Hey everyone. I want to start off by saying that I’m no noob when it comes to rotaries. I lived in Japan for 3 years and I drove an Infini FC, as well as 2 different FD’s. I’ve owned various turbo and non turbo fc’s and 2 fd’s over the past 10 years and I have built and ported my own motors. I recently sold off all of my 3 rotor parts for a new direction in my project widebody fc.

Anyhow, I did some side work for an acquaintance of mine on an FD. He had an engine that was eating oil, so he had purchased a rebuilt engine from a well known rotary specific shop here in the US. I pulled his running engine out of his FD, and transferred all of the manifolds, omp, turbines, flywheel, etc onto the rebuilt short block. I sealed up the oil pan, installed the flywheel and poured a little bit of oil into the open spark plug holes. After I torqued the flywheel nut down, I spun the motor by hand. It was a bit tight, but since the motor has 3mm apex seals I didn’t think much of it. Anyway, I installed the motor and it cranked right up and had good oil pressure. I took it for a spin around the block to ensure that everything was working like it should and I called the owner to tell him the car was ready.

After a few months, he called me and said there was an oil leak. I asked him if he could see where it was coming from and he said it was dripping down the bottom of the motor. I told him I’ll take a look at it. I found oil on the back of the engine and oil dripping from the rear area of the motor, but the oil pan was dry. I told him to keep an eye on it and let me know. He rarely drove the car so it was a few months and no more than 1900 miles or so he said its leaking oil as fast as he can put it in. I told him it could be the rear main seal or the rear stationary gear O ring. I said bring it back and I’ll do the labor fro free, just pay for the new rear main seal. I pull the rear main out and didn’t see any damage but changed it anyway. I didn’t look at the stationary gear O ring or anything like that.

He drives it home and reports back that it’s still leaking as before. So, I figured now it must be the “O” ring so I tell him to bring it back again and I’ll change that out. So, I remove the flywheel and find some heavy damage to the rear of the stationary gear. Evidently what happened was the flywheel was contacting the rear of the stationary gear and basically melted the bearing. The oil was pushing past the bearing, past the flywheel seal and out of the motor. Suspecting a mistake in the build of the engine, I sent the motor back to the builder which was slightly out of the TIME warranty period but not the MILES warranty period.

The motor at this point doesn’t even have 5,000 miles on it. The shop calls me up and makes various accusations about the treatment or the install of the motor and then makes a ridiculous claim. I’m not making this up. He claims that I “installed the flywheel too deep.” I politely inform him that the E-shaft taper sets the flywheel depth, and not the torque of the nut or anything else. He immediately gets defensive asking me if I’m calling him a liar and then informs me of his many years of engine building experience. I tell him I’m not calling him a liar, I’m merely saying that the issue is not a flywheel installation issue, but rather a possible end play issue or something along those lines. He then says that this damage is not covered on their warranty and it wouldn’t matter anyway because there is “obviously” a problem with the install, and not with the build.

So, let me preface this by saying that I have contacted other people in the know, including a rotary shop here in Phoenix and Mazdatrix as well. They both confirmed what I was thinking; that this is a build problem and not an install problem. The stock flywheel was taken from the running motor and installed onto the rebuilt motor, and now this has happened. I just want some feedback from other people. Am I crazy here? Has anyone ever heard of this happening before? Shouldn’t this be covered under the warranty of the builder? I have tried to get him to take a look at it and he won’t even do that. He says the owner will have to pay fro any work performed on the motor from here on out. I won’t say what shop it was because I still want to be able for them to make this right. Please respond with comments!

 

Sounds like there wasn't enough endplay on the rotating assembly.

 

yup. that was my initial thought, so i called Mazdatrix and spoke with them to get their opinion and he said the same thing: endplay. Thanks goodfella

 

no one else has any input?

 

well i'm definitely not a pro but I am a tech for mercedes benz and like a lot of motorheads proceed to work on everything I own for this exact reason, NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE TO TRUST WHEN IT COMES TO REPAIR, and that goes for anything. I own an fd3s and have repalced my coolant seals so I am knowledgable on the subject. I am not sure a flywheel installation on any engine/trans combo would do that, unless there was a hydraulic press involved in MASHING the flywheel on, and I would agree with GOODFELLA and would take his word over most, I'm still new on the forum but whatever I read of his is usually true and correct.

 

You are absoluetly right. The flywheel is not a typical bolt onto the end of the crankshaft type as in most engines. It fits into a tapered area on the back of the E shaft, therefore the depth of the flywheel is directly related to the position of the e shaft relative to the engine.

 

Side work always bites ya in the butt doesn't it, but we all still do it. Sorry about your troubles. I also have a massive oil leak in that area but I think it will be fixed now that I tefloned the threads on the oil pressure sending unit and the other deal that screws in right next to it LOL.

 

Well, the endplay was beyond maxed out. This caused the flywheel to contact the rear stationary gear and melt the bearing. The shop, which is located in the pacific northwest, is a shady operation in my opinion. The shop owner lied to me over the phone, and the engine builder is rude and condescending. The shop tried to tell me that this was caused by the "flywheel being installed too tight" I still don't understand why they wouldn't just do the right thing and honor their warranty. Just as a precaution to others: This is not a trustworthy shop in my opinion. Their warranty is garbage, just like their product. I will NEVER do ANY business with them in the future and I will encourage everyone I know in the rotary community to do the same. Lastly, this is not the first time one of their motors have failed. Another customer set up a site dedicated to his run in with this shop, and the method in which they handled his problem was the same as mine: rude phone calls and no warranty was ever honored. BUYER BEWARE.

 

so what is the shop and what is that web site your are talking about.

 

The update doesn't help without a name!!

 

That is the problem with most non-local rotary places selling engines and engine rebuilds. As soon as there is a problem, it turns into a finger pointing game and they don't give a ****.

That is why I always so to go local on rebuilds if that is an option.

 

The answers are in this site: http://128.135.156.7/

 

well ill be honest i almost called shenanigans on this but then i got to looking a little more. the FSM and 13bre DIY both state you must put the flywheel on before you can check endplay but then i looked even further into it and its only installed to be able to torque down the front e-shaft bolt. so then looking at the differences in the shims from mazda there is only a max difference between all of them of less that 1/10th MM. so the only explanations i can come up with for this were something was missing (thrust washer,bearing,spacer) or the rear bearing was not seated all the way into the rear gear.

so im curious what was the total endplay? and who did the teardown was there anything missing?

yes i know this thread is a little old but it has been updated lately..

z

 

I removed the front cover, after the owner of the business told me that HE checked the endplay HIMSELF. This was impossible because when I got the motor back, the front cover was just as dirty as it was, and their own warranty sticker was still attached to the front E shaft bolt. The rear bearing was all the way installed into the stat gear. I haven't put a mic on it yet, but there is ZERO movement on the eshaft. No in or out movement. The FD spacers have a range of .050mm. It's impossible to install the flywheel "too far" as it's a press fit into the taper. The only reasonable explanation is the endplay. This is a build problem and the shop is responsible for it. They treated me EXACTLY the same as they treated the guy on the website, so this isn't the first time this has happened. Another funny thing: I never mentioned it before because I didn't think it was important. When I called the owner of the shop and told him the engine was leaking from the rear, he told me "yea, I've got 3 or 4 in here with the same problem." So I thought, great! They must have had a bad run or something and they will fix this no problem. BOY was I wrong. Again, I encourage everyone to avoid this shop, and get the word out that they DO NOT stand behind their work, and they will leave you high and dry if you have a problem.

 

well you dont need to remove the front cover to check endplay. that being said have you disassembled the engine yet? to see if everything was there where its supposed to be? because that would explain why it may have checked right to them with the flywheel off but when the flywheel is on its hitting because the e-shaft would be drawn further forward than where it was supposed to be with all the parts.

z