Ok, I sometimes think way to much, I know that. But I was thinking, what if our coolant system worked a little differently?
Here is the setup I was thinking, the coolant would be stored in an unpressurized cooling chamber, (picture a small, but thick intercooler with vertical fins, and modified for coolant flow) perhaps located in one of the side openings of the front bumper. At the bottom of this chamber there would be a line out, which would lead to an inline, electric waterpump. The coolant would then flow through the motor, into the radiator, and then dump into the cooling chamber (intercooler) via a valve set at a certain psi.
The entry to the chamber could be modified to vaporize or spray the incoming liquid, it would then condense and partially fill the cooling chamber. The "cooling chamber" could be vented to the stock coolant overflow so no pressure will build up.

Here is the idea behind it. If the coolant is allowed to expand, and partially evaporate inside this chamber, the "dew" on the inside walls of the "cooling chamber" would be allowed to cool down much faster.
Plus the pressure in the system would be maintained by an electric pump, rather than heat buildup.

This seems like it could replace the radiator, if a large enough unit was used. Plus it would look trick as hell.

Now hit me with it, am I a retard or could it work?

 

I could be a little bit off on this, but if I remember correctly, your cooling system needs to be pressurized because it causes the boiling point of the coolant to increase. Otherwise your coolant would start to boil which would cause foaming and air pockets throughout the system. As we all know an air pocket in the cooling system will also create hot spots allowing uneven expansion and contraction of the aluminum casing potentially warping it over time which would also lead to oil leaks and premature engine failure.

It is an interesting thought, but why try to reinvent the wheel.

If I'm wrong on any of this, I'm sure you guys will let me know.

 

Is foaming bad? Not to highjack, but mine was foaming the other day after I checked it when I checked the level after a AWS start. about 20 secs of running. It pushed out the cap when I took it off and was really foamy...

 

Does it overheat at all? It could be just old or cheap coolant. A good coolant will have an anti-foaming agent to help prevent it from doing so. I'd say to do a drain and flush and replace with some good coolant.

 

sounds like a bad water seal to me. thats pretty much what it does. . . called "the champagne bubbles of death"

paul

 

when the coolant is vented into the cooling chamber it flashes to steam because its now over its boiling point at that pressure. gas takes up much more volume than liquid. where does all that pressure go?

 

The cooling system capacity is determined largely by how much heat the radiator can remove from the system. If you replace the radiator with a partially gas-filled chamber, it isn't going to reject as much heat as a coolant-filled radiator of the same size and you will not have much cooling capacity. In other words, I don't think it will work.

-Max

 

Remember, most of the system would still be pressurized.

However the cooling chamber is not.

If it were to flash to steam, this system would cool better.
The smaller particles of water would collect inside the upper portion of the cooling chamber, and condense on the walls of the cooler. The heat would be drawn away from the small particles much faster than pure liquid.
The particles would then condense, and then run down through a baffled plate, into the lower section of the cooler, which would be full of liquid. The baffle would help keep the bubbles out of the system, as well as keep the liquid in the lower chamber (at the pump), during hard cornering.

This baffling method would effectively make it an air seperator too.

The chamber could be vented to the overflow tank, or something similar, to prevent pressure build up.

I will draw something up today and post a pic so that you guys can see more clearly what I am talking about.

 

I'm confused.. Maybe the drawing will help...

 

The goal isn't to cool a small amount of coolant quickly, though. It is to remove as much heat as possible from the system as a whole. I still think a full radiator is going to dump more heat than a partially-full radiator-like-device. I still don't totally understand the idea, though, so I look forward to the pictures as an explanation.

-Max

 

If I'm picturing your system correctly, it's like the cooling towers used in factories. The liquid will vaporize and then condense back to liquid, cooling more efficiently because the vapor droplets have more surface area to dissipate heat.

However, in an automotive environment, the condensation won't take place, because you won't be able to remove that much heat from the system without increasing the size of your cooling chamber beyond the space available in the engine bay.

And besides that, how are you going to change the system from pressurized to non-pressurized and then back to pressurized again? I don't believe that's possible.

I would have more faith in a peltier system of some sort, but I'm not sure if that would work either because those make the hot side hotter and the cold side cooler; you'd be introducing even more heat into the engine bay.


-s-

 

The switch from pressurized to unpressurized would happen at the inlet of the cooler. There would be a valve which would open up at a certain psi, (much like a relief cap, albeit a lower psi), and allow the coolant to flow inside of the cooling chamber. The upper neck of the cooling chamber would then be vented to a coolant overflow tank. Sure some steam would collect in there, but it could be pulled into the pressurized part of the system during cooldown.

The inline electric water pump would keep pressure on the system.

Basically here is the cycle:

there is a water source (the lower chamber of the cooler)

the water is pumped into the motor via inline electric w/p

pressure builds against the inlet of the cooling chamber

desired psi is reached and water sprays into cooler

water condenses on walls of cooler

water runs downward through a baffling section,

water fills lower storage chamber of cooler where the cycle began

pressure buildup is released to a catch tank

there are electric water pumps more than capable of keeping pressure up in a system like this. And with the pressure actuated valve at the inlet, this solves the mystery of a 2 stage system like this.

Actually, you know now that I think about it, the flow pattern of this system is similar to a fuel system, where there is a pressurized system and an unpressurized return tank.

Oh, and vapors and gases cool MUCH MUCH faster than liquid, especially when it is a liquid allowed to depressurize into a gas. This has a cooling effect by itself. All of these properties combined could be the workings of a good coolant system. Or at least one would think.

I need to get that pic up.

 

Not to highjack your thread but while we're on the topic, I always wondered why they don't make (or maybe they do) a guage to monitor the pressure of your cooling system. Obviously if your parked and something pops, you'll know it because you'll see steam, but if your moving (as is usually the case) it's harder to see and if you keep driving, as we all know, your engine will blow.

 

Sounds great to me, try it out and report back. Just remember to keep the temps around the 85-90C temp so that you get optimal combustion.....of course that is about the same temp you'll get with a $400 alum drop in radiator. But try it out anyway and let us know how it turns out

STEPHEN

 

But the problem is the flow of heat out of the cooling chamber. Heat flows out of a radiator much faster than it will flow out of a cooling chamber. So perhaps you get a whisp of coolant vapors to cool down really fast in the cooling chamber, but the total amount of heat removed from the system is very small when compared to a simple raditor with air blowing on it. Or perhaps I still don't get it. By what mechanism does heat flow out of the cooling chamber? And how does that heat flow compare to what you get with a radiator?

-Max

 

doesnt a fd boil water anyway? thats what the ast is for right?

 

Well, I finally made this bitch. I hope this helps explain what I am thinking a little better.
I hope I didn't leave anything out.

 

I know its porportions are funny, but I just cut and pasted some **** I already had to make it quick. The whole thing should really be a square, or a rectangle, not chopped up like it is. I will probably make another one that is more detailed and accurate, but for now, this serves the purpose.

 

cool idea, I don't know if it would work but I like the creativity envolve. Champagne bubbles of death is such a great name, too bad I've got the little bastards, its rebuild time....

 

Hmm, interesting idea, I like it but I'm still curious as to whether or not it will work in the confined spaces that are available to us. When you say 'condensation' , you realize that means something condensing from a vapor to a gas, right? How is the water becoming vapor? Hopefully not inside the motor...

BTW, thanks for explaining on the pressurized>>non-press.>>pressurized system, that's good to know.

-s-

 

I don't know... I say you need to turn the problem around tell me how your system will do a better job of heating the air that passes through it.

 

it would work IF the coolant wasnt above its boiling temp. like i was saying before the coolant will boil when sprayed into the chamber. this will create a lot of pressure. if you vent off this pressure you lose a lot of coolant as steam.

 

There really isn't a huge amount of difference here compared to a standard heat exchanger. You're *still* using a heat exchanger to create condensation.

I mean this basically reminds me of an A/C system.

Anyways, I do not think this system is capable of keeping up with the flow requirements of a cooling system. You can't just let the coolant medium slowly move through the water jacket while the condensing section takes it's sweet time.

Also, it's MORE complex than a simple heat exchanger.

coolant medium <-> aluminum <-> airflow.

KISS concept.

 

Maybe the system could cycle water faster, so that the boiling point of the water is never reached.

The inlet of the cooling chamber could spray a large volume of mist, which would be what condensed on the walls of the cooler.

Condensation is basically reverse osmosis. The water wouldn't be boiling, so there would be no vapor or steam, however spray would collect and condense, back into liquid.

Basically it is a spot to allow the air and water to mix, so as to decrease its density, thus allowing more rapid heat transfer to happen.

The lower portion of the chamber would almost act like a radiator. Basically a storage chamber with cooling fins.

 

The idea is that smaller particles of water will cool faster than larger quantities of water. As well, the depressurization of a liquid into a mist has a cooling effect itself.

I am hoping, if this were designed with the right dimensions, and with proper water flow in mind, it would be more efficient at cooling water than the current setup.