My engine GONE!! I'm so sad!!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,597
Likes: 6
From: Alabama
Originally Posted by SleepR1
I think the vinegar flush is for removing scale deposits that have accumulated in the radiator?
Also, here is something I found that is informative.. maybe..
Sounds fantastic, but is it. If you wanted to experiment with 100%
inhibited propylene glycol you could try the "Seirra" environmentally safe
stuff available everywhere. But is it better, or is it marketing.
Lets use some data to cloud the issue.(ASHRAE Fundamentals,Sec 18.7-9)
@ 200 F /Water /Ehtylene Glycol / Propylene Glycol
heat cap
btu/lb-F 1.0 / 0.63 / 0.69
(more is better)
Viscosity
cp 0.3 / 2.5 / 3.0
(less is better)
Boiling point
Point F 212 / 388 / 369
(more is better)
Max contact
temp F n/a / 300 / 300
Thermal
Conductivity 0.38 / 0.13 / 0.10
1. So, With the reduced heat capacity, you would have to pump 30-35% more
glycol (more mass) to transfer the same energy as water, or raise the
temperature of the glycol (heat=mass x heat cap x temp rise).
2. And as the viscosity of the fluid increases the pumping frictional
losses increase, thus moving less fluid for the same speed. This increases
the temperature (see 1).
3. A little temp increase that should be ok, right? The boiling point is
much higher for the glycols. But what about caburization temp? At 300 F
the glycols start to thermally decompose (scorch). Is this a problem?
4. And finally, the thermal conductivity (a measure of how fast the fluid
adsorbes or gives up heat) is a third of that of water. This again tends to
raise the temp.
I'm guessing if you ran pure antifreeze or the sierra product or the Evans
NPG in your Pantera it would run VERY warm. You would have to get a new
guage to read that warm, 260-300. It wouldn't boil over, but would it cook
the glycol to cylinders walls in the water jacket.
Corrosion inhibited water is probably better for a stock pantera cooling
system.
inhibited propylene glycol you could try the "Seirra" environmentally safe
stuff available everywhere. But is it better, or is it marketing.
Lets use some data to cloud the issue.(ASHRAE Fundamentals,Sec 18.7-9)
@ 200 F /Water /Ehtylene Glycol / Propylene Glycol
heat cap
btu/lb-F 1.0 / 0.63 / 0.69
(more is better)
Viscosity
cp 0.3 / 2.5 / 3.0
(less is better)
Boiling point
Point F 212 / 388 / 369
(more is better)
Max contact
temp F n/a / 300 / 300
Thermal
Conductivity 0.38 / 0.13 / 0.10
1. So, With the reduced heat capacity, you would have to pump 30-35% more
glycol (more mass) to transfer the same energy as water, or raise the
temperature of the glycol (heat=mass x heat cap x temp rise).
2. And as the viscosity of the fluid increases the pumping frictional
losses increase, thus moving less fluid for the same speed. This increases
the temperature (see 1).
3. A little temp increase that should be ok, right? The boiling point is
much higher for the glycols. But what about caburization temp? At 300 F
the glycols start to thermally decompose (scorch). Is this a problem?
4. And finally, the thermal conductivity (a measure of how fast the fluid
adsorbes or gives up heat) is a third of that of water. This again tends to
raise the temp.
I'm guessing if you ran pure antifreeze or the sierra product or the Evans
NPG in your Pantera it would run VERY warm. You would have to get a new
guage to read that warm, 260-300. It wouldn't boil over, but would it cook
the glycol to cylinders walls in the water jacket.
Corrosion inhibited water is probably better for a stock pantera cooling
system.
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
I dunno, Phil. We can theorize all we want, but it all "boils" down to bench testing...that is actually trying the Evans NPG+, and seeing what it does. It's hard to compare piston motors to rotaries, as rx7tt95 points out. Rob Golden swears by Evans, and won't warrant his motors without using Evans...I'm gonna try the NPG+, and see what happens next summer.
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Rutherford
i need help with a Rx7 "1986" 13B Fuel Injection motor
i need help with my car, it has a 13B fuel Injection motor but it wont crank or kick over the battery works and the lights come on i just dont know what else is wrong.
Originally Posted by herblenny
I guess so.. I have some lab grade acetic acid.. I might give it a shot..
Also, here is something I found that is informative.. maybe..
Also, here is something I found that is informative.. maybe..
I don't know where people get the idea that NPG+ runs really hot. I see +10 degree hotter but not 50 or 60 like everyone is spouting.
What I like is the headroom, no corrosion, components constantly lubricated.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,597
Likes: 6
From: Alabama
Originally Posted by crazyedy467
i need help with my car, it has a 13B fuel Injection motor but it wont crank or kick over the battery works and the lights come on i just dont know what else is wrong.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,597
Likes: 6
From: Alabama
Went to Nashville to pick up another 3rd gen.. I need to thank Grey's 10th and Academytim for helping me bring back my new(used) 3rd gen..
Here are some pics..
Here are some pics..
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,597
Likes: 6
From: Alabama
Originally Posted by cruiser
Why on earth did you buy another blown FD ? 
Also, My engine is finally out!!
I need to thank SPOautos for helping me out on this..
Last edited by Herblenny; Aug 17, 2004 at 09:23 AM.
While you have the engine out, replace the steering rack, heater hoses, put in new o-rings for the AC lines, fuel lines, PS lines, oil cooler lines.
A wiring harness is a definitive must.
Also, build ducting for the radiator while you're at it.
I ended up spending another $2000 on top of the price of an engine for all the parts.
A wiring harness is a definitive must.
Also, build ducting for the radiator while you're at it.
I ended up spending another $2000 on top of the price of an engine for all the parts.
Phil,your car is the original tuner transformation..
Sleep I will watch with interest how NPG works for you,and mabey run a few laps at Mid Ohio or whatever this year. I,m just Daisy+
As cooling goes are we not just kidding ourselves that anything other than a large radiator with direct airflow and ducting(include oil coolers)will be our first line of defense.
I elected to go front mount ic too,before the V mount became popular,the V mount looks like a great compromise,but I,m wondering with a bit or fabbing if its fesable to "V" mount a 2 row front IC and a Koyo rad?
Sleep I will watch with interest how NPG works for you,and mabey run a few laps at Mid Ohio or whatever this year. I,m just Daisy+
As cooling goes are we not just kidding ourselves that anything other than a large radiator with direct airflow and ducting(include oil coolers)will be our first line of defense.
I elected to go front mount ic too,before the V mount became popular,the V mount looks like a great compromise,but I,m wondering with a bit or fabbing if its fesable to "V" mount a 2 row front IC and a Koyo rad?
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 2
From: IN
Originally Posted by mp5
Sleep I will watch with interest how NPG works for you,and mabey run a few laps at Mid Ohio or whatever this year. I,m just Daisy+
I elected to go front mount ic too, before the V mount became popular,the V mount looks like a great compromise, but I,m wondering with a bit or fabbing if its fesable to "V" mount a 2 row front IC and a Koyo rad?
Last edited by SleepR1; Aug 17, 2004 at 09:53 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,597
Likes: 6
From: Alabama
Originally Posted by sk8world
Phil, what is the expeted date for steve to come back for tuning?
Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Phil, when is Steve gonna FINISH tuning down there and head back to Gotham? Cuz I've been trying to get ahold of him for over a week now...
~Ramy
~Ramy
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