93 R1

What do you guys think Yes or no.

What are some pros and cons of this intercooler besides having to make piping. I'm going to use it on stock twins and I'm not looking to make insane power but is it as effective at a $1200 front mount for my purposes?

richjackson7

where can i get one...

black99

Check ebay or thepartstrader..


Personally the only reason I don't like them is because I don't like to deal with all of the hassles of fabricating one to go in there, and personally I don't like the "look" of them..

lone wolf

You could get a HKS type S core for under $600 and endtanks are like $100. The core is 600mm x 301mm x 65mm. Weld it and make piping and you'll have a nice intercooler for under $900. Way better then NPR.

Alpine

all the welding and piping will only cost $200?

lone wolf

That's how much my shop is charging me. Well, the endtanks are only $60, so the welding and piping is $240-$290, depending on how much piping they need. Still, they said max would only be $950. If you know how to do it yourself, the parts should only cost you $50 or so, unless you want to polish it or something.

KevinK2

best I can tell, it's off an isuzu turbo diesel truck rated at 175 hp. core gross section for charge flow is 8.5" x 2.25" according to one web site ... looked about right. Not thick tubed, like apexi.

Stock FD IC is 2.5 x 11.5 x 4.5, for 29 sq-in gross charge flow area. SCC measured 2.5 psi pressure drop. NPR gross flow area is much less than stock at 19 sq-in, and longer tubes, so pressure drop will be very high.

NPR IC, not recomended, low hp design.

Trexthe3rd

O.K. I have got to interject here. I have seen misinformation and typos before, but this takes the cake. Please be careful with numerical data when you are giving someone advice.

First off, when referring to a cross section area, it is a 2 dimesional value in the form of X*Y, not X*Y*Z.

Second, the stock turbo piping is (the outlet of the x-over pipe) 2.75" inside diameter, for the IC to achieve 0 pressure drop the X-section area has to be exactly (2.75"/2)^2*3.14159. The larger the x-section the more pressure drop there is. I have installed the NPR IC, and there was no significant pressure drop between the stock IC and the NPR, and thats a fact (boost gauge and boost controller feedback verified). If there is any pressure drop, it is well within 1 psi.

Third, the efficiency of the IC is determined by how close the IC can lower the outlet temp to the ambient temp or [1-(ambient temp/outlet temp)]*100%. After I installed the IC, the outlet temp was measured to within 5 degree of the ambient (using infrared pyrometer). That is pretty damn good efficiency for 400 bucks.

Please try to give advice only on subjects you are well versed in.

KevinK2

amazing .... being technically admonished by the technically clueless. this is a first.

first, if u can't figure which 2 of the 3 dimensions to use ... well, not surprised based on your reply.

second, net IC charge flow area must be several multiples of supply pipe flow area. basic IC theory. hint .. core must have high contact surface area to flow area ratio, for efficient heat exchange, but results in high friction/drag. The larger the x-section, the less pressure drop. Your related statements suggest you have no clue about this subject. Don't believe me? talk to george spears (spearco), or corky bell .. I have.

I have done pressure drop measuremets on other IC's, using an industrial differential meter, and carefully selected and installed tap points. unless u did the same, I doubt your measurment accuracy. the stock IC has HIGH pressure drop .... matching it's drop is NOT a good thing. Most aftermarket ones will have much less.

third, total IC efficieny is a combination of temperature and pressure drop performance. This IC will drop temps much better than stock, but can not compare with a propery sized FMIC, esp if well above stock hp, due to it's small net charge flow area.

rxrotary2_7

The NPR IC: at 329cfm and 290°F on the inlet side of the IC, the
pressure
drop is 0.09psi. The outlet temp is 130°F, heat rejected is 55553
BTU/hr, and
the calculated heat exchange area is 1404 square inches.

Starion IC : (the bigger one) at 324cfm and 292°F on the inlet side of
the
IC, the pressure drop is 0.29psi. The outlet temp is 139°F, heat
rejected is
52287 BTU/hr, and the calculated heat exchange area is 1217 square
inches.

Saab 9000 IC: at 332cfm and 295°F on the inlet side of the IC, the
pressure
drop is 0.81psi. The outlet temp is 123°F, heat rejected is 60350
BTU/hr, and
the calculated heat exchange area is 1602 square inches.

Volvo IC: at 331cfm and 293°F on the inlet side of the IC, the pressure
drop
is 0.55psi. The outlet temp is 126°F, heat rejected is 58809 BTU/hr,
and the
calculated heat exchange area is 1539 square inches.




this info was taken from some ford site i found before. these were tests done on the IC's. maybe this will help one of your arguments.

rxrotary2_7

oh, and there are plenty of cars running these IC's in puerto rico and australia running VERY low numbers.

Trexthe3rd

O.K Genius. Let's look at your numbers closer:

Stock IC: L=11.5, W=4.5, D=2.5
You came up with a charge flow area of 29 sqr in. It appears that you simply multiplied the Length by the Depth.

NPR IC: L=19.5, W=8.5, D=2.25
Here you got the value of 19 sqr in. Again, simple multiplication, but wait, it gets better, now you have multiplied the Width by the Depth.

While I am not any expert on intercoolers, but I do know math and physics, so why don't you educate me and the rest of the masses on what is your definition of the "net charge flow area".

KevinK2

not a genius, but ..

stock, worthless IC has 4.5" long tubes. Gross charge flow area is 11.5 x 2.5 = 29 sq-in.

net charge flow is a fraction of gross, around 40%.

rxrotary, I think I talked to the guy that posted those those numbers ... they were based on a spead sheet calculation, and not measured. I did measure one of the IC's he ran, and pressure drop was way off.

Trexthe3rd

How does multiplying the length and the depth (thickness) of the intercooler produce the "gross charge flow area"?
So by the way you calculated the "gross charge flow area", would you mind doing a similar caculation for the NPR for us?

The numbers rxrotary2_7 provided coincides with my calculations almost exactly (thanks for the data). The total heat exchange surface area is quoted as 1404 sqr in. And my caculations shows the following:
Length of the flow path = 19.5" (same as the length of the core, NPR has horizontal flow paths)
Width of the flow path = 2.25" (same as the depth of the core)
Number of flow paths = 16 (since the flow paths are in the shape of a flattened cylinder there are two flat surfaces, therefor 16 is multiplied by 2 to yield 32 contacting surfaces)

19.5*2.25*32 = 1404 sqr in
this is the only value directly related to the amount of temperature drop (as evident in the data provide by rxrotary2_7)

By the same token, here is what you'll get with the stock IC:
(the stock IC has vertical flow paths)
4.5*2.5*22 = 247.5 sqr in

Again, I ask you, please enlighten us with the actual caculation you would use for the NPR, the same way you calculated the numbers for the stock IC.

93 R1

O.K. Calm down fellas...

So basically the NPR is not as efficient as a namebrand FMIC...I knew that. And it is way more efficient then the stock IC...I knew that.

Is it any more efficient than a stock mount upgrade, say from M2 or Blitz? I want to use this IC (NPR)on the stock turbos with basic bolt ons and fuel management. I'm thinking maybe 300-325 rwhp. I figure if I can save $400-800 by using the NPR for now then I can use the money to put towards other mods or my single later down the road.

Will the NPR work for what I want?

rxrotary2_7

i was thinking the same thing.

Trexthe3rd

The 2 basic advantage/differences between SMIC and FMIC is the heat soak syndrom. When sitting in traffic, the SMIC is basically sitting there absorbing heat. I think some article had jokingly referred to it as an INTERHEATER in stop and go traffic. The 2nd is the amount of air flow received for cooling. The SMIC requires some kind of ducting to get air flow, while the FMIC sits dead smack in the front of the car where all the air flows through.
So the answer is a definite yes.
The aftermarket SMICs are better than the oem SMIC in the sense that they have much larger effective cooling surfaces. The cooling surface on M2 large SMIC is comparable to most FMICs. But it is not as efficient as FMICs for the reasons stated. By the way, to go with an aftermarket large SMIC, the battery will have to be relocated, and the intake system modified to fit the IC.

93 R1

So in your opinion would the NPR be as efficient as an aftermarket SMIC?

P'cola FD

I would think yes and no. Yes because it won't heat soak and at low speeds it gets more air to cool it. But no because an an aftermarket stock mount would result in less pressure drop. Just my $.02

KevinK2

I'm not using stock IC tube length for charge flow area ... never did, have no clue what u are talking about. I already compared both in my 1st post, width x depth.

Reread my stuff ... temperature drop was not questioned, pressure drop was, and spread sheet calc'n for press drop was not correct, based on actual measurement of one case run. None of your math addresses this.

one more try ....

This IC was designed for air flow rates related to 175 hp. The gross area of the core end, that charge air enters, is small. The stock IC, known to have a high pressure drop, has 50% more gross core area at the end that charge air enters. The extra length of the NPR improves heat exchange, but adds to pressure drop.

gross, charge flow cross sectional area of core, w x d, sq in:

stock = 29
NPR = 19
M2 = 40
PFS = 37

actual net area is about 40% of gross

FD Seeker

So, what's the best SMIC out there?
Do all aftermarket SMICs require battery (or other) relocation?