: either incorrectly installed guage or destroyed rotor and housing.
What we have noticed is that when the front rotor has uneven/no compression that 9 out of 10 times the pulsation damper is leaking fuel, causing fuel starvation to the front rotor.
You can email us at sales@banzairacing.net for a rebuild quote.
3 even bounces of 85 PSI or above is GOOD. Readings above 110 PSI is GREAT!
3 even bounces of less than 85 PSI: indicates that motor is tired, and indicates engine should be rebuilt before causing damage to rotors or rotor housings.
2 high and 1 low: indicates problem with side seal (stuck, cracked, broken, etc.)
1 high and 2 low: indicates problem with apex seal (stuck, cracked, broken, etc.)
NO bounces: either incorrectly installed guage or destroyed rotor and housing.
What we have noticed is that when the front rotor has uneven/no compression that 9 out of 10 times the pulsation damper is leaking fuel, causing fuel starvation to the front rotor.
You can email us at sales@banzairacing.net for a rebuild quote.
#24
Originally Posted by t-von
If you really didn't get on it while you were breaking it in, even with those mods I see no reason the engine should be blown. It's a known fact that with those mods that the stock ecu will still supply enough fuel to the engine if you don't exceed 10psi. It seems that you have some problems with the side and corner seals possibly sticking in the rotor grooves. It's very possible this has happened since your spark plugs were not torqued and leaking the compressed fuel air mixture. This compression loss will cause the air/fuel mixture to not completely combust leaving carbon deposits behind. Granny driving the car (which you did while breaking in the engine) and low compression will accelerate any carbon build-up. Search these forum for any means of decarbonizing a rotary. Try these methods first before considering rebuilding.
About the carbon build up: can it really be a problem on a freshly rebuilt motor with new seals? I'm wondering if just one of the seals just isn't cooperating... and that carbon deposits wouln't be an issue just because of the age/usage of the rebuild... I did check out some of the threads on water injection/ATF injection though
Last edited by mdpalmer; 10-07-05 at 10:39 PM.
#25
Lives on the Forum
iTrader: (8)
With this mileage I think the engine will have to come apart, you have a seal problem. I doubt carbon buildup is a real factor, and I doubt it is simply "a seal not cooperating" or one not yet broken in. Even a dry engine on the stand, never run, will usually produce 70-90psi compression...you should never see lower than 65-70psi on a fresh, non-started rebuild, and never lower than 85psi on one that's been run for more than half an hour.
You now have 2 "professional" votes for the engine coming apart, and a lot of conjecture by those "not in the know", so to speak. Believe whoever you choose to.
You now have 2 "professional" votes for the engine coming apart, and a lot of conjecture by those "not in the know", so to speak. Believe whoever you choose to.