When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Not picking on you directly at all, but this is my issue with most swaps. Many swap owners will nutswing the LS as if it is the be-all and end-all of reliability. I can look on my Facebook newsfeed on any given day and see my (stock to modified) LS friends having a plethora of issues in comparison to my rotary friends. I am in no way knocking the LS, but rather highlighting the irony in the swap with only the intention of reliability. For me, if I wanted the huge gains of an LS, I would not start with an RX7. I would most definitely buy the Corvette since the whole package is already complete. You WILL spend as much on Clean FD+Swap as you will spend on a Corvette. A budget swapped FD is a ruined car.
Please... tell me how much more reliable the rotary is than the LS.
Nothing is bulletproof, but think %'s for a minute. Just because you see people blowing LS engines does not make them equally unreliable as 13Bs. If you really believe that or anything based on your Facebook newsfeed... well...
As for your budget argument, I think you can get a clean FD to compete with a ZR1 for about $30K. A ZR1 costs $120K.
I will agree that budget anything isn't going to get much love from me.
A v8-swapoped FD is both a great sports car and a terrible waste. Its still a sad waste of collectible history.
Just so I'm clear here. Are you grouping 20B swapped cars into the same group based on the fact that it can not be put back into its original stock form? Or are 20B, or 26B for that matter, swapped cars not a waste?
I stand by my points and just in case anyone is curious, I started out with a bottom-of-the-barrel roller that already had a blank where the rotary engine used to be. I consider my swap a rescue / restoration.
Lane
Agreed, I consider my swap a restoration as well, literally every mechanical part on the car is new and much of the interior/exterior as well. I find it very funny when rotary guys locally tell me they don't like the swap, yet my car is in every way in better condition.
Here's a different question – will we be contemplating Renesis (13B-MSP) swaps when the supply of FD housings dries up, or will somebody fabricate them before that happens?
Mattgold... Don't know why I'm wading in here, as I really don't give a tinker's damn about it. That said, I am not sure whether v8 swapped cars are more or less reliable on a percentage basis. I don't know where anyone could get any data that would answer that question. So, its all speculation. G
Yeah... I know. I bit my tongue and was really contemplating not responding. But he wasn't talking about swaps, he was talking about the LS vs Rotary:
"I can look on my Facebook newsfeed on any given day and see my (stock to modified) LS friends having a plethora of issues in comparison to my rotary friends."
So more of his LS friends are having issues with their cars then rotary friends. Ok. On numbers alone, I'll bite. But based on percentages? Come on. No one here seriously thinks the 13B is more reliable then a LS, do they? Stock vs Stock. Modified vs Modified. Built vs Built.
The Gen III/IV/V LS has been in production since 1997. That's almost a 20 year run and has been in dozens of vehicles, from Corvettes to CTS's to Trucks. I don't know production numbers, but they have to be in the millions.
To point to a Facebook newsfeed and say "I see 'em blow up - must be unreliable" is just daft. The LS is far more reliable then the 13B. That's unquestionable.
Now does it "belong" in an FD? That's up for discussion. But no one on here is holding up their FD as a testament to reliability.
The 20b has been running for around 4 months, cost 20K+, and rips hard. We can confidently say that this swap likely adds value to the car. However, its listed on local craigslist, and despite all the talk, there's yet to be any offers near replacement cost.
Now, the car to the left, an LS1 swapped FD w/ hinson kit, 99 spec. I used to bash on the v8 swaps. That is until I saw this particular swapped car. Very meticulous, everything is clean. Car starts first try, never runs hot, always performs flawlessly. Yes, it doesn't have the feel, the exhaust note, or the extreme power, but there's something damn great about the SIMPLE FACT that the engine only costs a little $. If you break it, its no big deal! Parts are down the street at the dealership! When we go out to car meets etc, its always a stressor figuring out the route, wondering If the oil pan will be ripped off the 20b on a speed bump, if it will get stuck in bumper/bumper traffic and run on the warm side, etc etc. The v8, you start that thing up and go batshit crazy with NEVER A WORRY!
I'm always looking at the oil pressure, oil temps, water temps, EWP, RPM's, AFR, BLAH BLAH BLAH....F*CK. Its undeniable, the rotary is $, and so we watch it like a hawk. No getting around the fact that a clean v8 will always bring peace of mind.
If you break the 20b, you sell your house!
And finally, to reply to the OP original question. There are around 8-10 FD's that I know of in the area/state, these 2, and maybe 1 other are swapped. So, 30 percent.
Matt... I understand. I don't know a lot of guys personally who have swapped v8's. I do know a few. Any problems guys have with the swap as far as reliability goes is likely due to buying an LS that is crappy or poorly done installation. For many it was seen as a cheap way to get more power with reliability, when their rotary crapped out. Cheap can often mean badly done and that can screw up any motor. Its why so many guys whose 13b's crap out and who get a rebuild or reman installed by some guy working out of his garage end up with the "new" motor crapping out within break-in miles.
G
I'm with you 100%.
I also think Monsterbox brings up two VERY succinct points (and someone else brought one up earlier).
1) Piece of mind *is* worth a lot.
2) Part availability and aftermarket support for the LS is fantastic.
Here's my chicken little on the 13B...
One day... we will run our of housings. Yes, you can recondition them. But the fact remains, it's very possible housing will be worth their weight in gold. When that day comes, will people continue to rebuild? Will a new product come to market? Will we retro fit newer housings? I'm interested in this answer.
If there is a market of course someone will step in and produce the housings.
On the V8 swaps, I agree a NA LS engine is more reliable than a turbo 13B. Is a stock internal LS turbo more reliable than a 13B turbo also? Probably and it makes a lot more power because it's a larger displacement engine even if you say the 13B isnt 1.3L that it's really 3.9L. But I think people freak out way too much about a rotary not being reliable and obsessing over gauges etc. If you're trying to make 450-500rwhp on pump gas or a million hp on a drag car with an aggressive tune you have a high chance of detonation and blowing the motor. Same way if you push the limits of the LS. If you want higher HP limits you put in a 20b or get a Supra, GTR, Porshe, Vette or Viper etc. If you are running a conservative boost level and tune, you have nothing to worry about. Once the precat is out, an aluminum radiator and ast are in and you have your boost control set it's a normal car...if you dont have a major freak overboost you're going to be able to beat on it and have a reliable consistent setup for many years.
As I've said, V8 swaps seem silly to do to such a rare car, like a Supra would be with a Ford 5.0 engine in it, yes I know supra engines are more reliable but this is how the swap seems to me.
Let me give you another example, it would be like using a DeLorean instead of a Fiero to do a fake Ferrri kit car, that would be a shame.
Yes the performance is insane as it would be with a LS engine in nearly every other sports car. There are tons of other cars with LS or V8 engines that can be had instead of tearing apart a unique vehicle and making it into a kit car. I guess they could be restored back to rotary but whos going to buy a v8 converted FD for 25k and then spent an additional 10k returning it to rotary, maybe one day it'll happen.
It's not that the LS doesn't offer performance, reliability and isn't incredibly fast in the FD, it's that it isnt a match for the car, at all, it's confusing and odd. Someone above tried to insinuate that a 20b swap was just the same as doing a v8 swap, please if you can't see the difference...And it's not that some of the builds are done in bad taste, a lot are great, it's just that a Chevrolet V8 isn't a match and swaps are becoming way too prevalant. If there were only a few v8 swaps out there it would be in fact unique and neat, but it's become the thing to do the way it was to install reliability mods on a FD back in the day. The fact is the price point is there, and the rollers are cheap and so is the engine, and people can't help themselves. If there were more FDs around or if they didn't have a rare rotary platform maybe it would sit well or better with everyone. Obviosly the right thing to do is for everyone to do what they want with their own car, but at least understand this is where a rotary/rx-7 purist thoughts lie and why it is met with resistance.
I'm not a fan of taking an FD with 25,000 miles and doing much of anything to it. I wouldn't feel great about a 3 rotor swap, I would feel great about a V8 swap, I wouldn't even feel great about a single turbo, intercooler, etc.
However, I'd much rather see an FD *on the road* with a swapped V8 as opposed to one wasting away in someone's garage waiting for... something.
I agree, I'd rather see any car run with any engine than sit for years. And definitely agree, any chassis w/ 50k or less miles should be left untouched if the goal is preserving resell.
Simply put however, the American v8 is boring. Look around your local Wal-Mart parking lot and you'll find at least 10 Lsx powered vehicles. But you can't argue with popularity of parts. Throw on headers and cam and you're making more power than most boosted cars.
If you want an FD daily driver, a drift car that you can crash with low risk, or cross-country car, then consider a v8 swap.
If you want rarity, want the feel of a fighter jet, and an exhaust note that puts a smile on your face, build a rotary. But just realize costs are higher / wait is longer if you make a mistake.
At the end of the day, both engines are just as reliable if done correctly. However, it does make stomach sink a little knowing you're rolling around on a $10,000 block lol
Personally I love the v8, but its saved for a POS 240sx sleeper etc.
Exactly now turbo that LS2 for those 30k miles and 15 track days and you would have already totally blown the motor. I think the rear of a C5 looks great...
I'm complaining and bitching about it because I don't believe the V8 swap to be a good fix or a good match. Not only does it bastardize the car but it makes it handle worse, isnt smooth and loses its driving feel. I cant control what everyone does, but it seems like the easy way out and is insulting to mazda and the RX-7. The V8 fix does not make it a perfect car nor is it a perfect fix. Perhaps if it was a 1JZ or more matched swap I could understand (lightweight, highreving, turbo, of the same era). At some point the collectibility of the car in tact will convince people to keep them with a rotary drivetrain. Only wealthy people will be able to lose the value by gutting the car and tossing in a v8 from a camaro, and those people will chose to drive porsches and ferrari and have never heard of a RX-7.
Still want to know how many V8s and other swaps there are out there...that's the point of the thread as well as poking fun along the way at folks that have a "different" approach to cars.
Come on man, the swap car you owned and drove had an old hinson kit and wasnt a well sorted car.
Why I didn't "just get a 'vette...": Because an LS FD is 250 to 450 lb. lighter-weight than a C5 or C6. Because an FD with an LS with minor mods outperforms ZR1s for a small fraction of the price. Also, C5 rear looks misshapen and bloated, interior looks pretty uninspired/uninspiring. C6 exterior looks fine, interior still bleh...
Anyway, after ~30k street miles and 15 or so track days, compression test revealed that one of my stock LS2 pistons had developed a couple of cracks in the ring lands. Doh, so much for being perfectly reliable :O
So now a 6.8 liter with forged crank and Wiseco pistons is installed, along with a slightly bigger cam. Should make ~600hp, probably good for 190mph in the standing mile.
I came from the rotary world and prefer a v8 powered FD. It's all personal preference. There's nothing wrong with either power plant.
I owned a c5 z06 for a few years in addition to my FD. I love the way they look, but the gm chassis leaves much to be desired. There's just something about an FD that I haven't been able to find in another chassis.
Last edited by 1point3liter; 09-01-15 at 11:34 PM.
Let's say you daily drive your RX-7 and you could spend 10-15k to make it reliable.
It would start every time, get good gas mileage (22+ MPG), no premixing, parts are easily to get, have a great power band and be smog legal. Would you do it?
These are some of the things why a V8 is more practical than the rotary.
If you're building a race car where none of the stuff matters to you, keep the rotary! It would be more fun at the track.
My first car was a rotary and I was die hard rotary fan for the longest time. Once I sat in on a stock V8 RX-7, it changed everything.
If you wanted more power out of the rotary, you would probably rebuild the rotary, port the engine, upgrade the seals/springs, dowel, remove the emission equipment, do a single turbo conversion, upgrade the intercooler, standalone ECU, upgraded fuel pump, fuel injectors, maybe run E85, fly a tuner out to tune the car, and make maybe 450-500hp. How much money would that cost? I would say about 10-15k.
The V8 just makes more sense. Don't get me wrong, I seen my fair share of hack job V8 swaps and even then I go, what a waste.
Take a look at Eric's LS3 FD. It's a prime example of a great sorted car.
Come on man, the swap car you owned and drove had an old hinson kit and wasnt a well sorted car.
Been a while what's up man!
Yeah I imagined the car I owned wasn't set up right by the last owner. You know, just hearing that v8 exhaust note while I was driving was enough to throw me off before anything else though.
Since your car has been that way so long it is officially grandfathered in, like a homestead.
Do you have one or two now? I heard you got that yellow CYM a while back from Deno was it?
Another good question is how prevalent swaps are in other countries with large amounts of FDs.
I doubt many v8 swaps are being done in japan but I can imagine they have hundreds of 1jz and 2jz swaps there, which kind of shows the same rationale. Would be interesting to see what percentage of cars over there are being swapped to non rotary and what those swaps are.
Anyone know how many FDs were produced in japan and total in the world?
Having owned a twin turbo FD as well as a single turbo FD and lastly an LS3 swap FD I can tell you that the LS3 car was much less refined but an incredible amount of power upgrade for a 2800lb chassis.
I daily drove my twin turbo car for 2 years before doing a single turbo. Even with the twins the car was fun to drive but there are a ton of things that go wrong with the system. From cracked Y pipes to other boost issues to leaks etc.. The car was forever a work in progress.
I think the most laughable argument was speaking in terms of numbers matching cars...
These motors fail so many way it's hard to keep count. But age alone will get to the water seals.
And for most people, they buy a performance car that they actually like to enjoy driving in the occasional track day, autoX or other event.
These cars are best left at stock boost levels for reliability for the most common failure point. Apex seals.
I've seen the best built motors blow up with regularity by no fault of the builder!
It's always the same story, it was a fuel problem or a manifold design issue or a tuning debacle, bad tank of gas... Wastegate failure etc.
The list of reasons these things fail is long. The result is always the same R&R the motor.
For those who want more than 250hp the fact is you should plan on having some spare motors around or become a master mechanic. I've seen rotary builds that far exceed LS swap builds in $$ and provide a lot less reliability.
Both set ups have quirks but I can say I never had an issue with the LS3 motor. The T-56 is not my favorite transmission but unfortunately it's the most common for these swaps. It's a drawback. Having owned both car setups I missed the refinement of a rotary car but loved the performance of the LS3 swap.
You don't even tax that Piston motor. At stock levels it makes amazing power and the TORQUE!
For everyone who always asks Why not just buy a Vette?
Because it's a completely different car and experience. It's only asked by folks who have never driven one in anger.
My friend who owns a C6Z06
Drove my LS3 swap and he said he liked it better than his Z06. He has also owned rotarys.
He said he would have bought my car off me if he had the money. He said there was nothing that comes close to it. He calls it a "bonkers" car.
Would I own another rotary FD? Sure but at stock boost levels. It's the car I fell in love with but realized it wasn't going to provide the power I lusted after reliably.
Also Corvettes are everywhere and I like driving a more unique car. I also prefer the looks of the FD over most any other car. The love of the car for me was skin deep. I couldn't care less what's powering it as long as it's fun and reliable.
Most of the people that tell you the rotary can be reliable have already replaced engines themselves so I don't know why they keep trying to fool themselves. I've owned probably 30 cars or more and other than the RX-7 I've never had an engine failure in any of them. I've even overheated some of those cars...
The problem is not the rotary design vs piston design.
The problem is Mazda's 1993 engineering.
Cheap plastics, overcomplicated solenoid system, undersized wastegate, weak diaphragm FPD, undersized clutch, plastic end tanks on radiator, complicated emissions, junk wiring to fuel pump, 221f fan activation, a joke for an intercooler, the list continues...
Lets face it. Everything on the FD chassis is cheap garbage.
THE KEY TO A BULLETPROOF FD
Throw everything away except the Chassis and Engine and start over
A good V8 swap is going to replace the radiator, transmission, clutch, ignition, fuel system, etc etc
A typical rotary build is NOT. Unless you choose too.
Because we are not pushed/required to replace all of Mazda's shoddy work, you have many cars running around on the above mentioned cheap-o-systems, ticking time bombs waiting to explode. I can't tell you how many times I've come close to blowing the rotary up because of NON-rotary related issues. For example, fuel pump wiring in bulk-head connector disintegrated, on the interstate, cruising. Now if the car was in boost.....BOOM.
You can ABSOLUTELY have a bullet-proof, reliable 500RWHP Single Turbo FD, if built correctly. Its simple. Treat it just like a clean V8 swap. Upgrade everything, ALL AT ONCE, with adequate supporting mods and a good tune, and there's no reason it should let go.
Not to ramble on, but in this day, after messing with rotaries for 10 years, I see cars in a different way. You can't get there successfully by upgrading, you get there by re-engineering. Re-doing where Mazda cut corners. There are so many places for improvement...
Many times I'm asked by local friends about listing of FD's and their desires to purchase. My reply these days is if you can afford two, you can afford one. And literally meaning that. My recommendation is pick-up a roller, and start from scratch, replace as much as possible, upgrading in the process and learning.
And you know what? Many may frown at the un-reliability of the stock FD, but I LOVE IT! If it was a reliable as a Toyota Camry and made power as easily as a GTR, there would be nothing special about having a fast FD!
The vision for the 20b build / past 10 yrs of this FD3S has been, make it the car Mazda should have made! Show people that an RX7 can be what you wish it could be!
Gmonsen, to me, your FD is your version of how the RX-7 should have been designed. All makes sense, with the reliability of the N/A 3-Rotor, and your choices for the interior/exterior.
I actually love the car with just basic bolt ons that improve both power and reliability along with dropping 100 pounds of weight. I want less interior/weight not more.
Speaking of weight the LS swap adds 100 pounds no matter what anyone says if you are comparing both setups equally (face it the LS long block and trans weigh more) and the rotary turbo setup isn't 100 pounds it is more like 65 max (remember you still have an exhaust manifold on any car). You can easily have a 2600 pound rotary FD but you can not easily have a 2600 pound LS FD.
My base model silver SSM car is likely 2600 or even 2550 with stereo, PS and AC.
The car is completely simplified with 4 solenoids total running sequentially on 99 twins. It makes about 320 at 12 psi and is a hoot to drive. It's just smooth as silk with nothing in the drive train stressed out because of the low torque/smooth power band yet it's light weight so you don't need the torque. In other words it is less like a truck and more like a sport bike and to me that's what this car is all about.
If you guys want big torque and brutal power along with a plush interior go for it but that's not what this car is all about. Again get a viper or a vette.
Before you dis either of those cars I'd suggest driving one them that's decently modded in anger on a race track. You can't drive any car in anger on the street without bad things happening which is just one more reason no one needs a 400 HP FD as a DD.
Fritz... My car with the NA 3 rotor weighs 2825 despite the somewhat heavier interior due to the leather and sound deadening. Thye NA motor is lighter than the stock twin turbo m,otor, because it has no intercooler or turbo and related stuff.
Monsterman... Thanks very much. As I have said before, I love your car and would copy your build if I ever went turbo. You did an absolutely great job on it as far as performance and aesthetics. I will say that I am working on a Whipple-charged 20b motor. It should still be quite linear, but will have 450 whp or so. Not sure if its going into my current FD or something else, but, I have wanted to try it for some time.
G
Gotcha, then it could easily weight 300 pounds less or 2525
Gmonsen, to me, your FD is your version of how the RX-7 should have been designed. All makes sense, with the reliability of the N/A 3-Rotor, and your choices for the interior/exterior.
I've heard tell those N/A 3 rotors have had failures. It's not exactly the easiest thing to get parts for or find someone who knows how to build them...
The Chevy motor can be worked on by thousands of shops between NYC and LA.
I know I'm on an RX-7 site and all but while you may like the motor and its uniqueness. The LS swap has a following for good reason. The RX-7 isn't the only car this is done to. Pretty much every gutless Japanese Sports car gets the treatment. Even German cars from Porsche's to BMW's.
Also saying that your not an enthusiast unless you like to work on your car? So you think doing engine R&R's could be considered a Feature of these cars? Lol
I've been hearing for 20 years that these cars can be modded to make XXX Hp reliably. All by people I know can build rotaries as well as anyone in the world and I've watched their motors blow up.
Hey no one says you can't love the Wankel. Just quit earning nicknames like "Rotard"
If you like it cool, just own it with its flaws and leave it at that.
I've heard tell those N/A 3 rotors have had failures. It's not exactly the easiest thing to get parts for or find someone who knows how to build them...
The Chevy motor can be worked on by thousands of shops between NYC and LA.
I know I'm on an RX-7 site and all but while you may like the motor and its uniqueness. The LS swap has a following for good reason. The RX-7 isn't the only car this is done to. Pretty much every gutless Japanese Sports car gets the treatment. Even German cars from Porsche's to BMW's.
Also saying that your not an enthusiast unless you like to work on your car? So you think doing engine R&R's could be considered a Feature of these cars? Lol
I've been hearing for 20 years that these cars can be modded to make XXX Hp reliably. All by people I know can build rotaries as well as anyone in the world and I've watched their motors blow up.
Hey no one says you can't love the Wankel. Just quit earning nicknames like "Rotard"
If you like it cool, just own it with its flaws and leave it at that.
Absolutely if the 3 rotor NA car made any damn sense I would have bought Lenny's car.
If ever Mazda decides to build a factory 3 rotor sports car I'll be all over it but until then no thanks.
Yes there is no better practical choice engine in the FD than the LS. Hands down it crushes any decision if being practical is what you are about.
I hope the 3 rotor engine is the most reliable engine on the planet given what it cost. However from what I've seen it makes a single turbo look simple.
Most importantly I don't have parts or knowledge to support it and there isn't a shop in my state that supports a 3 rotor much less a single turbo lol
The v8 powered cars "make more sense" to people who do not like Rx7's.
V8 FD guy here, and I do not like RX7s. I LOVE them!
A Cobra is not an AC Ace... Its a Cobra.
LOVE the AC Ace. LOVE the Cobra. I don't see any inconsistencies here or in the V8 RX7 case.
There is no name for what a swapped v8 in an Rx7 is, but its not "Rx7".
I was gonna call mine an "RX-6.9" (like *almost* an RX-7), but it turns out my new engine is a 6.8 and it just doesn't seem as funny to call it an "RX-6.8"...
In any case, going badgeless when it gets painted so you won't have to worry about me misrepresenting the RX brand!
So, again, people can do whatever they want with their cars and their lives. Whether those decisions are good or bad in the long run takes a long time to figure out.
Good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.
In the end, these machines were wrought from the dust with the help of some foolish humans, and in the end they will return to the dust. Whether or not they had a V8 transplant in the interim is not of any significance. These machines are facking super-cool, but they are not sacred objects, either with rotaries as their maker intended or with whatever powerplants.
In any case, I'm looking forward to driving mine again with its totally new driveline:
6.0 LS2 out, 6.8 forged bottom end LS3 in;
F-bod T56 out, T56 Magnum in;
Torsen T2R out, OS Giken Super Lock in
I hear you, Fritz. It costs about $35,000 for a 3 rotor NA. So, its expensive, but less so than the most expensive single turbo builds and way less than 3 rotor turbos. I paid for 2 motors, sort of, since the first guys that built it, Speed1, really didn't know what they were doing (although they are great with stock rotaries of all sorts and single turbos, etc) and I had Logan rebuild it from scratch. When I went single turbo in 1996, it was sort of the same thing. They weren't common or something anyone had experience with. Anyway, I'm just yakking. Its the best motor for the FD, but it is about $35,000 to build and install, so its expensive, I guess. Its for the more sophisticated driver who values total performance rather than just power or largely power. Only a few people will really ever experience how good an FD can really be. Especially as the 20b short blocks get even scarcer.
G
I'd love to drive your car sometime along with Dan's, Eric's etc....
I can't wait to ride in and drive Pete's car once it's all finished up. His car gets better and better with each passing year.
08-31-15, 03:28 PM
