smerkinseven

ok guys... over the weekend while driving my car, i noticed that i really don't need all that power. what i like is how quick the car is... not how fast. so now, i'm thinking about keeping the twin set-up. i was looking into the m2 ball bearing upgrade. now from what i understand, no one really likes it cause it still a seq set up.... have anyone make it non seq on the m2 upgrade... and does anyone here have the 99 up stock twin? is it as good as people say?? thanks for your time.

Jim Calandrella

You might try a search for this, as there have been some recent discussions about these turbos. I'm interested too. If I purchase them, I will try to run them non-sequencial as well.

smerkinseven

thanks for the info

radkins

Why dont you just go single? It doesnt make since to buy upgraded twins and run them Non Seq.

rynberg

I also see no point in upgrading to M2 twins if you want to run them non-sequential. Then again, I don't understand why anyone other than a dedicated road racer would run non-sequential at all.

The whole point of the M2 twins is faster spool-up and the ability to run more boost. If you run them non-sequential, you have eliminated the faster spool-up advantages and might as well get a TS04 or Apexi RX-6 single instead.

tk5dan

If you can wait like a few weeks before you choose to upgrade, it will be worth it. Artguy will have dyno sheets on the M2 upgrades and KWIKRX7 will have dyno sheets on the BNR upgrades. If the dyno's don't seem very good, then go with a single. Since you don't mind the lag of the non-seq the single lag won't be much different.

smerkinseven

yeah i'm not in hurry. my car is just sitting under the car cover right now anyways..(still waiting for parts)

jpandes

My car is Non-sequential...I would rather have it sequential - for the instant low end power - but I'm too lazy to try and trouble shoot the vacum hose issues....

redrotorR1

HELL YES. They are as good as promised ... I got the RS/RZ turbos and, just wow. The spool-up time is close to instanteous and they flow much more than the old stockers (ahem, 2 rebuilds past now ... yes, lesson learned). Flow enough that they spike up to 12psi (DP, catback ... that's it) and hold around 11psi. Until the secondary kicks in and it starts to boost creep to 14-15 psi!!! The colder weather makes it even better/worse .

But yes, the above posts are correct. If you like the quickness of the car, do NOT go non-sequential. The lag gets worse and the car will feel like a dog below 3500 rpm. At any rate, the pricing between the turbos is about the same. The efficiency improvements in the '99 spec turbos allow you to run higher boost, so you could run 14-15 psi fairly easily with the '99s. The M2 ball bearing turbo upgrades can run even higher amounts of boost though. They're both effectively doing the same thing: reducing the turbine wheel diameter and increasing the flow by manipulating the compressor wheel (adding fins, bigger wheel, etc). I don't think you can go wrong either way ...

Inquisitor

If you like the "quicknes" of the car why not look elsewhere then the turbos to improve that quickness. Assumming you have the common mods of full exhaust air filter etc, how about upgrading your gearbox. Change the pinion gear to 4.5 or 4.7 and have a think about altering the gear ratios to suit your driving style or ambition.

You can look at your suspension to have the qhickness in and out of corners. After market springs, suspension, sway bars and strut braces are all options.

Look at improving how fast you build the revs. Under driven pulleys and a lightened flywheel will help these areas.

There are a lot more avenues to modifying a car then just looking into after market turbos. Hopefully this has given you something to consider.

1FooknTiteFD

I fail to realize why anyone would pay $3000 for an upgraded twin turbos when you can go single for that amount and get rid of all the unneccessary vacuum hoses and all the solenoids which always fail with sequential twins. Also, I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN ANY DYNO SHEETS yet with the M2 BB which justifies it's hefty $3000 price tag. I'd rather get the XS T04E or something for less than $3000

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I don't think you can REALLY go single for $2995. That 3k is just the BEGINING. Most kits are around $3500 (for decent ones) and i've never seen a kit that is a direct bolt-on in the way that M2 or other upgraded twins are.

You gotta pay to have thae wastedate dump tube merged into the DP. You may need a different wastegate right off the bat (RX6B).

What are you gonna do about a blow off valve? How about a custom electric air pump so you can pass emissions?

How about having someone weld up some IC piping if you've got anything but the FMIC (wouldn't put one on MY car) the kits are usually inteded for... and likely a greddy elbow?

Not to mention you have to know WHAT to remove from all of the vaccuum/solonoid stuff, and but block-off plates. AND be able to do all this custom/install stuff yourself as opposed to reinstalling what you just took off and is in the factory manual.

I know of a few folks who have gone single.. one guy w/ an RX6 like yours, and it almost always involves some custom work, re-engineering, and serious downtime to do it right. And $$$

You are correct, there is no dyno info on M2s, but the concept and seat-of-the-pants reports are promising. AND, i believe that the quick-spooling nature of them might prove to produce a quicker car ON THE ROAD, than the high peak-hp singles that look good on dynos. I totally understand your misgivings, and i'm certainly not trying to get on your case... just pointing out that before everyone dismisses M2s as a too expensive waste of time, lets recognize that they have potential, and likely are cheaper and a hell of alot less hasle than a single. I can't wait to see some dyno sheets on them.

smerkinseven

thanks for all the info guys.... no if i were to do a hose job and upgrade to a either the 99 spec or the m2's, i should not have too much problems with the vaccuum and stuff right..??

artguy

I dont have any problems with vacuum....

1fook fails to realize that there are people on here with cars who hate waiting for the power band...if you go single you got big lag..same thing goes if you run non seq......if you go m2 you have your power NOW...and thats how I like it...more boost...more power...and more response.

it was a learning experience being one of the first guys with the set...but there are more people running them now and more shops with experience tuning for them..not that that should have ever been an issue because tuning is not rocket science..was easy actually..just patient.

I really like the set. I love the instant respone of the m2 bb twins and would not ever go with anything else. I drive in the city and while going single would be fun and would simplify things I feel that it would be better for the country or open roads...I dont ever get that sort of thing in Orange County or LA and spend most my time darting around town and shredding tires from stoplight to stoplight.

1fook wanted evidence of their power...ask go racer..he saw my car fishtailing like a friggen king salmon when I upped the boost to 16lbs. I cant run more than 15 on stock tires....punching it in second gear breaks my yokohama autox tires loose like they are 80 dollar kumhos.


it is fun...if that is what you want...fun...then its worth your money.


and they run cooler than the jspec or any other shaft bearing setup...lots cooler...and lower engine bay temps are something I am always after.


j


good luck


j

redrotorR1

Great point to bring up. The lightened flywheel will make the car feel super quick. The springs, shocks, sway bars, and tower strut braces will give the car a firmer feel and more grip in corners ... but don't play with that stuff on the street. Leave that stuff for the track.

Jim Calandrella

The reason that I would want to run the M2's non sequencial is to get rid of vacuum hoses. The reason i'm even tempted by the M2's is the ability to make more power without changing my setup drastically. I'm aware that there would be more lag. I'm still thinking about it.
KD can get me into a Garret(I don't know the exact model ) for $3,000. That's just the turbo though, not a kit. So there will inevitably be more work to be done. I really need to pass inspection, so that is the only reason I even investigate twins. I love the fast spool up of the sequencial, but there is not much support for 7's in Boston, and i'm tired of problems with the car. I'm looking to simplify it, which is the reason i'm interested in non sequencial.
I'll probably go single. No lag is a wonderfull thing though. Ah decisions decisions. Seeing someone actually pass emissions of some kind with a single would sell me.

1FooknTiteFD

what power band? You want spool so that there is boost at 2000rpms? what for are you going to race between 2000-4000rpms? Most racing is done at high rpm's anyways, having boost coming in at higher rpm's is usually no consequence. Also with a single, at higher rpms it is a lot more responsive than twins. plus the feeling of boost of a sudden kicking in is euphoric

well, it's actually a lot easier to install than most people would think. It's probably easier to install than swapping out the stock twins for another set.


my rx6 kit bolted right in, and it allows me to retain the airpump (provided I wanted to) and it involved no custom work except for making the intercooler piping and also welding an aftermarket blow off valve onto the piping.

SHOW ME THE MONEY! I wanna see a friggen dyno sheet already! I can make a bone stock FD fishtail that doesn't mean anything to me until I get numbers. How long has the M2 kit been out now? The only numbers I've seen were capt bill's and his car was not running right at the time

in my opinion if you are going to upgrade turbos you might as well go single...not only is your car drastically simpler, you also get lower water temperatures, lower underhood temperatures, and less turbo failure as well. Also the car is a lot easier to work on underneath the hood (if you ever need to do an engine swap) and also a lot more fun to drive as well. Seriously, lag is overrated...I got the RX6 thinking that I would hate lag, but if I could do it over again, I would have gone something bigger and more powerful!

Jim Calandrella

You have to admit that you got a single with a rock solid reputation of having no lag. I think some people want to make a little more power than the RX6 can really make. There is no question that other single turbos(capable of more power) will lag more than yours will.
Don't get me wrong though, I agree with everything you've said. It's just that some people are going to see lag issues a little differently than you will. You have a great all around set up.

redrotorR1

This argument is all about application. Street driving, auto-x, road racing ... it's all academic. IMO, if you're looking for big power, then singles are the best, most reliable route for it. Consequently, the power delivery makes for a very difficult car on an auto-x course or a road racing circuit. I've yet to see a competitive single-turbo'd RX-7 at an auto-x event. The sequential twins have a proven record for performance in organized racing ... albeit a very spotty maintenance history. If you're going to try and run lots of boost in non-sequential mode, I wouldn't stop at M2. There are other reputable shops that can do the reduced turbine wheel/BIG compressor wheel combo.

Useable power is another story. What I'd like to see is lap times for both a sequential twin setup and a mid/big single setup on a road course. Who's faster and why ...

kwikrx7

What people fail to mention with running non-sequential or even single turbo is that it is not as streetable as running sequential. People really need to drive or ride in all 3 cars (single, seq, and non-seq) to appreciate why Mazda put in a sequential system. If you're into drag racing and highway runs only - go non-seq or single. If your into day-to-day driving, stop and go, autocrossing, and street racing, sequential is king. I raced a BPU+ Supra one time from 55-120 while I was non-sequential (stock twins)...I was in 3rd gear and out of my power range and downshifting to second probably would have cost me time since I would have to shift again quick. The Supra pulled a car since I was waiting for boost..I eventually reeled him in and past him at 110 mph, but if I was sequential I would have owned him. Sequential cars get boost immediately and as you guys will soon see in the dyno runs, upgraded twins will have immediate power at almost any rpms.

Bryan has my turbos apart now and is putting in the dynamic seals for even faster spooling and more reliability. The rat's nest is a pain but I haven't had any trouble with it while I was sequential for 2 years. I guess it all depends what you want out the car. To me, and upgraded twin sequential FD is the ultimate street car out there.

Jim Calandrella

Very interesting. You have to wait for boost after everytime you shift? That was a very good real life example. In that one post, you might have persuaded me to stay sequencial. If I could make close to 400 at the wheels with a sequencial, I might not go single. I do believe that single is healthier for the car though.

artguy

btw ****...you forgot to mention that the rx6 just went up in price by almost two thousand dollars if I remember correctly...talk about over priced! what is it now 4800 or 5000 dollars???

it was a bargain when **** picked it up...easily my favorite single turbo for the money a few months ago.

however...i dont use my car only for racing...I use my car for darting around and having fun...I like immediate boost and if I have boost at 2k then Im happy...If I have full boost at 26-2800 rpms then Im extremely happy.

I very much enjoy being able to gun it at any point...If I get on it at 3k and have to wait for spool then the lane I want to be in is already closing up...if I have to downshift to get in the higher rpms then that lane is closing up. I agree very much that it all depends on what you want to do with the car.

if you want to autox then the m2 set would do well for you...response response response...if you want to run at the track then singles rule right? no arguing that. If I lived in the back woods a single would be a blast...but I dont...I live in the city and I want a fast fun car that tears it up.

I really feel that going non seq or single takes the spirit out of what mazda intended the car to be...they put small sequentials on for a reason...that is WHY I went with this car...the m2 set enhances all that mazda intended the car to be IMHO...at least in my mind.

but to each their own..what is right for me may not be right for you...each of you have to decide if you want to upgrade...what is it that you want the car to be?

each direction has their positives and negatives..weigh them out. I did and am happy with my decision. I wouldnt do it any other way. I got what I paid for.


jason

Jim Calandrella

Do you have any idea what kind of power you're putting down?

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Fookn

As far as i've heard, the RX6 kit that allowed the use of the airpump is new (if it even here yet). My friend had to fab something up w/ a GM electric pump. AND if you get it w/ the wastegate plumbed to the downpipe, it ain't 'xactly 3k... And everyones wastegate fails and requires you purchase a Tial or other. Getting IC pipes weled up aint cheap either. Its IS a GREAT setup, but based on my friends experience, its not perfect out of the box.

And YES, i do want emediate boost response. Ever raced an LSI or other big displacement car from a roll? IF i loose, its in the first couple of split seconds where i'm waiting for boost, and the LSI torque gives it an instant car lenggth or two for me to make up, and i can't always do it... THATs what i want to avoid... after it comes on, i'm as fast as most anything...

artguy

hopefully I will know soon.

a local guy here put down 351 at 14lbs on his m2 set I believe...if anyone is well connected at xs they can possibly call and see if xs has a copy of that dyno tuning session..they did the tuning for him.....the guys first name is greg..he has a sweet red third gen running the m2 setup. I can see if i can get ahold of him as well so we can put this to a rest.

that is the bottom of the efficiency range for those turbos as well..they really wake up at 16lbs plus. should put him at 400hp at 19lbs of boost..just as m2 promised. (m2 claims 400 to the wheels at 20lbs of boost)

I would call xs and ask them but I refuse to deal with them after they nearly blew up my car with their junk tuning on my pfc. When I think of detonation I think of xs and that is not a good mix for me.

perhaps **** can get a hold of that info from xs...he has had good experiences with them...it would be great to see.


j