Motor seized!!!
04-09-04, 11:15 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Clovis, NM
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Motor seized!!!
My FD sat for close to two years without being started. I just had the car painted with full body kit installed. I had the gas lines blown out (back toward the tank) and fuel drained. Fresh oil was introduced, unfortunately, the mechanic couldn't turn the motor over by hand or by wrench. He said that there was some moisture inside and that the plugs were somewhat corroded. So I figured that maybe the motor was rusted shut. ATF was put down the plug holes and the nipples on the intake manifold but so far she won't budge. I'd like to try and start it but the mechanic is afraid to break an apex seal or something. I guess first priority should have been to make sure the motor would start before spending over 10K on body work and exterior parts. Any suggestions?
Trending Topics
04-10-04, 07:46 AM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Clovis, NM
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by skunks
why was it sitting for so long?
why was it sitting for so long?
04-10-04, 08:20 AM
#9
QUOTE]Originally posted by Crazy_Jake
Well it was vandalized and I took it to a body shop to get the work done.............mazdaformance for exterior parts. My motor had 4k miles on it before it went in the body shop, it was just rebuilt, I spent almost $10K on that, but that's another horror story and another law suit. [/QUOTE]
Don't let them get away with that ****..Too many have lost time ,money and sweat to bad spray shops and rotten workshops *cough* pineapple*cough* . Sueing them is the one way that they will get any retribution other than burning their shops to the ground and pissing on the ashes..
As for the motor , there is a write up on stuck engines written , go check it out ...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=281207
Hope things work out ....
Well it was vandalized and I took it to a body shop to get the work done.............mazdaformance for exterior parts. My motor had 4k miles on it before it went in the body shop, it was just rebuilt, I spent almost $10K on that, but that's another horror story and another law suit. [/QUOTE]
Don't let them get away with that ****..Too many have lost time ,money and sweat to bad spray shops and rotten workshops *cough* pineapple*cough* . Sueing them is the one way that they will get any retribution other than burning their shops to the ground and pissing on the ashes..
As for the motor , there is a write up on stuck engines written , go check it out ...
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=281207
Hope things work out ....
04-10-04, 09:08 AM
#10
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Malta
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from my understanding try unplugging the coils and spray alot of WD40 the kind of lubricant and water dispencer lub spray from both uim and top two spark plug holes leave for 10 minutes and spray a litte more and try turning the crank,
as soon as the crank moves pour some two stroke oil mixed with fuel, get a new battery and crank the engine for 15 sec and pour some more oil/fuel and do the same for 3 times. should get the seal going, then i would compression check the engine see if the springs are working and seals are not broken if all is ok. then i would replace the plugs (new) set. unflood the engine buy unplugging the injectors and cranking it again for 3 times
you only have two choices one is what the machanic said and most probably right or take a chance with what i suggested if it doesn't work you need the rebuild
it happend to me with my two stroke go cart engine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as soon as the crank moves pour some two stroke oil mixed with fuel, get a new battery and crank the engine for 15 sec and pour some more oil/fuel and do the same for 3 times. should get the seal going, then i would compression check the engine see if the springs are working and seals are not broken if all is ok. then i would replace the plugs (new) set. unflood the engine buy unplugging the injectors and cranking it again for 3 times
you only have two choices one is what the machanic said and most probably right or take a chance with what i suggested if it doesn't work you need the rebuild
it happend to me with my two stroke go cart engine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04-10-04, 09:43 AM
#11
Don't use an impact wrench, all that will do is tighten the crap out of the nut on the front.
Put some oil/ATF down the lower intake manifold and some in the plug holes. Then try push it backwards and pop the clutch when it is in 1st gear. That should free it up.
There could be two reasons it is siezed. Carbon lock, common when moisture absorbed by the carbon on the rotor face, when the carbon swells and you try and start the motor the carbon will come into contact with the rotor housing and wedge the motor tight. It is possible to save this type of motor.
If you had a lot of moisture in there the rotors could have rusted to the side housings, this is not good but I'd try and break it free and see what happens.
I had an 87TII that got carbon lock while I was putting a turbo on the motor back in '96. The motor seized (142K miles on it) when I tried to start it, I pulled the motor and put in another one before learning of the carbon lock issue. I sold that motor and after a while I bought it back, in 2001 I put it in another TII, that TII is still running strong with that original Mazda engine, mileage is over 185K miles.
Put some oil/ATF down the lower intake manifold and some in the plug holes. Then try push it backwards and pop the clutch when it is in 1st gear. That should free it up.
There could be two reasons it is siezed. Carbon lock, common when moisture absorbed by the carbon on the rotor face, when the carbon swells and you try and start the motor the carbon will come into contact with the rotor housing and wedge the motor tight. It is possible to save this type of motor.
If you had a lot of moisture in there the rotors could have rusted to the side housings, this is not good but I'd try and break it free and see what happens.
I had an 87TII that got carbon lock while I was putting a turbo on the motor back in '96. The motor seized (142K miles on it) when I tried to start it, I pulled the motor and put in another one before learning of the carbon lock issue. I sold that motor and after a while I bought it back, in 2001 I put it in another TII, that TII is still running strong with that original Mazda engine, mileage is over 185K miles.
04-10-04, 09:46 AM
#12
I'm a CF and poop smith
Originally posted by Crazy_Jake
Well it was vandalized and I took it to a body shop to get the work done. The owner of the shop cashed the insurance check by forging my name. He didn't have any incentive to finish it so it sat for 6 months. I then tried to get the police involved, they said it was a civil matter. I called my insurance company, who in turn, called the owner of the shop, against my wishes. He got pissed and my car sat there a year before I could literally steel the car from his shop. So I had to pay for the damages to my vehicle out of my own pocket as well as for parts he lost and having my interior ruined by a year and a half of paint and primer overspray. I learned a valuable lesson and that our laws have much to be desired. I'm currently in the process of sueing him. He also lost a large portion of the interior and exterior trim pieces. I just spent $3500 at mazdaformance for exterior parts. My motor had 4k miles on it before it went in the body shop, it was just rebuilt, I spent almost $10K on that, but that's another horror story and another law suit.
Well it was vandalized and I took it to a body shop to get the work done. The owner of the shop cashed the insurance check by forging my name. He didn't have any incentive to finish it so it sat for 6 months. I then tried to get the police involved, they said it was a civil matter. I called my insurance company, who in turn, called the owner of the shop, against my wishes. He got pissed and my car sat there a year before I could literally steel the car from his shop. So I had to pay for the damages to my vehicle out of my own pocket as well as for parts he lost and having my interior ruined by a year and a half of paint and primer overspray. I learned a valuable lesson and that our laws have much to be desired. I'm currently in the process of sueing him. He also lost a large portion of the interior and exterior trim pieces. I just spent $3500 at mazdaformance for exterior parts. My motor had 4k miles on it before it went in the body shop, it was just rebuilt, I spent almost $10K on that, but that's another horror story and another law suit.
well this would be after suing him 
in anycase, idk about rolling it backwards and popping clutch in 1st gear. shouldn't it be in reverse? idk if its ok to run a rotary or any other engine in reverse and popping clutch in 1st. hmmm this could be a mute point if you have an auto.
Last edited by skunks; 04-10-04 at 09:51 AM.
04-10-04, 08:01 PM
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Clovis, NM
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by skunks
in anycase, idk about rolling it backwards and popping clutch in 1st gear. shouldn't it be in reverse? idk if its ok to run a rotary or any other engine in reverse and popping clutch in 1st. hmmm this could be a mute point if you have an auto.
in anycase, idk about rolling it backwards and popping clutch in 1st gear. shouldn't it be in reverse? idk if its ok to run a rotary or any other engine in reverse and popping clutch in 1st. hmmm this could be a mute point if you have an auto.
04-10-04, 11:52 PM
#16
built my own engine
my bad, turbojeff is right, i have freed some junk cores with impacts, but when it comes to a working motor i always check with the "roll in gear" test, i usually use 4th gear
listen to him on this one
listen to him on this one
04-11-04, 03:44 AM
#17
As an engine builder, I will chime in here.
Rotary engines sieze for 4 main reasons.
1) oil starvation/oil system failure. Spun bearings, broken eccentric shafts, bearings welded to e-shaft journals from lack of oil. No cure but disassembly and rebuild.
2) carbon lock. *TRUE* carbon lock is very rare in rotary engines. During disassembly of literally hundreds of rotary cores of all years, mileages, ages, and treatment, I have found only ONE TRUE case of carbon lock. My FD. I bought it from hinsonsupercars with 107k on the original engine. Someone had started taking it apart, but never got too far. I pulled the engine apart and found literally 1/8" of carbon on every rotor face, so much that it could not physically spin anymore. This engine had to have been babied to last that long, and develop that much carbon.
3) apex seal lock. This is what most people unknowingly refer to as carbon lock. WHen rotaries blow apex seals, it is usually at speed, under load. A seal breaks, parts fly around inside, and finally get thrown out the exhaust...part of the engine loses compression, but it contunies to spin because the engine posessed enough momentum to overcome the force of the apex seal wedging itself between the rotor and rotorhousing.
On rare occasions, this same thing happens when either shutting the engine down, or cranking it for startup. IF the seal breaks or falls out of its groove then, the engine won't have enough momentum to overcome the wedging effect, and the engine will simply lock up. IF you leave it alone and take it apart as it is, you'll fine one apex seal broken and wedged into place. IF you force the engine to turn and find out it needs a rebuild anyway (it will), you'll find all 3 apex's plus the rotor and housing torn up, just like in any other blown apex motor. Because you provided the necessary momentum to overcome the apex seal's wedging effect.
4) rust/seal lock. Letting a rotary sit too long can cause this, especially in humid conditions, or when an engine is removed from the car and exposed to the elements. We all know the apex seals are spring loaded from underneath (as are all the rotor seals necessary for compression) and the apex's move up and down as the rotor makes it's revolutions. Therefore, when the engine is shut down, 2 or 3 seals will be randomly compressed, and 2 or 3 seals will be expanded outward. Let's say you leave this engine sitting for 2 years. Those seals tend to lock themselves in place. Partially due to small amounts of carbon that have accumulated in grooves adjacent to the seals, and/or partially due to rust and moisture.
So now let's say you come along and force this engine to turn again. IT may not turn at all, because the seals that are expanded outward are now binded up in their grooves and don't want to return inward (a requirement for the engine to rotate), as well as pooled up rust material that has attatched itself to the walls of the engine and the rotor's surface.
IF it does turn (less severe cases), the seals are still a bit sticky in their grooves. This results in poorer compression, and sometimes stuck seals. The seals that were compressed in for that long duration of time, now no longer want to move freely outward. This resistance lowers compression. Furthermore, the apex springs that remained compressed for so long, no exert less tension on the seal above it, and thus you have another reason for lowered compression.
Finally, you see a lot of engines (I deal in old 2gens a lot, that have sat for years on end) like this that you actually get started up, and they die soon thereafter, even if treated well. The main reason for this is that the seals are still sticky in their grooves, and you're forcing them to move. Mazda;'s 3 piece seal design makes for a pretty weak top seal piece, that only takes a few pounds of uneven pressure to cause a break. So, those seals that have a certain spot with a little bit more carbon/rust buildup in the groove that are forced back into service, will break soon thereafter, unless they are/were well lubricated beforehand. This is why used rotaries (that havent been in service recently) are always a bad idea, and why so many people blow junkyard/jspec engines soon after installation.
Bottom line, the rotary needs special storage attention. You should pre-lube the internals GENEROUSLY with something thick enough to coat all the surfaces, yet thin enough to penetrate all the seal grooves. For this, ATF, MMO, 2 cycle, etc. work well. Regular motor oil is generally too thick for this purpose, but is better than nothing. WD-40 and the like are too thin, and will soon run down off the upper surfaces and pool in the bottom. After the pre-lube is accomplished, you should still arrange to rotate the engine 1 turn every month or so, if at all possible.
Rotary engines sieze for 4 main reasons.
1) oil starvation/oil system failure. Spun bearings, broken eccentric shafts, bearings welded to e-shaft journals from lack of oil. No cure but disassembly and rebuild.
2) carbon lock. *TRUE* carbon lock is very rare in rotary engines. During disassembly of literally hundreds of rotary cores of all years, mileages, ages, and treatment, I have found only ONE TRUE case of carbon lock. My FD. I bought it from hinsonsupercars with 107k on the original engine. Someone had started taking it apart, but never got too far. I pulled the engine apart and found literally 1/8" of carbon on every rotor face, so much that it could not physically spin anymore. This engine had to have been babied to last that long, and develop that much carbon.
3) apex seal lock. This is what most people unknowingly refer to as carbon lock. WHen rotaries blow apex seals, it is usually at speed, under load. A seal breaks, parts fly around inside, and finally get thrown out the exhaust...part of the engine loses compression, but it contunies to spin because the engine posessed enough momentum to overcome the force of the apex seal wedging itself between the rotor and rotorhousing.
On rare occasions, this same thing happens when either shutting the engine down, or cranking it for startup. IF the seal breaks or falls out of its groove then, the engine won't have enough momentum to overcome the wedging effect, and the engine will simply lock up. IF you leave it alone and take it apart as it is, you'll fine one apex seal broken and wedged into place. IF you force the engine to turn and find out it needs a rebuild anyway (it will), you'll find all 3 apex's plus the rotor and housing torn up, just like in any other blown apex motor. Because you provided the necessary momentum to overcome the apex seal's wedging effect.
4) rust/seal lock. Letting a rotary sit too long can cause this, especially in humid conditions, or when an engine is removed from the car and exposed to the elements. We all know the apex seals are spring loaded from underneath (as are all the rotor seals necessary for compression) and the apex's move up and down as the rotor makes it's revolutions. Therefore, when the engine is shut down, 2 or 3 seals will be randomly compressed, and 2 or 3 seals will be expanded outward. Let's say you leave this engine sitting for 2 years. Those seals tend to lock themselves in place. Partially due to small amounts of carbon that have accumulated in grooves adjacent to the seals, and/or partially due to rust and moisture.
So now let's say you come along and force this engine to turn again. IT may not turn at all, because the seals that are expanded outward are now binded up in their grooves and don't want to return inward (a requirement for the engine to rotate), as well as pooled up rust material that has attatched itself to the walls of the engine and the rotor's surface.
IF it does turn (less severe cases), the seals are still a bit sticky in their grooves. This results in poorer compression, and sometimes stuck seals. The seals that were compressed in for that long duration of time, now no longer want to move freely outward. This resistance lowers compression. Furthermore, the apex springs that remained compressed for so long, no exert less tension on the seal above it, and thus you have another reason for lowered compression.
Finally, you see a lot of engines (I deal in old 2gens a lot, that have sat for years on end) like this that you actually get started up, and they die soon thereafter, even if treated well. The main reason for this is that the seals are still sticky in their grooves, and you're forcing them to move. Mazda;'s 3 piece seal design makes for a pretty weak top seal piece, that only takes a few pounds of uneven pressure to cause a break. So, those seals that have a certain spot with a little bit more carbon/rust buildup in the groove that are forced back into service, will break soon thereafter, unless they are/were well lubricated beforehand. This is why used rotaries (that havent been in service recently) are always a bad idea, and why so many people blow junkyard/jspec engines soon after installation.
Bottom line, the rotary needs special storage attention. You should pre-lube the internals GENEROUSLY with something thick enough to coat all the surfaces, yet thin enough to penetrate all the seal grooves. For this, ATF, MMO, 2 cycle, etc. work well. Regular motor oil is generally too thick for this purpose, but is better than nothing. WD-40 and the like are too thin, and will soon run down off the upper surfaces and pool in the bottom. After the pre-lube is accomplished, you should still arrange to rotate the engine 1 turn every month or so, if at all possible.
04-11-04, 09:40 PM
#19
This may sound foolish, but I had a power steering pump bearing seize and stalled the engine. The starter would not turn it......it may be worth a try to remove the belts and work with the transmission to try and free it? It could be something as simple as the alternator,air pump or powersteering adding to the problem.
Just a thought.....
Just a thought.....
04-12-04, 05:27 AM
#21
I'm a CF and poop smith
Originally posted by BigAl65
This may sound foolish, but I had a power steering pump bearing seize and stalled the engine. The starter would not turn it......it may be worth a try to remove the belts and work with the transmission to try and free it? It could be something as simple as the alternator,air pump or powersteering adding to the problem.
Just a thought.....
This may sound foolish, but I had a power steering pump bearing seize and stalled the engine. The starter would not turn it......it may be worth a try to remove the belts and work with the transmission to try and free it? It could be something as simple as the alternator,air pump or powersteering adding to the problem.
Just a thought.....
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post