Lets talk about Lapping and Nitrating
01-21-09, 09:46 PM
#1
Lets talk about Lapping and Nitrating
Hey guys, we all know the logistics about why we need to lap and after why should nitrate if we take more than .003" from the irons.
I'm posting to find who did BOTH of your services. I've talked with MazdaTrix and they only do lapping and do not offer nitrating. They only take .003" and claim there's enough of the hardened surface to retain its purpose. If I'm guessing right I don't think that Racing Beat nitrates either as they also only list lapping on their website.
Please don't discuss "I think so and so does it." I want concrete sources and how well the job came out. Keeping the stationary gear bore true to the surface is where experience and quality comes in. I'm just bringing up this as people fail to state who's done both of the services in house. Thanks in advance for your time and efforts.
-Lance Mayhon
I'm posting to find who did BOTH of your services. I've talked with MazdaTrix and they only do lapping and do not offer nitrating. They only take .003" and claim there's enough of the hardened surface to retain its purpose. If I'm guessing right I don't think that Racing Beat nitrates either as they also only list lapping on their website.
Please don't discuss "I think so and so does it." I want concrete sources and how well the job came out. Keeping the stationary gear bore true to the surface is where experience and quality comes in. I'm just bringing up this as people fail to state who's done both of the services in house. Thanks in advance for your time and efforts.
-Lance Mayhon
01-21-09, 10:23 PM
#3
FD > FB > FC
pineapple racing offers nitrating. Its a nitrating dip, so the whole cast iron piece becomes nitrated.
Ive never had it done, but I know someothers have. Perhaps they'll chime in.
Ive never had it done, but I know someothers have. Perhaps they'll chime in.
12-30-10, 05:00 AM
#6
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I had my housings milled flat at a machine shop ($150), I finish lapped with a gauging compound to get the RA down to a good finish..then I sent the housings to Mid South Metallurgical in Murfreesboro, TN for Ion Nitriding....cost of nitriding was $250 and they did an awesome job.
http://www.midsouthmetallurgical.com/
Make sure you take out your Oil line plugs and freeze plugs from the housings....the nitriding will change the struture of the plug (since its a different material) and the plugs will become loose in the housing and they leak or fall out.... from experience, my oil line plugs popped out...and trying to stake a hardened housing is tough...(Crack n Chips!) just an FYI1
http://www.midsouthmetallurgical.com/
Make sure you take out your Oil line plugs and freeze plugs from the housings....the nitriding will change the struture of the plug (since its a different material) and the plugs will become loose in the housing and they leak or fall out.... from experience, my oil line plugs popped out...and trying to stake a hardened housing is tough...(Crack n Chips!) just an FYI1
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12-30-10, 11:08 AM
#9
if the housings aren't worn beyond spec it's not critical to lap the irons.
the stock nitrite coating is about .010" thick, basically you can take off about .007" before the material should be retreated if you want to retain the nitrite coating which isn't even necessary but the irons will wear faster once the coating is gone. mazdatrix and racing beat have been around forever and do not nitrite, this is a hint that it isn't a huge necessity to retain unless you plan on going another 150-200k with your engine.
i do lapping for $70 per iron face but don't do nitrite treating. another alternative may be nickel-sil coating which is often found in 2 stroke piston engine applications and may be more readily available than nitrite treating is. i however have not tested that the side seals will not cause adverse affects on nickel-sil coatings BUT the stock side seals are made of a very similar material if not the same as conventional piston rings are so in theory it should be fine.
i have also often thought about sending a few rotor housings out to see if nickelsil will bond well with the chrome plating to repair worn housings back within spec. it is more bondable than the ceramics that others have tried and failed with.
the stock nitrite coating is about .010" thick, basically you can take off about .007" before the material should be retreated if you want to retain the nitrite coating which isn't even necessary but the irons will wear faster once the coating is gone. mazdatrix and racing beat have been around forever and do not nitrite, this is a hint that it isn't a huge necessity to retain unless you plan on going another 150-200k with your engine.
i do lapping for $70 per iron face but don't do nitrite treating. another alternative may be nickel-sil coating which is often found in 2 stroke piston engine applications and may be more readily available than nitrite treating is. i however have not tested that the side seals will not cause adverse affects on nickel-sil coatings BUT the stock side seals are made of a very similar material if not the same as conventional piston rings are so in theory it should be fine.
i have also often thought about sending a few rotor housings out to see if nickelsil will bond well with the chrome plating to repair worn housings back within spec. it is more bondable than the ceramics that others have tried and failed with.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-30-10 at 11:17 AM.
12-30-10, 03:46 PM
#10
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if the housings aren't worn beyond spec it's not critical to lap the irons.
the stock nitrite coating is about .010" thick, basically you can take off about .007" before the material should be retreated if you want to retain the nitrite coating which isn't even necessary but the irons will wear faster once the coating is gone. mazdatrix and racing beat have been around forever and do not nitrite, this is a hint that it isn't a huge necessity to retain unless you plan on going another 150-200k with your engine.
i do lapping for $70 per iron face but don't do nitrite treating. another alternative may be nickel-sil coating which is often found in 2 stroke piston engine applications and may be more readily available than nitrite treating is. i however have not tested that the side seals will not cause adverse affects on nickel-sil coatings BUT the stock side seals are made of a very similar material if not the same as conventional piston rings are so in theory it should be fine.
i have also often thought about sending a few rotor housings out to see if nickelsil will bond well with the chrome plating to repair worn housings back within spec. it is more bondable than the ceramics that others have tried and failed with.
the stock nitrite coating is about .010" thick, basically you can take off about .007" before the material should be retreated if you want to retain the nitrite coating which isn't even necessary but the irons will wear faster once the coating is gone. mazdatrix and racing beat have been around forever and do not nitrite, this is a hint that it isn't a huge necessity to retain unless you plan on going another 150-200k with your engine.
i do lapping for $70 per iron face but don't do nitrite treating. another alternative may be nickel-sil coating which is often found in 2 stroke piston engine applications and may be more readily available than nitrite treating is. i however have not tested that the side seals will not cause adverse affects on nickel-sil coatings BUT the stock side seals are made of a very similar material if not the same as conventional piston rings are so in theory it should be fine.
i have also often thought about sending a few rotor housings out to see if nickelsil will bond well with the chrome plating to repair worn housings back within spec. it is more bondable than the ceramics that others have tried and failed with.
12-31-10, 04:36 PM
#12
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if the housings aren't worn beyond spec it's not critical to lap the irons.
the stock nitrite coating is about .010" thick, basically you can take off about .007" before the material should be retreated if you want to retain the nitrite coating which isn't even necessary but the irons will wear faster once the coating is gone. mazdatrix and racing beat have been around forever and do not nitrite, this is a hint that it isn't a huge necessity to retain unless you plan on going another 150-200k with your engine.
i do lapping for $70 per iron face but don't do nitrite treating. another alternative may be nickel-sil coating which is often found in 2 stroke piston engine applications and may be more readily available than nitrite treating is. i however have not tested that the side seals will not cause adverse affects on nickel-sil coatings BUT the stock side seals are made of a very similar material if not the same as conventional piston rings are so in theory it should be fine.
i have also often thought about sending a few rotor housings out to see if nickelsil will bond well with the chrome plating to repair worn housings back within spec. it is more bondable than the ceramics that others have tried and failed with.
the stock nitrite coating is about .010" thick, basically you can take off about .007" before the material should be retreated if you want to retain the nitrite coating which isn't even necessary but the irons will wear faster once the coating is gone. mazdatrix and racing beat have been around forever and do not nitrite, this is a hint that it isn't a huge necessity to retain unless you plan on going another 150-200k with your engine.
i do lapping for $70 per iron face but don't do nitrite treating. another alternative may be nickel-sil coating which is often found in 2 stroke piston engine applications and may be more readily available than nitrite treating is. i however have not tested that the side seals will not cause adverse affects on nickel-sil coatings BUT the stock side seals are made of a very similar material if not the same as conventional piston rings are so in theory it should be fine.
i have also often thought about sending a few rotor housings out to see if nickelsil will bond well with the chrome plating to repair worn housings back within spec. it is more bondable than the ceramics that others have tried and failed with.
12-31-10, 08:48 PM
#13
Damn nobody in Texas? My large center housing on my 20b has a high dark spot on both sides. I'm not in full need to lap right this minuet but, it's nice to know who does it closer to where I live. I absolutely refuse to ship that particular housing anywhere.
01-01-11, 09:41 PM
#14
^Ship it to me. I'm working with a company that just finished their prototype rotary lapping machine.
The good news is I've NEVER seen lapping this good EVER! The band news is the machine won't won't be fully assembled for another two months...
Have you measured the side-seal wear?
The good news is I've NEVER seen lapping this good EVER! The band news is the machine won't won't be fully assembled for another two months...
Have you measured the side-seal wear?
01-02-11, 10:55 PM
#16
^Ship it to me. I'm working with a company that just finished their prototype rotary lapping machine.
The good news is I've NEVER seen lapping this good EVER! The band news is the machine won't won't be fully assembled for another two months...
Have you measured the side-seal wear?
The good news is I've NEVER seen lapping this good EVER! The band news is the machine won't won't be fully assembled for another two months...
Have you measured the side-seal wear?
Side seals are new. Everything else internaly is stock while I do all my experiments.
Does this company's machine work like this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB-nA...eature=related
This is a very nice set-up!
01-03-11, 08:18 AM
#18
Side seals are new. Everything else internaly is stock while I do all my experiments.
Does this company's machine work like this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB-nA...eature=related
This is a very nice set-up!
Does this company's machine work like this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB-nA...eature=related
This is a very nice set-up!
01-03-11, 02:16 PM
#20
Sorry about that, I didn't comprehend that right off because of how low mileage my engine is. I don't usually worry about lapping until plates start reaching over 100k. Hell the step wear on my orginal fd engine with 108k is still well with-in factory spec. I figure since my one thick 20b center plate has that smallish bump, I may as well lap all the plates to keep everything even.
01-03-11, 04:37 PM
#21
Rotary Freak
That lapping machine is a Kemet ^^^, I'd imagine there must be representation and users over there. A Blanchard grinder in reasonable nick would be another good option.
01-03-11, 04:41 PM
#22
I can also have eroded water passages and cracked dowel pin lands or even a whole cracked plate (yes a whole plate).
You're lucky to have such good experiences with irons. I blame faulty OMPor nasty PFC maps with low oiler settings floating around on some of the irons I get to see. I really wish I had the time to finish my motor with this NEW half bridge port I've been working on...
You're lucky to have such good experiences with irons. I blame faulty OMPor nasty PFC maps with low oiler settings floating around on some of the irons I get to see. I really wish I had the time to finish my motor with this NEW half bridge port I've been working on...
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