Wrote a bunch of nonesense

 

In my experience, nothing good ever came of that much rear toe. You have understeer/push at turn in, 1/4" rear toe is likely a big contributor to that! With the FD (which I've only tracked a few times) I've been going with toe settings in the range FF is using: 0-1/16" total.

Admirable 49.6/50.4 F/R weight distribution for a 20b turbo! Some V8 guys go on about how much more front-heavy they are than an LS swap

One reason I'm no fan of "hellaflush"! Tires should have a place to go under heavy cornering: INside the fender opening! Yeah, I know what you're saying about how the cutout makes it look more jacked. Still, it looks like a lot of rake.

Less rear toe should allow you to go stiffer on the front bar and get better drive out of corners.

Spend that $$$ on bodywork

So push push push on corner entry? Lose all that rear toe-in!

Unfortunately it is a natural consequence of having a ton of power that the setup is going to be skewed in the understeery direction in order to utilize that power on corner exit. But you should be able to get it to turn in well under trail-braking.

What coilovers/dampers are you using?

 

I don't think I did! Dj asked a specific question about our NA setups and I gave him some specifics about mine and why I love it. I actually flew over to attend the May event and was invited by Gordon to bring my car. If you have a problem with me answering someones question with added details, then that's your deal.

 

^ LOL, he was referencing his own post before he edited it.

 

Well my appologies then. It was hard too tell when he didn't say "I". I looked back to find his previous post and couldn't find anything so I assumbed it was directed at me since it was underneath. My bad!

 

hah +1 I replied to a post that was done before the event even happened so i quickly edited it

hah its ok , I wrote it in between hold times at work so it was sorta a quick ninja job didnt think tomuch into it , but yes like stated above I was indeed Reffering to myself

if I had done the (^---) THEN! them be fighting words LMAO But no sorry for the misunderstanding I didn't mean anything by what I said

 

3 rotor guys get so testy In all seriousness though if you are happy with the car that is great. I havent driven an NA 3 rotor but judging from the very few dyno sheets that seem to exist its hard to see where the excitement comes from. I always hear about the linear power curve and maybe there is something too that, however, the only impressive one to date is Defined's setup and it is far from anything Mazda would ever have released. I just wish some of you NA 3 rotor guys would post some dyno sheets and we can over lay them with sequential stock twins and small single turbos to see the real difference.

 

^ I'll tell you right now that a properly running twin rew will have more torque when it hits boost however you still have lag waiting for it down low. 20b torque starts around 150lbs and goes up from there. When I say down low, I'm talking in the sub 3k range. The NA 20b's throttle response is instant. You wait for nothing it just happens. The initial torque is nothing special, its the responsiveness that makes the difference in how it feels over even a twin 13b.

One thing I will say the very 1st time I drove mine back in 09 with all the initial bugs worked out, it blew my mind. I floored it during a 5mph roll and rear my tires lit up. I was like oh sh.t. It was something I didn't expect to happen. Even though I was on my stock 225 series tires, my stock twin turbo never did anything like that. My intake was also only in stage 1 and only running on the side ports. It's not always about torque to me, its the simplicity of it all.

My build is finally complete. It's just in refinishing stages and I still have a tiny bit of tuning to do. I can't speak for the other NA guys but I will post dyno results as soon as I find a suitable place to get that done in my part of the country.

 

honestly the sound of a 3 rotor alone makesi t worth it . haha smooth leniar power

nothing worse then being mid corner when your second turbo kicks in then kicks your *** and you end up spinning ( that happened a couple months ago ) haha .

this is why I'm shooting for very smooth power band with my next tune .

BUT for people like me .. broke as hell who just love the rx7's the stock twins are about as close as we're going to get to that quick response of a 3 rotor .

 

A purpose setup 2 rotor turbo will have just as quick response as a 3 rotor N/A with more top-end. Have a look at a setup built to do just that... Of course simplicity has its pluses too.

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...d-dyno-956766/

thewird

 

I have a friend https://www.rx7club.com/build-thread...build-1032529/ going for a very similar build . but like I stated above . money was my limiting factor , I'm waiting to see what results my new build will bring about . I dont think it will be comparable to a NA 3 rotor , but as long as it has a nice powerband I wont be disappointed . I was happy with 300 whp

fritz I think is shooting for similar power to the above , and I'd love to see what he will do in round two of the comparisons . compared to the 3 rotor monsters . and the TT DJ's car ( he's running something very similar to what I am )

 

I remember commenting on that vehicle. Awesome!

 

You are so right about the sound and those twins kicking in. Anyways I was broke too when I started my 20b journey. Hell I've got 20k total invested in the complete project (minus car) that I've spent over the last 10 years. So 2 grand a year average was easily doable for me. Now I'm making good money and now the car is practically finished, LOL!

 

I really wish I would have saw this in time

 

VIR Event #2! Monday November 25th - Full Track Day

We now have a tentative date for the next event, Monday November 25th. We have reserved the North Course for the full day:

http://virnow.com/files/2011/11/Nort...MapCorners.jpg

The North Course is a great one and has some of the best turns and straight-aways at VIR. It's 2.25 miles of an awesome experience and it will be a blast to see all RX7s out on the course. I will have my single turbo 3 rotor there and I will let the others confirm their attendance, including Gordon's NA 3 rotor and Logan's 4 rotor. Fritz Flynn and Peter Hahn will be providing course expertise in their usual "Stig" style. If we can pull it off, we'll do the "comparo" event we planned for the last time, where we will attempt to compare the various levels of rotary upgrades to try to draw some conclusions. This fell apart on us in May so it's still our goal, but if it doesn't happen, that is okay too. Regardless, it's just great fun to hang out with fellow rotor heads at VIR, considered by most to be the best tracking venue on the East Coast. And yes, V8s are welcome!

So, if you attended the last event in May, you know how much fun it was. If you didn't attend, then now is your chance to join in and have a great time.

Event Details
We will try to run the event like we did the last one and keep it informal. We'll have the track for the full day so there will be plenty of track time available for all. To rent the track, it will cost $4,500 (which is pretty cheap for VIR), so we are looking to get 15 guys that want to track to sign up at $300 apiece. If we can get more to participate, we can lower the cost but at $300, it's a screaming deal for a closed track session. Just us and no one else

So, if you if have tracked your car at other events, and want to join in, pm Fritz Flynn with your details (car, track experience). He will make the call as to your status for driving solo. If you are a newbie like me, then we can still get you out on the track but we will need to assign you to one of the guys that can serve as an instructor for you. Ideally, we can assign everyone to "run" groups and make this a little more formal than last time. We want everyone to have fun but to also be safe and not get hurt. Remember, this is not a grudge match where we are trying to "beat" someone else, it's an opportunity to get together for one last time before the season ends. And if we can make this one a success like the last, then I'd propose we make this an official twice a year event and slot it around DGRR, Rotorfest, and the Chris Carlisi event so we have a full season of all things rotary.

If you haven't tracked before, we will try to have a run group designated just for you, where you will be paired up with an instructor to help you learn the course and driving techniques. We will also have an instruction session in the morning before beginning the event so you can learn in a classroom setting about driving and in particular, the North Course. I've only tracked now a handful of times but it is great fun, especially if you respect the power of your car and if you know your driving limitations. Tracking is all about learning the characteristics and limits of your car and then going out and repeating what your instructor discusses with you. Speed will come with repetition, skill, and experience and there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking it easy when you are learning.

If you don't want to track, but wish to show up and hang out or maybe get out on the course with an experienced driver, then this is the event for you as well. I think we all had a blast last time taking advantage of the generosity of Fritz, Peter, Bill, Dan and a few others, so we will try to make this happen again.

Finally, I'm speaking with a few potential sponsors for the event so we can try to have a food tent setup for our use. No prizes or anything like that, but food and drink during the day would be great

To make this happen, we need to hear from you as soon as possible, preferably this week. So, use the signup sheets below and let's get this party started! If you want to track at $300 for the full day, please place your name on the below list and pm Fritz Flynn with your car and driving details.

Look forward to making this happen and to seeing you on November 25th!


YES I WANT TO ATTEND SO SIGN ME UP!!

Click here for the new thread and to sign up:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati.../#post11597018

 

Glad to here we are trying to get this party started

Pete and I are signed up for the BMW event that weekend so we should be there

David,
I'd suggest starting a new thread with a title specific to this latest event.

 

Yup,
Pending my instructor app for BMW, I'm in.

ALSO, I've been tracking a sequential TT RX7 since 1999, and can honestly say, I don't think I've ever had an issue (or even noticed) any awkward kick-in of the second turbo mid-corner. Not an issue for me.

 

I hate to inform you that your sequential setup was not working properly. Even with 275s on my personal FD making somewhere around a whopping 290-300rwhp it will blow the tires off in first every time you roll on it. No need to rev or slip the clutch, a simple 5mph roll on will break the tires free every time.

Seriously look at any Sequential FD running 12psi or more and it will make more torque across the ENTIRE power curve than Logan's 428rwhp dyno. I realize his setup was optimized for high rpms but lets be honest, its the only NA 3 rotor dyno that seems to exist. I still find you NA 3 rotor guys torque and reliability comments hysterical. Sure in theory it sounds good but there is absolutely zero proof I am aware of that backs up those statements, zero. Before giving me reliability comments keep in mind I'M at 64K miles and counting on my original engine.

Hopefully one of you guys will prove me wrong and give me some reason to understand a $15k+ NA 3rotor swap for a street setup that produces a power curve I can replicate on the stock sequential twins for $2k and a weekend in the garage.

 

^ So, going to attend the event on Nov. 25th?

 

Its about 50/50 at this point. I should know by next Monday but really hope I can make it. My car is ready minus putting on some scrapable rotors and better pads, oil and spark plug change. I should probably install a larger water/meth tank as I am currently using the rear windshield washer tank reservoir and doubt it would last even one session on the track before going empty.

Gordon has gone quiet so I'm sure Logan is working hard to get his Gordon's car up to par for the event and have a good showing. Hope everyone turns up and we can really see the difference between a stock motor sequential FD and NA 20B street setup both weighing in around 27-2800lbs. Guess we will see.

 

I'm still waiting for Gordon to respond to see if he wants to run on the same wheels/tires to get a true comparison and have a 3rd party drive the cars? Otherwise it wont prove much one way or the other.

Will be interesting to dyno both the cars on the same dyno to compare the torque curves, to date I have seen zero proof showing a NA 3 rotor making better low end torque than a sequential FD. Anyone can feel free to provide evidence at anytime.

 

Funny part is after he installed the engine I built, the torque curve moved considerably to the right. It made even better low end torque on the stock ports but power fell off quite a bit up top. Even took out the almighty 3 rotor at nationals this year, of course there is a whole lot more to the formula than just the engine setup.

 

No need to scratch heads. Remember I said my stock twin turbo. Stock only puts down around 215whp (and slightly less at my elevation). My car had a perfect 10-8-10 boost pattern and never spun my tire from a roll like my 20b did that time.

 

If for whatever reason Gordon doesnt take you up on it, I'd be glad to offer my car for any type of comparo. Unfortunately it wont be ready to attend this upcoming event, but the next time maybe in the spring for sure Ill be tracking it and attending as many events as possible. My car is a good bit more track oriented than Gs though, so not really sure if it would be what you are looking for.
Win/lose, or whether others like or dislike it is fairly irrelevant to me. Once my car is broken in and getting tuned I promise to share any dyno info or whatever others may want.
And just FYI, for the most part I agree with you. Id never be one to try and talk people into the N/A 20B, if for no other reason than cost. I do think it is a great setup for mild HP levels and I like N/A power delivery.. but when I had my FD on the stock twins, M2 ecu and ~13psi the car was a blast and that was probably ~2k in mods buying nice stuff used. If/when I get a second FD Im doing that again and leaving it be.

 

Let's be real here. There's no replacement for displacement. Fact a larger displacement engine will always make more reliable LONG TERM higher up than an engine that's 50% smaller. They will also make less heat while doing it as they are more efficient at what they do. Here's and example for you. Let's say you have 2 engines making 400 hp. One engine is rated at 1.3l and the other at 2.0l. Barry Roads has combustion chamber testing equipment that will prove that the combustion chamber pressures and temperatures will be far greater in the smaller engine than the larger version to make the same exact hp as the larger engine. Fact any time you increase the combustion chambers temps and pressures, you also decrease that engines service life because it's simply more stressed. Fact that same small turbo engine may be running additional supporting components to help make it reliable (water injection, ignition amps) etc. Don't forget we don't have to worry about turbo heat, intercoolers, wastgates, perfect tunes, blow off valves, water injections, etc. All those additional components increase the chances of failure.

This is only one of the main reasons we have so many ls1 swaps going. Those engines are designed to make hp at those levels all day every day and under a lot less stress than an engine at half its displacement. Would you expect a turbo 2.4l out of an srt neon to make the same reliable 400 hp long term hp as an NA ls1? Which one do you think will be more stressed? Also just because you haven't seen a reliable NA 20b example doesn't mean they can't exist as there aren't many people building them.

Lastly you keep talking about justifying the cost. It's always gonna cost butt loads of money to do ANY customized engine conversion. I don't try to justify it but for some reason, you keep expecting us to justify the cost. I do it because I wanted to do it. My original engine lasted 108k before it blew. I could have just as easily rebuilt and modified it to make 350whp and had it back on the road years ago. That's not what I wanted to do. Instead, I wanted to pioneer a totally new intake system that would take NA potential to a whole new level. I also wanted to do something that Was unique and different and I wanted that unique exotic exhaust tone to go with it. I also wanted a lot less clutter in my engine bay. That's exactly what I got. Remember what WE 20b NA guys do only has to make sense to US and NOT everyone else.